Exclusive: Former High-Ranking FBI Official on Merrick Garland's Team Wanting Unabomber Released Hours After His Arrest


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Brannon Howse: Good evening and welcome to the broadcast. Glad you are with us. I'll be joined tonight by Terry Turchie. Terry is the former deputy assistant director of the counterterrorism division of the FBI. Terry is a frequent guest of this broadcast and has been in the studio with us several times. Perhaps you read over the weekend of the passing of Ted. You know, the guy that was the Unabomber. Most of you won't know him by his name, the Unabomber. Well, he passed away at 81. In fact, there are even reports out today that he died of suicide. That was what at least I think four sources were saying today. But the Unabomber. Well, he had a shack, a one-room shack out in the woods. And three men, I think it was, if I remember correctly, knocked on the door. One of them is Terry Turchie. They're all three FBI agents, I think. And Terry Turchie was there. He was the lead agent on this case for the Unabomber. They spent years trying to track him down. I think it was his manifesto he finally published that alerted one of his family members that sounded like his writing. The case was cracked. Terry gives us an exclusive tonight. I guess there have been several media outlets wanting to interview Terry, and Terry's been so kind and gracious as to make himself available to us tonight. We'll talk about that case with our friend Terry Turchie. Then Joe Hoft of joehoft.com will join us to talk about what's happening to President Donald Trump. Are a two-tiered legal system. And we'll also talk tonight with Anni Cyrus. Have you seen the video? It's a disturbing video of a man from Syria.

Brannon Howse: There in France. Running around a park. Shouting something rather awkward, which we'll tell you about tonight. While he stabbed several people, including children, some of them who are still in critical condition tonight. But for some reason, the video, which is disturbing, has been scrubbed by some social media outlets. Is that because it does not give the politically correct view of the true nature of those who practice Islam? You'll see some of that video footage tonight. And then Naomi Wolf joins us around 840 Central Time. Always interesting when we talk to her, isn't it? We'll see what the latest updates are tonight with Naomi Wolf. Joining us first is Terry Turchie. As I said in the introduction, Terry was the assistant deputy director of the counterterrorism division of the FBI. He was up on the seventh floor almost daily briefing, then FBI director, I think it was Louis Freeh at the time. Terry has been involved in many, many internationally recognized cases. Perhaps the most recognizable would be that of the Unabomber. Terry is also the author of In Their Own Words, the subtitle I'm almost sure I've Got It Right. The Democratic Party's Push Toward a Communist America, is something similar to that. You should read the book. You should order the book. In their own words as an expert on communism, someone well, he was part of the old FBI folks when the FBI was really the FBI and would go after the communists and the terrorists and the Islamists that were here to not assimilate, but to break the law and to bring down America.

Brannon Howse: He went through the history of the Weather Underground. Remember them involved in, Well, dozens and dozens and dozens of bombings. Bill Ayers. Bernardine Dohrn. Remember all of them? Well, he went through their manifesto, written, I think, in 1973. Prairie Fire. And he showed us how instead of going after. These truly domestic terrorists, the communists, the infiltrators, the revolutionaries. The FBI has largely adopted many of its cultural Marxist ideologies. Largely by being taken over by the Department of Justice which has been politicized and then took over the FBI while there was always oversight. The FBI was to be an independent organization, not a political organization. It was supposed to be apolitical. But when they started to promote not from within the FBI, but to bring in people from the DOJ to oversee the FBI. Well, that was the beginning of the end for that once-great agency. Terry's written a lot about it. You really need to read the history book of his in their own words. You can get it. On Amazon and other outlets, I'm sure in their own words. And we're very anxious about his new book, which I hope will be out very, very soon because I'm excited about the things he tells me regarding that new book. But he joins us tonight to talk about this case, the passing of the Unabomber. He died, I think, at 81 over the weekend. This is a big case. Terry was there. Well, even knocking on the door. Of that cabin. And taking him into custody. Terry, welcome to the broadcast. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Terry Turchie: Brannon, It's great to be with you. I never have to do this with you, but I have to do it tonight or I'd feel really bad. Just one small little detail there. One edit And that is, yes, I was there. I was there on the mountain with the entirety of the Unabom task force. But I was coming from the judge. The US Federal Judge William Lovell, after having spent the wee morning hours with him from about 6 a.m. until about probably 830 or 9, maybe it was even a little later. But along with the assistant US attorney up in Montana, Bernie Hubley, we were working on getting him briefed on the case and on the search warrant affidavit and answering all of his questions so that he would sign it and then I could jump in the car and take it up to Lincoln, Montana, which is a couple of hours from Helena. And we would then be implementing it. So we had a huge team of people up there and we certainly had an arrest team, as you said, of three people, two FBI agents. One was from the Helena Ra, the Helena Resident agency, and Max Knoll, who was one of the supervisors on the ATF, the Unabom task force, and had put together our arrest plan and then a US Forest Service Special agent. Not too many people are aware of and know that the Forest Service actually has a law enforcement, significant law enforcement capability. And Jerry Burns was the third person in that group that formed our arrest team and walked alongside the cabin. And okay.

Brannon Howse: So what I got wrong was you weren't there at that very moment they knocked on the door.

Terry Turchie: No, no. And I you know, that's kind of if you're in the bureau, that would be a big deal. And I wouldn't want any of the guys and ladies or anybody to think that I'm not here saying today, Hey, guess what?

Brannon Howse: Yeah. You're not changing the narrative. Okay, So I got that wrong. I thought, you know, I thought you were actually physically one of the three knocking on the door. But. But how soon after? Because you were out there getting the warrant and doing the paperwork, right?

Terry Turchie: Well, I was, you know, running the entire thing essentially with our special agent in charge. And so it was important. And we had you know, we had people all over the place. I mean, we had people literally on that morning, on the morning of April 3rd, 1996, we had people all over the country doing an extensive investigation. We had things going on in so many places. And so, you know, it's kind of like a big play. I mean, we were choreographing all of that. That's what I was responsible for. The arrest was part of that. And of course, the key part of that on that morning and our big issue that morning was, if you can imagine, here's after 16 long years, I'm sorry, 18 long years and 16 bombings from 1978 to 1996. We're now getting ready to take this notorious individual out of this cabin. And our big concern, of course, there was safety and the safety of the agents, the safety of the Forest Service special agent, and the safety of Theodore Kaczynski as well. And so there was a lot of stress on everybody. And so we had a lot of people and a lot of locations. You're up in the mountains, the Continental Divide area up there. And so we had not a full Swat team, but we had selected hand-selected representatives essentially of the FBI in San Francisco because the FBI, San Francisco was running this case.

Terry Turchie: And we had them up in the mountains. They had positioned themselves there early in the morning when it was still dark. You know, of April 2nd into April 3rd to get ready to make sure that if he was successful in getting out of that cabin before the guys got to get to the door, we could head him off. Because if he were to have gotten away, he could have probably gotten all the way to Canada. And he, in fact, had a plan. He had an escape plan at one point. And we know this because we got so much of what he had written out of the cabin. At one point, he had actually placed food caches out in various places in the forest. Wow. So that he could actually do that and get away if something were to occur. But he was pretty confident that we would never identify him and even more confident that even if we did, there's no way we would be able to insert ourselves in the town of Lincoln, Montana, and which is just really a, you know, 100, 150. People. There's no way we're going to be able to do that without him knowing about it. And so and then, of course, at the very end, as we found out when we got there, but we kind of had a feeling that this existed.

Terry Turchie: He actually had a lookout built up into one of the trees and could see the only trail that came down a logging road and came up to his cabin. And so he figured there was plenty in place, that there's just no way that we could get to him and do anything if, in fact, we ever identified who he was. But unbeknownst to him, as we like to say, Jim Freeman and who was our SEC, and myself and Max Knoll, who was the FBI supervisor in charge of that arrest plan or who had authored that arrest plan As as we like to tell people with Unabom, we did everything differently. It was not the normal bureau operation. And we were we did not use the Swat team. As I said, again, I'll say it again, especially in view of recent events we had, we had every desire to quietly take him out of that cabin as we did in the old days when 2 or 3 agents might go out to a house and arrest somebody, whoever it was, you know, or maybe four agents, you know, a couple in the back, a couple in the front, we made our arrests. We made our cases, we made our arrests. We did all of that. And we didn't always depend on Swat teams to have to be there.

Terry Turchie: And we certainly, in this case, decided in a lot of factors went into this. But we decided that look, you know, we we don't want to take any chances with this and we certainly don't want in a small rural place in Montana looking for this kind of guy. The last thing we want is to have something occur there, like what happened at Ruby Ridge or what happened at Waco. We just didn't want it. And so we felt like we would be completely in control of this operation. It would be completely done in a little bit different way. It'd be low-key in the sense that we'd have these agents. Jerry Burns was there because he's actually was the first person up there in the mountains, a non-FBI person that we entrusted with the real story of who was in that cabin. Because when we moved into that community in mass and about a month before this arrest, we were building up all the time. And unbeknownst to the people there in the Lincoln or people in Helena, we were building up to what would eventually be several dozen people and none of them were seen together or, you know, could even be known to be there until early that morning when when we started the final step towards implementing the plan and arresting Theodore Kaczynski.

Brannon Howse: You know, a couple of things there. It's so interesting, Terry. One, here you are arresting a guy that's been involved in multiple terrorist attacks, maimed I don't know how many and how many died. I mean, can you tell us how many did he maim and injure and how many died due to his terrorist attacks?

Terry Turchie: Sure. Well, three people died over the years between 78 and 96. But remember that in 1979, just a year after the Unabomber first started his bombing campaign, he placed a bomb in his third bombing attempt or third bombing, not attempt, but third bombing. He placed a bomb aboard an American Airlines flight, leaving Chicago and destined for Washington, DC. And he had built that bomb so that it would go off. It had a barometer attached to it so that it would go off at a certain I mean, an altimeter, so it would go off at a certain altitude and then bring the plane down, you know after the plane got to a certain altitude, the bomb would detonate. So the bomb was in the baggage hold. And a couple of things happened as he would write later and validate. For us, the bomb wasn't designed quite properly. That was his third bombing attempt. The kinds of chemical compounds and construction he was using he had not really perfected. And so the bomb didn't work. Right, number one. Number two, it was when it got loaded onto the plane in the container and packaging that it was in, it ended up on the bottom of all of this luggage. And so when the bomb detonated, it didn't detonate quite right. The explosive main charge did not work quite right. And then instead of exploding, it started burning. And of course, it filled up the cargo hole with smoke. Eventually, the passenger compartment started filling with smoke, and even the cockpit. So the plan. Fortunately, was able to make an emergency landing at Dulles Airport outside of Washington. And the pilots in 1998, the pilots were still living. And they were we interviewed them. We interviewed them several times, but they were prepared to testify at Kozinski, ultimately going to trial in January of 1998. They were prepared to testify that the fire that had started in the cargo hold had just about burned through the main. Uh oh, gosh, what is it on the airplane? You know, the hull, the. No, the structure, the main infrastructure that.

Brannon Howse: The future lodge.

Terry Turchie: No, no, it's. It'll come to me later anyway. I just about burned through that and a series of cords and things in the cargo hold and would have brought the plane down. They would have no longer been able to control the airplane. Maybe one of your audience will know what that is and call in or something. But that's how close the plane came to crashing. And then in 1995, in the summer of 1995, the Unabomber, of course, when he was involved in these negotiations. To. Uh, try and get his manifesto published. At that point, he was saying, Look, if we're going to this is a terror group and in the next few days, we may be putting a bomb on a plane out of LAX. And of course, people remember that if they were around then because it changed our rules then about getting on airplanes, airplanes, that's when people started being asked two questions. Did you pack your own luggage and have you kept it in your sight and under your control at all times? That was the first time we had, you know, that scrutiny of luggage and the questions asked. So he totally disrupted air travel. So he was dangerous on that plane, by the way, a couple of dozen people were on that plane, and suffered various forms of injuries. I think his total injuries were something like 36 or whatever. But, you know, we were just very fortunate during all that time that the Unabomber did not kill a lot more people. But we were convinced that had his manifesto not been published, eventually, he would have gotten himself around to putting another bomb on another airplane just like he'd threatened to do. He had no compunction about killing people.

Brannon Howse: So the point I was making a while ago was here's a terrorist who made many and you said killed three. And so this is a real terrorist. I mean, he meets the definition of a terrorist. He's a he's an environmental terrorist, I guess. And yet you didn't show up with a Swat team today. We have people that are not. Okay, terrorist. Some of them went to the Capitol. Some of them made the foolish decision to go inside. They didn't vandalize. They walked in. They walked out. Some of them, I don't think, even went in. They were on the property and what was later deemed to be a restricted area. Some of them, I guess, from the testimony I've heard, didn't know they were in a restricted area. These people have no history of terrorizing people, bombings, killing, or maiming anyone. And yet they get the full Swat team treatment from the FBI. And you're saying here we were dealing with a real terrorist who had maimed people, killed people, and we went. And you sent in you guys sent in three people to apprehend him at his door without a Swat team.

Terry Turchie: That's exactly what I said. And I'll add something else to this discussion. A group of attorneys and we can get into it a little bit later if we have time or maybe another time. But a group of attorneys that the DOJ were kind of the committee, that if you were a working FBI agent or certainly in my role in the case, because I primarily dealt with Janet Reno and Louis Freeh, as you mentioned, if if you were trying to get something done at DOJ in the form of one of these recommendations, like getting the manifesto published, you went through or you were supposed to go through these lawyers. And certainly, when the affidavit was being written, we had a whole, you know, tier of people. We had to send this through. And at the end, at the end in 1996, when we were trying to get our search warrant affidavit and there was a real-time crunch and pressure on us when we were trying to get our search warrant affidavit through and get it approved and get a recommendation from this group of lawyers at DOJ to Janet Reno to go ahead and approve it. We had nothing but trouble. We were still struggling to get them to approve this right up to April 3rd or right up to April 2nd, late at night. And the reason answers to your question, of why this group of attorneys was essentially headed by Merrick Garland, is none other than they would not approve it because the DOJ had never done a search warrant affidavit that was based around.

Terry Turchie: And yet there was a lot of corroborating information in this one that was based around what we called a word comparison between the manifesto and another document, which was a 35-page essay that Theodore Kaczynski himself had written in 1971. And it was the publication of the manifesto, as we had recommended as the Unabom task force that recommended to Janet Reno and to Louis Freeh. It was the publication ultimately by the Times and the Post that kind of worked together. And it was published in The Post in an edition of The Post on September 19th of 1995. Because we thought someone we thought that the manifesto was so thorough and so much the reflection of someone's thinking and their thinking about a lot of issues. We felt that it was probably a certainty that someone out there had to have already heard about this individual as loner as he might be. Talk about these very points. And between September 19th and February 15th of 1996, we got 55,000 calls from the public about this. We focused on one. And that was the call from David Kaczynski's attorney.

Brannon Howse: Wow. So his own brother turns him in, reads it, and recognizes these points, as your team knew would probably happen. So you guys were encouraging the publishing of this manifesto and that was his downfall. Now, you mentioned Merrick Garland. Remind our audience exactly what this is. Just to remind our audience, this is the now attorney general of the United States at that time. At that time, what was his job?

Terry Turchie: Exactly. He was one of the highly placed deputy attorney generals. And he was essentially the one coordinating all of those attorneys. And the recommendations they would make, they would not recommend that our search warrant be approved.

Brannon Howse: So I want to interrupt you right there. I want to stop you right there. So what you're saying, Terry, is. The new acting attorney general. Mr. Garland. Showed more. Uh, restraint, patience, deference. I don't know what word you want to use. To a man that you guys believed was indeed the one responsible for terrorist bombings and killing people and maiming people. He showed more deference and restraint in apprehending him than he has people that he has deemed as terrorists who have not committed terrorist attacks, but just simply showed up for a political rally. Some of them, I understand, even go inside the building. Is that what I am to understand tonight, Terry?

Terry Turchie: That's exactly what I'm saying. And that's why anybody that knows all of this is looking at what's going on today and saying these people are just natural-born liars. They don't what they're saying to the American public today is not even characteristically for them. I mean, this person went bent over backward. And quite frankly, in my opinion, I'll label this part, my opinion never did trust our judgment on unable, the person who trusted our judgment. And I'll simply say this I don't like using me. And that's just it bothers me. But my biggest role, in this case, was dealing directly with Janet Reno. And she believed in us. She trusted us. And she and I had several one on ones where it was simply just the two of us. She knew this case far better than those lawyers. And late on April 2nd, after she and the FBI director met, they basically they are the ones who approved this search warrant. They're the ones who made this happen. And they're the ones who certainly got us through the meeting with The Washington Post and New York Times. Here is one very clear example. We set in a big room in the I believe the director's conference room on the seventh floor of the Hoover building, as you mentioned. And it was a historic meeting.

Terry Turchie: It was a historic meeting. The owners, the owners, and editors of The New York Times and Washington Post are on one side of the table, and the FBI and the DOJ are around the rest of the table. And at some point during that meeting, I gave most of the briefing there. And the director, you know, set it up and answered questions when it was appropriate. But they let us have a real clear path to explaining why we thought this was workable. And it was a very frank and honest discussion. And at one point, I don't remember exactly who asked, but said, look, what if you do? We understand what you're saying. We understand. You're not saying that it'll stop him from bombing because we didn't we didn't say that at all and we were not going to claim that. But we felt like we would be able to really have a real path to identifying him. And so they said, look, here's our question. If we publish this and he does commit another bombing, I mean, and then they kind of it kind of trailed off. Janet Reno jumped in there immediately. If you publish this based on our recommendation to publish and he commits more bombings or the terrorist group commits more bombings. We, I, the attorney general, take full responsibility and the FBI director, Louis Freeh, at the same time.

Terry Turchie: I mean, he just joined her. I mean, he had you know, it was very clear that Louis Freeh and Janet Reno completely believed in this strategy from beginning to end. They were more familiar with it than all these highly paid lawyers that are supposed to help you get through these things. And I'm going to add one more piece to this. And I've never said this publicly. Brannon, I've said that other part just once, publicly a few months ago. But I'm going to say this part that was on, you know, just hours before, not that meeting, but that is kind of the backdrop to what happened hours before the arrest where we were having trouble finally getting over the finish line and having our affidavit so that we could, you know, pull the trigger the next morning on this whole thing. And that was late, late on April 2nd, early in the morning on April 3rd. But let me tell you what happened the next night. The next night, April 3rd, we got there. Nothing happens as you planned. Got him out. It was. It was a flawless textbook arrest. The guys just did great. Tom McDaniel, Max Noll, and Jerry Burns got him out of there. We secured the cabin, secured the area. We're getting towards the end of the day, we have Theodore taken off to another cabin to just kind of sit still and bide time until we figure out what we have and what to do.

Terry Turchie: In the meantime, some of our bomb experts were looking into the cabin. It was a literal bomb factory. They remember they have experience from all over the world on bombs and what different things mean. And so they essentially made observations which were very, very important. But we didn't know how important until several hours later, as Jim Freeman and I decided we were going to take it. Okay, we're going to we're done here. We have to close shop. We can't be searching in a bomber serial bomber's cabin in the dark. So everybody, you know, locks everything down. We're going to take off. We'll be bright and early tomorrow morning at first light in the mountains. And Theodore Kaczynski. We're going to take over the hill and turn him over to the marshals. Right. So we've got him in. We've got him in the car. We start getting calls back from the Department of Justice. They were absolutely having a coronary. They were telling us from back there from 2000 miles away, you had a search warrant. You don't have any authority to arrest him, you have to turn him loose until we figure out what we're going to do next. Whoa. I'm serious.

Brannon Howse: Is that the part you're saying for the first time?

Terry Turchie: Yes. Yes. That was coming out of the same group of lawyers and I know was Merrick Garland.

Brannon Howse: Was Merrick Garland involved in that?

Terry Turchie: Look at Merrick Garland's resume. He claims to be he was calling the shots in Unabom.

Brannon Howse: So you're telling me tonight the attorney general of the United States back then, Merrick Garland, called for the release of the Unabomber.

Terry Turchie: All I know is that whoever was back there with him at the time, they were telling us, you need to let him go. You can't arrest this guy.

Brannon Howse: And he was a part of that. And he was a part of that group that was meeting and directing this.

Terry Turchie: It was in charge of it. And so late at night on April 3rd, now our second late night up, I finally I'm in a meeting here with Bernie Hubley. I mentioned the assistant US attorney. And I. I get called out of it. And on the phone is the FBI legal counsel, Howard Shapiro. And Howard said, look, Jerry, they're saying here that, you know, they're all in a dither, that you guys have. Kaczynski And we don't I mean, we don't have a search warrant. And I mean, we're having a hot and heavy discussion here, you know, and they're trying to figure out, well, how are we going to justify that? They've held him this long and they have him. And we finally I finally said, look, Howard, here's our plan here. Our explosive experts looked inside that cabin. They know what they can describe that this guy literally had a bomb factory. And our plan here, we're sitting here with Bernie Hubley. Bernie's idea is to get all this documented and to have a superseding or not a superseding, but a hearing and have this guy held over. Charge him with possession of explosives, and paraphernalia. And that's exactly what we did. And they held on to him based on that the next day because we could hold him overnight anyway.

Terry Turchie: It wasn't that big of a problem with that. And the next day, they charged him. A grand jury in Montana charged him based on the observations of a couple of FBI agents who were explosive experts. And that's the bridge that got us to where we would eventually go and we would indict him in Sacramento and in Newark, New Jersey, for the other bombings where people had been murdered. And that is the nonsense that we were putting up with. From these lawyers at the DOJ. And yes, they were a heck of a lot more concerned about let's just say this heck from my vantage point, a lot more concerned about handcuffs on Theodore Kaczynski at that hour than they were. The fact that all of those FBI personnel were absolutely exhausted. Half of them had flown from San Francisco to Montana the night before. They'd been up all night getting ready. They worked all day. They'd been up until midnight on the second night. And yet we hadn't even started the search, so they could have cared less about us and Pearce, doesn't it? But you know, these are the people that front themselves as so carefully considering all the facts and all the different issues that are involved in something like this.

Brannon Howse: So what you're telling me, though, is that Merrick Garland, then now the attorney general of the United States is where live tonight, June 12th, 2023, Merrick Garland and the team he was leading at the DOJ then were more concerned about the civil rights of a man that you guys believe you had overwhelming evidence. Was the Unabomber. Yes. Then they are today of the civil liberties of moms who are going to school board meetings to make their constitutionally protected and guaranteed right of freedom of speech over their children related to mask mandates, Covid shots, cultural Marxism, and LGBTQ ideology. They don't care about the civil liberties of moms at school board meetings, but they were concerned about the civil liberties of the Unabomber. He doesn't care, apparently, about the civil liberties of pro-lifers, but he did about the Unabomber.

Terry Turchie: I'm telling you that with an exclamation mark and underlined.

Brannon Howse: I'll make sure our audience understands what he just said. You said you would underline that and put an exclamation point on that.

Terry Turchie: Yeah. That was there. I was there, Brannon. And again, remind your audience, of Merrick Garland, one of his claims to fame of being an attorney general of the United States. I coordinated Unabom. Quite frankly, I never saw the guy, never received a phone call from him, never got an email from him, never got anything from the guy. And yet I was with Janet Reno all the time. Janet Reno was the one at DOJ who helped us do the right thing and get through this. None of these other people were even close and a couple of them that I'd love to name, but I won't. Were absolute. And they and they worked on his big team. They were useless. They were useless. All they cared about was how can we now make this unsolvable case that none of us wanted to go near. How can we now make this something that we can now get more promotions and more recognition from? That was all they seem to care about other than. And I want to differentiate the authors that were out in the field and I'm going to name them Bob Cleary from New Jersey, Steve Fusaro, and Steve Lapham from San Francisco and Sacramento respectively, and Bernie Hubley from Montana, and a fellow named Doug Wilson, who was from DOJ and became part of the Unabom prosecution team. Those guys. Those guys. Any one of those guys, any one of them could be an FBI director. And today's problems are solved. They're all people of. Absolutely. Impeccable character, and I don't think we all have the same political viewpoints. Who cares? But we work together for thousands of hours in the next two years. And those guys, those guys were different. But see, they were working. Roll up your sleeves, hard-hitting, gang-busting lawyers who were not that far removed from being FBI agents.

Brannon Howse: And by the way, if Donald Trump were to win another term. You may not like it. I'm going to say this, but if he wins another term, I'm going on a massive full-court press, a national campaign for Terry Turchie to be the next FBI director.

Terry Turchie: Yeah, well, we'll talk about that privately. So you don't do that. But the point is.

Brannon Howse: But that's as you know, Terry, that's how impressed I have been with you. Your work, your character, your consistency, your understanding of history, and your understanding of the rule of law. And if you don't want the job, then you should at least be on the little kitchen cabinet, as it's called by one president. Be on the kitchen cabinet to help him pick the next director at the very minimum. Terry.

Terry Turchie: Well, Brannon, I appreciate all of that. And we'll just leave it at that. And but here, look, this is what's beautiful about not being part of that and never having been. I mentioned Max Mill. I have to put this in here because it fits. Max can be very volatile. Not now, but he was he could then and it was a joke. But you know, we realized we had very different personalities. But these people would drive him nuts. Max was the consummate FBI agent. I mean, he handled everything from shootouts on airplanes to I mean, you know, we had this great group of people. And any case like this, anybody who tells you that they did anything or whatever, we were a true team. And that's why this worked, whereas before it didn't. But my story with Max, he'd get really upset with, you know, the suit and tie set and, you know, that that wasn't going to be there in the swamps when you needed them, you know, too, to do the heavy lifting. And so one day he comes running into my office and he is hot.

Terry Turchie: And when Max got hot, I mean, his face was red. He was mad. He had I was on the phone with someone and he's just going off. He said You've got to be quiet. I'm on the phone. I'll just. Anyway, he just couldn't help himself. So I get off the phone. What's going on? And he's got this piece of paper. It's from the FBI headquarters. And they had summoned us back to a meeting and he said, Terry, I'm not going. I said, Well, you got to go, Max. You're going. If I have to go, you're going. So he's sitting down and now we're going through this thing and finding out why they want to have a meeting. But they've got this big list which includes all these DOJ officials and all these FBI headquarters officials. And, you know, in the front of every name is Mr. Mister this or maybe Mrs. But Mr. Mister, Mister. And Max is waving this piece of paper around and he yells, I've never been to a meeting of the missus in my life.

Terry Turchie: And in all these years I will never forget the meeting with the mister and so it was I won't even go into what happened in that meeting, but it was a fascinating time. But this is the way these cases work. And I want to get to one other point here. Do you think today's FBI is different? You bet it is. In those days, yes, we'd get mad or we'd say, no, we're not doing it that way and they're not going to push us. And we knew that Louis Freeh or the deputy director or the assistant director or the deputy assistant director or whatever, they would call back us up. Wow. But not today. And I know again, I know that firsthand because I got in these little fracases with these people because they're about power. And, when it comes to our job and theirs, they really should stay out of ours. And that's why if, you know, I know maybe a lot of people think, well, you know, this is just some old guy whining now, but by golly, I'll tell you something, Brannon, whatever ends up happening and a lot has to happen in the next couple of years. I mean, the FBI has got to get completely turned around and cleaned out. And I and I'll add this and severely reduce in size. I'll add that to that. But let me tell you what. Uh, we've got to get the FBI. No matter what they end up doing, it will all be in vain. If the FBI is still subordinate and reporting to the Department of Justice. Because while it appears that for decades, we were able to hand down this idea of free will and independence and steer it in the right direction, it appears that's gone. And once that's gone, then you're not. You can do a thousand things to fix it, but it's not going to be fixed.

Brannon Howse: Oh, Terry, Terry, fascinating story. Thank you for sharing it with us. Again, giving us this exclusive interview. What did you think? What did you think when you heard that Ted, Theodore Kaczynski had died, and now the reports he may have committed suicide? That's according to one outlet today, quoting four sources. What was the first thing that popped into your mind when you heard that this weekend?

Terry Turchie: Well, you know, the first thing that popped into my mind was the relationships with some of the victims that all of us had made. I have given very little thought to Theodore Kaczynski over the years. And I just kind of thought about the closure. And sure enough, it was just a few hours later I got this just wonderful. I mean, a beautiful email from one of them who I became very close. And, you know, the Unabom task force also was very unique. We had several agent teams and part of the way we restructured or we structured it was that not only are we out here and out and about trying to figure out the identity of the Unabomber and to put together a case that will survive all the hearings and trials and everything. But we need to make sure we have these great relationships with the victims so and their families so. Uh, all of these different teams had differing people. They were kind of responsible too, to try and make sure they communicated things to them or up to and including picking them up at the airport when we were set up for the trials in Sacramento. But I became close with several of them and certainly one in particular who, I mean, she was. He was just this courageous. The wonderful person they all were. But I just felt, you know, a lot closer to her because she had a lot of a lot on her mind. And she was just this most wonderful person that was always writing the Unabom task force during our trial days that went on for almost a year in Sacramento.

Terry Turchie: She would probably send us a card every week and a nice uplifting note. And I guess, you know, all of these victims, they helped keep our morale up because as we got to know them, it was very obvious. You would think that people would be really upset and frustrated with you after so many years of waiting for justice. And it wasn't that way at all. Wow. Yes. Were they upset or had they been or had they had rough moments? They had. But they became heroes for us and they became the real personification of courage. And I think of them and you can't not think of them. And to me, they showed something even beyond what that case illustrated. And that was that Americans are truly amazing people. And I hope that that certainly is still out there, even though many people are very quiet these days. But I think they're bursting with wanting to say we've had enough. Yes, we've simply had enough. And, you know, you brought up in your earlier dialogue you brought up. What is the white supremacy idea? And, you know, just very quickly, I worked as much or more, I'll say more domestic terrorism during the 90s than any other FBI agent you could find out there today. The search for Eric Rudolph in the mountains of North Carolina with multiple Swat teams there and of course, Theodore Kaczynski and other cases that involved involve domestic terrorism.

Terry Turchie: And let me tell you, the idea that a political leader, let alone the president of the United States and the attorney general and the director of the FBI would be out there beating the path and talking about white supremacy and white privilege and all of this nonsense as if this is the major threat facing America. Is either a blatant lie and they intentionally lie, but they know it or they are the most incompetent people ever to light the corridors of power in DC. Wow. That would be a tough contest, probably. But I worked this stuff and they are simply lying. And we've had domestic terrorism before. They built the Capitol insurrection into a lot of noise. But let me tell you something. They're now promoting people based on their resumes and how they were connected to that. And these people are dangerous because they are dividing the country by that mere dialogue. Do you remember after 9/11 how quickly the political power shakers wanted to tell Americans, wanted to lecture to Americans? You know, hey, you need to be very, very, very, very careful. Don't, you know, confuse the idea that we were attacked by terrorists from Middle Eastern countries with all this hate against Middle Easterners? Well, first of all, I agree with that. You don't want to do that.

Brannon Howse: But what happened to the principal? What happened to it? It was never extended across the board. Now, everyone that believes in the Constitution, borders parental authority does find. Communism is an ideology, not consistent with our constitutional republic. Those who are pro-life, those who hold to Christian ideas, traditional marriage, and traditional morality, all of them are painted with the same brush and they're encouraged to be painted with the same brush.

Terry Turchie: Remember, remember something? Because, you know, none of this stuff makes any sense. But when you sit down and you start going through it thread by thread, just remember. And of course, even in all the time we have together, we never seem to be able to get to all of this. But just think about one of the latest things, you know, the whole idea that you know, we all bought into or well, I won't say we all bought into it, but we all at least, you know, we didn't go bonkers when. Okay, gay rights, whatever. So now, of course, it was never about gay rights. It was never about that. It was about unleashing on society. What we're hearing today. Yes. Which is. Wait a minute. There's not a man. There's not a woman. There are many, many, many genders. And there's much more than a man and a woman. Now, I want your audience. I just want to throw this out so that people can think about it on that one count because this is classic communism, classic subversion. This is classic of the way our kind of country falls from the inside out by people who are part of it, not people from the outside.

Terry Turchie: This is what they're doing. They're going to fight like holy hell to try to try to bring that across the finish line. Because once they succeed or if they were able to succeed in getting us to just finally give it up, throw it up, throw up our hands and quit fighting it, the idea of male and female. Oh, no, there's all the genders and there's all this, whatever the latest is, what are they doing? Once everybody or once people even nod off from kids in school at an early age to grown adults, to people like me in my last phase of life, once we all nod off on that and just kind of give up and throw up our hands, they have come in the back door and they have convinced everybody, okay, there we did it. The Bible starts differently, right? There is God created a man and a woman, right?

Brannon Howse: That's right.

Terry Turchie: Once they come through the back door and we all give up on the fight of all the varieties of whatever you can be or not be. And it's much more than a man and a woman. They have just now said there we did it. We have just now ended Christianity as we know it.

Brannon Howse: And you and I both know that that's the whole goal of the cultural Marxist to set up a coalition of victims, the poor, the immigrants, the sexual minorities, whatever you want, the feminist, whatever you want to call them, and then say the source of all suffering and oppression comes from who? The Christians by the free market, The Christians, and the capitalists. And then you. Then you agitate those Christians hoping to get a response from them. And if you can't, then you pose as them with agitators and provocateurs posing as them to get them to do things. So you can now justify stripping them of their civil liberties and civil rights. And now you've just turned your enemy into the desired number-one public enemy number one, Correct?

Terry Turchie: Exactly. And to make sure you can pull that off and have the right number of violent mentalities, you empty the prisons and you import in from some of these countries that more and more just seem to hate America. You let these people come in illegally and these numbers will turn up when things are not going your way politically and you want to go and take to the streets of the city and burn things down and galvanize against the terrible enemy of white supremacy. You are exactly right. And that and by the way, what you again, for your audience, what where that all comes from, that you and I just had that back and forth. It comes not from us. It comes right out of the Prairie Fire of 1974.

Brannon Howse: That's right. I said 73 earlier. I didn't think I had the date right. 1974 Prairie Fire, their manifesto. And Terry Turchie folks wrote a whole book. All of you should read in your own words all about this ideology and how it's permeating our government and political parties today. Terry, what a historic interview. Thank you for your service. Thank you for being here tonight. Thank you for your time. And I know our audience appreciates it and we're very eager for the new book. When's it Coming out?

Terry Turchie: Brannon, I don't have an answer for that, but we'll see what happens. It would be before the election, certainly.

Brannon Howse: Okay, good. We're looking forward to it. Thank you, Terry, for being with us.

Terry Turchie: Thank you. Thanks for having me. And you take care and hang in there.

Brannon Howse: You do as well. Do you have a website or anything you want to promote or do you just want to push people to go get the book?

Terry Turchie: No. If people want to get it in their own words, that's fine. I'm as my publisher said, I'm just terrible at selling myself. Okay.

Brannon Howse: But you have no website or Twitter feed or anything you want to promote.

Terry Turchie: I do have an I can be reached on Twitter. It's very easy. Yeah.

Brannon Howse: @TTurchie on Twitter. Excellent. Thank you, Terry.

Terry Turchie: Hey, thank you, Brannon. You take care.

Brannon Howse: You too, Terry. Turchie checking in, folks. What a historic interview we just had. Wow.

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