The False Teaching and Unbiblical Spiritual Enterprises of The New Religious Right, Word of Faith, and the New Apostolic Reformation
Welcome to the program. Glad you're with us. I've set aside today's topic because of information that came my way that I – we need to discuss. So I turned all my attention on to this this morning. And I'm gonna play a lot of sound clips for you, and we're gonna talk about something that is not new to this program. We've talked about it before. But I must say it greatly distresses me what I see happening.
It's really ironic that we've just released our DVDs and mailed out hundreds and hundreds of them yesterday – and more going today – of the Religious Trojan Horse, 4 ½‑hour DVDs that we've filmed thus far and that I'm working on a book by this title. It's really ironic that I started writing this book and as I started researching all this, it kinda opened up to me in as far as what's happening. And it's really kinda ironic that I'm writing a book on this topic when this is all happening right now.
I don't – maybe I would have paid attention to it, maybe I wouldn't. I don't know. But I'm sure am glad I did 'cause I really am distressed for the church. I'm very, very concerned. I'm very bothered. And I want to present this program today in as loving a manner as I can. I am not looking to make it personal. I'm not looking to be unkind. I'm not looking to be harsh. I am just trying to basically do what I think is best, not only for the church but for some of these people that I'm gonna mention today.
I don't want to see them have their credibility undermined. I don't want to see their influence diminished. I don't want to see the Gospel lowered above all. And I'm very distressed at this religious Trojan Horse, and that's indeed what it is. I've written this article or, actually, I posted on our website today the – last night I did – the letter that I receive from this well-known Christian leader two weeks today, and my response to him. And I did receive confirmation he received my letter. But now, two weeks have passed and I have not received a response to him – from him, my letter to him as I asked for.
And so I went ahead – and I'm not naming the gentleman so please don't make guesses. I'm not playing the guessing with you. He's an older gentleman; he's pretty much off the stage now. And he e‑mailed me privately and it would not be right for me to name him because he e‑mailed me privately with his concerns when he could have blasted me publicly. So there's nothing to be gained by making this about personalities. There are actually facts I think would distract from the ultimate purpose, and that is not to make this about personalities but to make this about biblical principles.
And so I have posted on our website at WorldviewTimes.com – or you can go WorldviewWeekend.com and click on the Worldview Times division where we keep our articles and news – his – a portion of his letter to me – because I had to remove some; otherwise it would identify him – and a portion of my response to him. So his letter to me, a portion of it, and then a portion of my response to him. Now, some of you heard it right on the air the other day, but that's there now. And the article is titled "Christians that Partner with False Teachers and think they're defending Liberty for the Sake of the Gospel are compromising the Gospel for the Sake of Liberty."
That's the title of my article in which these two letters are there. Now, I worked on this till quite late last night, making sure I got any out of his letter or mine that would identify this gentleman 'cause I don't want to do that. We've got to do these things right. If we're gonna be involved in these things, we've got to do them right. We've gotta do them as lovingly and kind as we can because to do anything less is not biblical. It is – would really reveal wrong motives. It also would be a horrible witness to the unsaved that we, as Christians, cannot deal with each other on public issues in a public way with a Christian attitude.
Now, these are not private issues, so these are not Matthew 18 issues folks. Matthew 18 is about private issue. This is a public issue. These are public people, public figures, engaging in conferences and speaking with others, who I clearly believe are false teach, which is, again, a clear violation of Scripture, 2 Corinthians 6:14, 2 John 9-11 and many other Scriptures we can give. So it's kind of ironic that last night I was working on posting this new article and then, this morning, in some of my daily research and the websites I normally go to, just see what's going on when I wake up in the morning, I find this very distressing information.
And that is that Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council will be, according to Rick Joyner's ministry, the Oak Initiative – and he also has MorningStar. Tony Perkins will be speaking for his conference. April 14th through the 16th is the conference, and the website says that the speaker Thursday night, April 14th at 7:00 PM will be Tony Perkins, President of the Washington, DC-based Family Research Council. Now, I called the organization of Rick Joyner this morning and said, "Is this true? Is he really – Tony Perkins going to be speaking for your conference?" And they said – the receptionist said, "Yes, that's true."
I've noticed – now, I can't find it any longer on the website of Rick Joyner and I asked why? And they said, "Well, they're not releasing that information now." But it had been released at, obviously, another time. Must have been because I found a copy of it on another site. But I did confirm with the receptionist that Tony Perkins is gonna be speaking. And other folks, of course, that will be there, according to the website are, of course, Rick Joyner, Janet Porter, Alan Keyes – oh there's Tony Perkins' picture right there – and others.
Now, again, those of you who don't know who Rick Joyner is, he is part of The New Apostolic Reformation. He was on the video of the installation of Todd Bentley as an apostle. And you – all you gotta do is put that into a search engine and you'll find it, Todd Bentley being commissioned as an apostle by C. Peter Wagner. And, on the video, I saw Rick Joyner there for that. Rick Joyner is the one – if you'll go onto video clips, you'll see Rick Joyner talking extensively about his restoring Todd Bentley to ministry. Now, again, we've gone over what The New Apostolic Reformation is all about, extra Bible revelations, talking to angels – that's very suspect to me, very suspect.
Sure, some people have entertained angels unaware, but when you claim to be talking to angels and you're getting an unbiblical message, then what are you doing? Who are you talking to? That's my question. Either you're not talking to an angel and you're not being honest, what – and what does that make you? Two, you're hallucinating, so what are you doing to do that. Three, you're talking to a demon. What are you doing to encounter that demon? I mean you start going through the scenarios. What is it? If, indeed, they are not lying. They really are talking to what they think is an angel and it's giving them a message contrary to Scripture, then who are they talking to?
But Rick Joyner is restoring the ministry of Todd Bentley on the Lakeland Revival, who, again, according to all the reports and even the videos – you can watch them of Rick Joyner talking about in talking with Bentley. Ran off and left his wife – according to all the news reports we have and the videos we've watched – and already married another woman, and all the crazy things that he's been involved in, and Nightline has talked about it and done specials on it. And we'll play some clips of that.
So Rick Joyner's obviously involved in this. So why, pray tell, would someone like Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council go and speak for these people. Why are these people continuingly – why is the Religious Right leaders, why are the leaders of the – and I don't use Religious as the majority as the left does. Why are leaders of – I'm trying to think of another word other than Religious Right because that's often used as a pejorative.
But why are leaders of many of the pro-family groups – that's what – that's a good way. Why are many of the leaders of the pro-family groups merging with these guys? What is to be gained? Nothing is to be gained, nothing at all. All you gotta do is read some of the websites out there, what's the media's saying and you realize is that nothing's to be gained. What you're losing is your credibility. Not to mention, I believe, you're propping up false teachers, which, again, is why I have the article I posted last night, "Christians that Partner with False Teachers and think they're defending Liberty for the Sake of the Gospel are compromising the Gospel for the Sake of Liberty."
So I was really kinda shocked. But then as I did some more research, I actually found this. And this is Tony Perkins appearing on MorningStarTV.com. Listen to what Tony Perkins says on MorningStarTV. This is a TV program, as I understand it – MorningStarTV.com – of Rick Joyner and his ministry. Listen to this:
[Beginning of Clip]
What we have to have now are people who understand the difference between right and wrong and are willing to stand for that truth in an increasingly hostile society. The point is people think politics is dirty, that this is a dirty business. As Christians, we should not dirty our hands in this. Let me tell you why it's dirty. Because Christians aren't in it. When we – if we want righteous government, if we want good government, we gotta put good people in it. And that's what we need today. We need men who rightly discern the times and can rightly divide the Word of God and provide solutions to the problems that America is facing.
[End of Clip]
What did he just say, "rightly divide the Word of God"? We need men governing who can "discern the times and rightly divide the Word of God." Tony, I agree with you 100 percent. And I agree with you we need Godly leaders. I'm not a isolationist. I'm not one that says Christians shouldn't go out. If God has called you to run for office to uphold the biblical purpose for government, then that's God's calling on your life, that's great. And if you're doing it for the purpose of proclaiming righteousness, keeping the pulpit free, keeping the pulpit unshackled for the proclamation of God, for keeping the airwaves open, great.
But I don't understand how he can sit there and say, "We need men who can discern the times and rightfully divide the Word of God." Because if you're rightfully dividing the Word of God, may I say as kindly as I know how to say, you wouldn't be sitting with people like Rick Joyner in my opinion. You wouldn't be on the stage at TheCall with prophet, Lou Engle, who his own bio says is on staff with the International House of Prayer. And as my research – and as I've read on other websites – found that the International House of Prayer is promoting contemplative prayer. That's what I've read on numerous websites and even looked at on their website at some of the books they're selling.
So if we're rightly dividing the Word, we have to come back to 2 Corinthians 6:14 and 2 John 9-11, and we cannot be partnering with these people. When we come back from the break, I want to play for you because there, again, is Tony Perkins sitting on the OakInitiative.org TV program of MorningStar – and you'll find this online, the audio is probably displayed. And there's this what clearly appears to be Rick Joyner, the host of the show and the man that's behind this whole thing.
By the way, did you know that – I called his ministry this morning – did you know that they have bought a bunch of the acreage from – a bunch of the old acreage from Heritage – the Heritage Center, Jim Baker's old thing there in South Carolina just over the border from Charlotte, North Carolina. I called this morning and said, "Is that the same Heritage USA? Is that what you –" they bought some of the acreage. And that's where this conference is being held, as I understand.
But when we come back from the break, I'm gonna play for you sound clips of Rick Joyner talking about restoring to ministry Todd Bentley. Again, why are we sitting? Why are some of our credible pro-family leaders sitting with people like this and propping them up and bringing them into the mainstream? That's my question. That's my concern. They don't need these people.
Let me tell you something. Tony Perkins does not need The New Apostolic Reformation crowd to be successful. In fact, they need, I believe, Tony's credibility. They're – they need Tony's credibility in order to make themselves mainstream. Tony doesn't need to be seen with them. They need to be seen with Tony. And Tony and others should be warmed who these people are and what they stand for, if we rightfully divide the Word of God. We'll be right back.
Welcome back to the program; glad you're with us. Brannon Howse here. I changed the program today. Got up this morning and found out about Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council speaking on the – what the website says – the 14th at 7:00 PM for this – the Oak Initiative Summit, the organization of Rick Joyner. I called down to his organization and they said, "Oh yeah, he's gonna be our banquet speaker. Why? Why are our Christian leaders giving credibility to what I believe are false teachers?
Here we have, again, Acts Chapter 20, Verse 28: "Therefore, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Verse 29: "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things –" perverse translated twisted or distorted things – speaking twisted and distorted things – "to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch –" in other words, look out, be a watchman, be a warner. "Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears."
Hmm. I wonder why tears. Because it breaks the heart of true Christians when they see their fellow Christian brothers and sisters giving credibility to false teachers. I would ask you to pray for our pro-family leaders, many of them who clearly don't seem to understand what's going on or who these people are that they would listen. Understand this is not just a program that we're doing to be sensational or to be stirring the pot. This is great concern. These are public issues.
I have to ask the question, are – do some of our pro-family leaders – is what drives them dominion theology. Because if that's what's driving some of them, then that's a theological issue that we need to address and be made aware of. Just come out and say, "Yes, we agree with dominion theology." Or even – do you even so far as to agree with The New Apostolic Reformation because, again, that's something I think that they let the people in America, the church people, people who are supporting these organizations have a right to know. Where do you come from theologically?
Under what basis do you do this? Or is this just pragmatism. Well, I don't agree with their dominion theology and I don't agree with their New Apostolic Reformation, extra prophet, prophetess, apostle stuff. No, I don't do that at all. But there's a lot of them and it's growing. We need them to go to the voting booth. Now, that's pragmatism. So what you're saying, and if you say that, is that God is dependent on the church to compromise biblical truth in order to be successful. And how successful do you think we're gonna be with that?
Now, here is Rick Joyner – and this is, again, something you can just type into YouTube, Todd Bentley restoration with Rick Joyner and you'll find a ton of videos. But here's one of them. And, again, Rick Joyner's who – according to this website and my phone call down to Joyner's organization this morning – Tony Perkins, President of the Family Research Council, will be speaking for this week at a banquet. And Tony doesn't need to be with these people. These people need Tony. Tony doesn't need them.
And here is Rick Joyner, who is restoring Todd Bentley. Wait till the media gets their hands – and some of the media already have. Some of the media already have their hands on this. And it's making Christians look really silly, number one. It's damaging the Gospel. It's upholding false teachers.
And I'll tell you something else. If the Obama administration needs to pull this one out as an October surprise, this would be a good one to show all these pro-family leaders lock arms with the like of Rick Joyner, Lou Engle, who are all associated with Todd Bentley. And look at some of these speeches. These people are talking about taking over the country, taking over CBS and making it Christian Broadcasting Services. And if that would not scare the average American thinking, "What is this? This is very cult like." And I believe – it's my opinion that the new Apostolic Reformation is very cult like.
But here is Rick Joyner who Tony Perkins is gonna speak for, according to their – this website and according to my phone call down there this morning to Rick Joyner's organization – talking about restoring Todd Bentley. In my opinion, folks, you don't get more extreme than Todd Bentley. Then I'll play for you in a minute a sound clip from Nightline on Todd Bentley. But listen to Rick Joyner on the restoration of Todd Bentley.
[Beginning of Clip]
Rick Joyner: Hello. I'm Rick Joyner and this is a special bulletin that we're doing on video that I think is very important for the body of Christ for these times and for where we're going. But you know I just put out a special bulletin on the restoration process of Todd Bentley and we're really happy that Todd is here now ready to get going and to get his life just absolutely on track with God and with men and with His body.
And we also got a huge number of responses of – it looks like 99 percent just really positive. We had a lot of great questions come in, and these are very helpful questions, very helpful. We really appreciate them. But what we're gonna try to do is do a little ten-minute video with Todd every week. We're gonna sit down and go through this process that we're going through. We're gonna try to answer the important questions and just share with you what's on our heart, what's on Todd's heart.
It seems like all over the world this is a major issue with people, and we want to help that. And we want to go straight – get it straight with what's going on. And we're gonna be absolutely as candid and out front with everything as we possibly can. So we've got Todd Bentley with us today. I'm really glad to have you in the neighborhood. And I know our people are so excited. Welcome.
Todd Bentley: We feel that.
Rick Joyner: And you being here are really welcomed.
Todd Bentley: Yeah. We feel it all – a lot of love, and it's great to be here. I'm delighted.
Rick Joyner: One question I’d like –
[End of Clip]
You know I'm shocked. My wife was sitting next to me with a cup of coffee today as I was preparing for the program. And I was propped up with some pillows and the laptop on my lap. She was sitting next to me and she said, "This is amazing. I mean it's – why would these guys do this?" I can't read their minds, but I'm stunned the things that are happening. People used to be so careful who they were associated with. People used to be very carefully. "Do these guys agree with this theology? Do they agree with Todd Bentley? Do they agree with Rick Joyner?" If so, then say so publicly so we can all know.
If you just don't know, then why don't you know? You have – I mean the Family Research Council has a lot of staff. Tell me why someone in the Family Research Council hasn’t just poked in the names of Todd Bentley and Rick Joyner to some of these people and said, "Hey guys, I don't think this is what the Lord would want us to do." Even from a pragmatic standpoint, this is not what the media seeing us doing with these people.
But from a biblical perspective, this is not who we should be propping up. This is not who we should be giving our credibility to. This is not how God will bless our organization. We can't restore righteousness to the culture or righteousness into our laws – if indeed God is gonna allow that at this point in already judging America. But we're certainly not gonna have any legislative success with God's help when we're disobeying God. Guys, we need to rethink this.
Look, I'm just one guy with a little organization, and if I can figure this out by simply spending some time on videos and websites and some of the incredible discernment ministry web sites reading about these people, you tell me they can't, with all their staff. So it begs the question, why haven't they. Or if they have, why do they go and partner with them? Do they agree with them? If so, why can they not just publicly come out and say so. Well, here is Nightline – Nightline talking about Todd Bentley. This was – this aired some time ago. This aired, according to web sites it's uploaded on, sometime around July of 2008.
But this would have been before the scandal came out. But now, he's being – as we just heard from the video clip of Rick Joyner – he's now being restored to ministry. And I see on a website where he's out speaking at events. And I looked on a website – he's already speaking with Joyner. Again, why would pro-family leaders want to even partner with this people 'cause Nightline sure knows who this guy is. CNN and other guys sure know who this guy is.
Why would we – why would they look to damage their credibility. Listen to what Nightline had to say on a special. You can just type into YouTube, "Todd Bentley exposed on Nightline," you'll find several parts. But listen to this from Nightline on Todd Bentley, who now is working with Rick Joyner. And now, we have pro-family leaders working with Rick Joyner and Cindy Jacobs and all this crowd. But why is this? Listen to this from Nightline.
[Beginning of Clip]
What some may not know is that Bentley has a very dark past.
Todd Bentley: I'm very open about my past. I mean I've written a book and it's in my autobiography. And I was charged with a sexual crime that I committed when I was 13 and I was charged at 15. And I ended up in five new prisons.
Moderator: What was the crime?
Todd Bentley: The crime was a sexual assault.
Todd Bentley: I was a child and I abused a child.
Moderator: And what exactly have you done?
Todd Bentley: I served time in prison for my crime.
Moderator: In terms of crimes? In terms of petty crimes and crimes. You stole cars.
Todd Bentley: Yeah, I broke into vehicles. I mean I'd just steal – I mean, as I got older, I'd take your pot. I'd take your drugs. I mean I got involved with people that were affiliated with gangs and bikers.
[End of Clip]
Okay, so that's Nightline. Now, I don't want to act like there aren't people who don't commit horrible sins and that there isn't grace and forgiveness. For those who repent, there is. But there's also a place where we have to understand who we should be aligning ourselves with. And when the guy's tattooed all over the place and got earrings – ball bearings coming out of his lip and everything else. I mean this is – the media is just looking at this and saying, "Wow, wow."
Okay, why would a pro-family leader and pro-family leaders want to be working with people like Rick Joyner who's working with Todd Bentley, not to mention the theological problems we've got? Maybe the problem is that there's not a lot of theology there. I mean, unfortunately again, you've got guys like Lou Engle of the International House of Prayer – according to his own bio – who is leading all these prayer events. And again, why would they be leading these prayer events. Well, as I understand, they do apostolic reformation, what they're doing is trying to bind satan because they've gotta take dominion and they could do it town-by town, city-by city, state-by-state.
And they bind satan – and we did a whole program on why that's not biblical, why that's not in the Scriptures, last week. But here comes from – again, this is nothing new with Mr. Perkins – August 22, 2008, his own website, the Perkins – it's called Perkins Perspective. This is August 22, 2008, by Tony Perkins. "I got sidetracked this week on presidential politics and did not get to share my perspective on TheCall, which took place on the Mall here in DC this past Saturday. It was an amazing day from the incredibly pleasant August day to the praise and worship, to the prayers of thousands being lifted up for America.
"I was able to join Lou Engle for about half of the 12-hour event. The media has a hard time understanding why 70,000 people came to Washington and not to call for the reining in of the runaway courts, nor to promote a political rally. Rather the call was a recognition of a spiritual deceit in our nation for which, as Christians, we must take responsibility." Now, the problem though is, does Mr. Perkins and other pro-family leaders understand what is the philosophy, what is the theology behind someone like Lou Engle. Listen to Lou Engle. This is well, him speaking. Listen to Lou Engle.
[Beginning of Clip]
People say, "Well, we'll never be involved in politics. We don't be bothered." He says, "Come on, you better be involved in it all." The reason is 'cause He's King of kings and Lord of Lords is not a nice name that we use in our worship songs. He seeks to manifest it now in this earth, in preparation for the millennial reign of Christ right now. We begin to rule with Him. So what does He do? He promotes His body to the highest realm. When those three guys, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are then promoted into the highest places. That's what he wants to do. He wants to –
[End of Clip]
Wow. You hear what he's saying here folks. He says – this is I think back in 2007 at one of these events is that what's gonna happen is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords, it's a nice name that we use in our worship songs. He seeks to manifest it now in this earth in preparation for the millennium reign of Christ right now. We begin to rule with Him. That's Lou Engle. That, in my opinion is clearly dominion theology. If we don't agree with that – and I don't. If these other pro-families don't agree with that, why are they working with him? If they do agree with it, say so. We'll be right back.
We'll open the phone lines up in just a few minutes. But I have another clip and just a few more comments. Again, I want to make very clear I appreciate a lot of what Tony Perkins and many of these pro-family, pro-life leaders have done. My problem is that we – as I said earlier – we can't be partnering with false teachers. We can't be partnering with people who I think, quite frankly, may be involved in things that are of another spirit, that are promoting another Jesus, another Gospel, a false Gospel, false teachers. And I believe that from my research.
I believe, quite frankly, as I said in the article we've put up on our website, that the greatest threat, the most imminent threat to the church in America right now is not the government. It's these false teachers. Really. The church in China goes forth. People all right becoming saved. The church in Cuba goes forth. People are still coming to Christ. God is adding to His church as people are being saved. The government – the gates of hell cannot prevail against the church. The government is not a threat to the church in the fact – in the reality of the fact that the Gospel can go forth. They cannot shackle the Gospel.
Can they make things difficult for us and should we be seeking to uphold righteousness and vote and be involved where we can and can, with biblical principles? Absolutely, but I believe that the greatest threat to the church is, really, false teachers that will lead people astray to another Jesus, another spirit. And that's about eternity. That's real serious.
Now, one of the guys that we've talked about before, one of our past Worldview Weekend speakers – and he is a past Worldview Weekend speaker for many of these reasons – is David Barton. And when I talk about theology, my concern is that some of these guys are really twisting the Scripture. Remember that passage we read in Acts – twisting the Scripture, beware of that. I believe that's what this is right here.
Listen to this. This is David Barton, which you'll find on You Tube. Just type in David Barton on Glenn Beck, Christianity and society, and you can see this clip for yourself. David Barton on Glenn Beck, Christianity and society. Listen to why – how David Barton justifies his partnership, with Glenn Beck in the Black Robe Regiment, all these fakes coming together. And you tell me if this is the Scriptures in context.
[Beginning of Clip]
So we can now say – I love the example we have from Elijah where he gets on top of the mountain with 400 false prophets, 460 prophets of Baal. He says, "You guys pray all you want to. Take all the time you want and you'll see God as long as you want to. You just make sure I get my shot." That's a free marketing. Elijah wasn’t scared of being outnumbered 850 to 1. And so that really is where I think Christians need to get it. They're scared that being with someone is gonna shake their faith. They're not grounded very well at all.
[End of Clip]
Well, it's a very interesting perspective because that isn't what 1 Kings is all about. Make sure I get my shot. I don't mind being up here with you guys, all these false prophets. That's not a problem. And, therefore, we can justify locking arms at the 828 Rally, the Black Robe Regiment with all these faiths. Elijah wasn’t afraid of that. Really. What was Elijah doing up there on the mount. Look at 1 Kings, Chapter 18. Well, he ended up by showing them the fallacy of their pagan God. And, of course, he was calling the children of Israel not to mix their worship of God with pagan spirituality. "If God be God, follow Him. If Baal be God, follow Him."
And we know that God, indeed, did a mighty miracle at work there with Elijah and he set up his sacrifice. And he says in Verse 33, "And he put the wood in order, cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood –" the sacrifice – "and said, 'Fill four water pots with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice and on the wood.' Then he said, 'Do it a second time,' and they did it a second time; and he said, 'Do it a third time,' and they did it a third time. So the water ran all around the altar; and he also filled the trench with water.
"And it came to pass, at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near and said, 'Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that You are the Lord God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again.' Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The Lord, He is God! The Lord, He is God!' "
Now, look at what he did with those false prophets in Verse 40. "And Elijah said to them, 'Seize the prophets of Baal! Do not let one of them escape!' So they seized them; and Elijah brought them down to the Brook of Kishon and executed them there.' " Okay, you want to tell me that's exactly the same thing that was going on with the Black Robe Regiment, that it's okay to partner. And look at Elijah; see what Elijah was doing. I'm sorry David, but you and those other pastors, John Hagee and others, were not doing what Elijah did.
You didn't call them out. You didn't call them out. You weren't there to call them out. You were there to lock arms with them. You were there in a – what Glenn Beck defined as a spiritual enterprise, a spirituality event. "The spirit's gonna teach," Glenn Beck said. This is the twisting of Scripture I'm talking about. In my opinion, that is what is getting the church in trouble. The real problem is, as I said earlier, is the lack of theology. We think we have to leave our theology.
And it was kinda interesting 'cause one guy is saying – Tony Perkins over there with Rick Joyner, "We need men who can rightfully discern the times and divide the word." Okay, great, so that's theology then. But then you've got somebody who works with _______, like David Barton, saying, "No, we don't bring theology into the culture." But then we're gonna run around and do apostolic reformation guys, like Lou Engel who just said, "God's gonna establish His kingdom. He's gonna do it now." So which one is it, people. Does it just depend on who's talking to us and interviewing us at the time?
I want to know your thoughts. 1-800-347-9829, 1-800-347-9829, 1-800-347-9829. Again, 1-800-347-9829 is the number. Do you agree with me today? Do you disagree with me today? Do you think we have a real problem? Do you think it's dangerous to be partnering with these guys? Do you think that Tony Perkins should go and give a speech and be at the Oak Initiative Summit, April 14th to the 16th, with someone like Rick Joyner who's restoring Todd Bentley?
Do you think that we have some Christian leaders that maybe are not being as forthright in presenting the Scriptures in context? Do you think we've got an issue where some are saying, "Hey, we want to bring theology into what we're doing so much, we want to rule the kingdom of God on earth"? But then we've got Mr. Barton over here saying, "No, theology doesn't belong in the culture." Which one is it? 1-800-347-9829. Those are the topics you can comment on. 1-800-347-9829. 1-800-347-9829. While you're getting on board, I want to play for you this comment by David about theology not being in the culture. Listen to this.
[Beginning of Clip]
– go on. We're gonna get criticism. And so I don't let that sway me at all.
What are you trying to accomplish through all of this?
You know that there's a couple of things going, is I believe firmly in an institutional separation of church and state because God did that in the Bible. He said, "Moses, you're over the civil stuff. Aaron, you're over the spiritual stuff." When King Uzziah tried to combine the two of them in 1 Chronicles 26, and God, Himself, showed up and said, "No, no, no. You cannot be king and priest, two different things. So on the one side, you have theology and that's the role of the church. On the other side, where government is, that's the culture. And that's not where theology belongs is in the culture.
What I'm doing is very much involved in the culture. I'm out there trying to get a God consciousness back in the nation, trying to back to our rights do come from God. They are God-given rights. Government exists to protect those rights. That includes life and marriage. That includes public religion. That has nothing to do with theology. That has to do with the values. And so on the value basis, I can be with a whole lot of people that I wouldn't be with on the theology basis. But because we're different arenas, I'm not trying to establish theology in the civil arena. I'm trying to work it on the culture and the values. But Glenn Beck –
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But wait a minute. Your theology is where – is the foundation of your values. You can't compartmentalize your worldview. You can't – I was talking to David Nobel about this last week, and I said, "If I'm right, you're Mr. Worldview. Can we separate theology from the culture?" And David Nobel's response was, "No, you can't separate theology, philosophy and ethics for sure." Those three you cannot separate; theology, philosophy and ethics. Well, maybe the problem is we have, some have separated theology. And so they're not looking at these things as they should.
But the Bible doesn't say that we can separate our theology and our doctrine from our Christian activism. So we're kinda getting a lot of different messages. One, we got an interview with Mr. Perkins over here, saying, "We need men to rightfully discern the times and divide the word, and then you'll be involved in politics." And then we got another guy over here saying, "No, theology doesn't belong in the culture." But yet, we're all showing up at the same event with the same people, some of the same people like Cindy Jacobs and Lou Engel and Rick Joyner that are shouting and screaming about a kingdom of God on earth.
And the whole – and the sad thing is the world is watching, the secular world is watching. The unsaved world is watching and scratching their head, saying, "This is really crazy." And I believe the Gospel is being compromised. And I believe we need to be thankful for some of the great accomplishments of some of these pro-family leaders, pro-life leaders.
But at the same time, we need to be praying for them and we need to be gently and lovingly admonishing them and saying, "This is not right. This is very unbiblical. This is dangerous for the church 'cause it's giving credibility to what our false teachers warned about in Acts, Chapter 20." Let's go to our phone lines. Let's go to – again, the number here is 1-800-347-9829. I'd love to know your thoughts on this. Brand new clips – most of them today – I played for you. 1-800-347-9829. 1-800-347-0920. Let's go to Bartholomew. Bartholomew, welcome to the program. Thanks for calling in.
I do remember. I don't get too many Bartholomews. In fact, you're the only, so I really remember you.
Welcome back to the program; glad you're with us. Brannon Howse here. It's WorldviewWeekend.com, WorldviewWeekend.com. Hope a lot of you will come over and join us in the Wisconsin area in Fond du Lac, Sunday afternoon, 1:15 to 3:45. Usama Dakdok will be with me. I'll be speaking on Religious Trojan Horse and Usama will be speaking on Islam, the truth behind Islam. The fact – the truth about Islam, the evil worldview of Islam. It is free. You just need to register online so we make sure we have enough seats for you. Sunday afternoon, 1:15 to 3:45 at Grace Reformed Church. Sunday nights filled.
You can join us, those of you listening in Northern – or Southern Minnesota and Southern Iowa can join us on Monday night in Rochester, Minnesota, Usama Dakdok and myself. So you'll find all the details at WorldviewWeekend.com. Bartholomew, I also saw today – and I have it on my desk here – Rob Bell is being featured in Time magazine. Did you see that?
So you're saying is we need someone out there refuting what Bell is saying.
That's right, Bartholomew. And I'll tell you, there are some guys writing some excellent articles. And we have one we put out last night in our e‑mail alert list, over 200,000 people refuting Bell by Jim Fletcher. And a lot of guys are writing articles. My guess is Bell doesn't want to debate them, and the media is using this guy to, really, to – I believe, try to show evangelical Christians as extremists and he's the tolerant Universalist. So it's sad what's happening. But I think that all of this is signs of the time. All of this is what the Scripture says will happen in the last days.
Let's go to Mark in Newton, Kansas. Mark, welcome to the program. Thank you for calling in Mark.
Yeah. In fact, we sent out an e‑mail alert last night on that.
Is your daughter involved in International House of Prayer?
Good for you. Good for you, Mark.
Well, I can imagine so, Mark. If you go to our website, Mark, WorldviewWeekend.com, you'll find we have a lot of videos on this. We have some video clips up there, articles on this. We have lots of free resources for you, Mark, on this, as a father. I would ask our audience to pray for Mark that God would give him the wisdom and the discernment. And as Mark studies the Scripture that the Holy Spirit would reveal things to him from the Scriptures that he can then share with his daughter, that the Holy Spirit would begin to convict his daughter. Pray for Mark, would you, and pray for his daughter. Mark, I hope you'll continue listening to the program. Glad you found it today.
Let's run over to Anthony, who's been patiently holding. Anthony, welcome to the program. Thank you for calling in, Anthony.
Thank you, Anthony. I don't know. I know he's spoken – Mr. Barton has spoken for some Cindy Jacobs conferences and appeared with these people. And I don't know. That's what I'm saying in my articles if – now, it's on this radio show – if these guys are for these guys and agree with their dominion theology – I know David last week or the week before taught the seven spheres, which were identical to the seven-mountain mandate of dominion theology. If they agree with it, then just say so.
If you even go even beyond dominion theology and are actually in agreement with the New Apostolic Reformation – because there is a difference between just being someone who's into dominion theology. There are many people in dominion theology that would never agree with the extra biblical prophets, prophets as apostle stuff. So if they're in agreement with the New Apostolic Reformation, they need to say so. If they're in agreement with the New Apostolic Reformation and their dominion theology, say so. If they're just in the new dominion theology crowd – or the dominion theology crowd, say that.
But none of us really know. None of us really know. That's the concern. And I don't have to tell you, Bartholomew, when you called in earlier – the first call I went to – I have to ask the audience to pray for us because this is getting very lonely. I talk to Christian leaders who should know about this and they don't. And then I talk to Christian leaders who agree with me, but they won't go public. They won't come on the program; they won't go public, but they tell me, "You're doing a good job. Keep it up." And they sit in the tall grass.
And I'm not very popular. I'm told by one pro-family leader, "Yeah, your name comes up. They want to know why I associate with you." In other words, this is – this could very well start to cost us in the sense of who will promote us, who will carry us, who will speak for us. And I sat at my desk last night before I posted that article, and I thought, "Wow, this is where I can start getting into pragmatism." But I decided last night, before I pushed that article, "God is bigger than all of us and God can preserve what He chooses to preserve in this organization and in what we do."
And if this costs us to be blackballed by many because they have been pressured by leaders within this movement, in the pro-family movement, not to have anything to do with me, and we can't get speakers to speak for us or we're damaged goods, then so be it. But – and we talk about being someone who's willing to be a Corrie ten Boom or a John Wycliffe or a William Tyndale. Well, this is time to put up or shut up, Hawse. And either you do this and you do it lovingly or you close it up. And so we're going forward.
But I have to tell you, it's not easy and I know that the opposition doesn't like what we're doing in the spiritual realm. And I know some pro-family leaders don't like what we're doing. But I've done it and I'm doing it, and will try to continue doing it as lovingly as I can. 'Cause not only do I care for them, and I do believe some of them are my Christian brothers – not the false teachers, but some of the pro-family leaders – but I care for the church. Pray for them. Pray for Tony Perkins and the others that they'll see who these people are and get away from them. Talk to you tomorrow.
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