Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 01/24/07 07:45:49 AM |
Age 52, IN |
Either out of fear or ignorance most Christian leader won't touch this topic. Even David Barton missed one of the worst taxes -- property taxes -- which makes the state ultimate landlord of every "privately-owned" home, farm, business, etc. How many times have you heard of a family forced to sell their home after the mortgage was paid because they couldn't afford escalating property taxes during their retirement years.
I'm convinced the only just tax is one that can be easily avoided, and the tax that fits this criterion best is a consumption tax collected at the retail level. Virtually any other type of tax requires compulsory behavior (such as filing tax forms), makes the government a lien holder of private property, or otherwise introduces government oppression at some level.
Ideally, all levels of government should collect their share of a common-source tax. The problem with multiple tax sources is that such a system breeds lobbying seeking to reduce or eliminate a particular tax on one favored group of people at the expense of another group who must bear a heavier tax load. Such an arrangement breeds envy and strife, whereas a common-source tax causes every tax payer to have the same goal: to keep the tax rate applicable to everyone as low as possible.
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Re: Re: Re: The Bible and Taxes and the Fairtax
| Posted On: 09/06/06 09:37:17 PM |
Age 69, NC |
Jesus had a plenty to say about taxes and tax collectors. He pointed to tax collectors as sinners, yet he numbered them among his disciples. The tax collector Levi (Matthew) was one of the twelve apostles, and the story of chief tax collector Zaccheaus evinces Jesus' love of reformed sinners. The render-unto-Caesar incident in Matthew (Ch. 22), Mark (Ch. 12) and Luke (20) has generally been interpreted by Christian exegetes to mean. "pay your taxes." However, it is worthy of note that all of those interpretations came about AFTER the Christian church became enthralled to the Roman state and began to share in the state's tax revenues. A comprehensive analysis of Jesus' "view" of taxes and tax collectors is available free of charge from the website, http://www.jesus-on-taxes.com. Its conclusions are supported by Scripture and numerous other authorities. The analysis is an essay entitled JESUS OF NAZARETH, ILLEGAL-TAX PROTESTER, which has been posted on the /world wide web for approximately two years. The essay is a work in progress and your own comments or criticism are invited and if valid wiil be--with your consent--incorporated in the text or it will be changed to reflect your input. Sincerely, Ned Netterville, ned@jesus-on-taxes.com
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The sting of money
| Posted On: 08/21/06 04:22:59 PM |
Age 42, MN |
I would like to add my two cents. I say two cents, because that is about all I have right now. My wife and I have four children, I have two company's right now and am trying quite hard to manage paying for this family that God owns. I see from the posts that the topic of money and taxes have "stung" quite a few people.
First, if it wasn't for the state government helping our family out, we would most likely be on the street right now with no medical or financial help whatsoever. I know many of you are saying, "that's your own problem!". That's okay and expected, after all, I am sure that God will say the same thing to you someday..."to whomever gives mercy, mercy will be given".
Second of all, I know of very few people who enjoy getting any kind of help from anyone. Most Christian churches turn a blind eye to anyone who is suffering out there unless they are not within their visual range. You go to church to fit in, feel like you belong, make sure you can "look good" to your neighbor. Hypocrits! I pray suffering doesn't find you ... but it often does.
Third, the application of the verse, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" needs to apply here. The government is more merciful than all of the churches put together. They help with our dollars because the church who makes of much of the voting population has given them that right. Just like the Jews did when they asked for the King of Kings to give them a king of fools. God warned them, "the king will force you to do such and such and may you pay for this and that". Well, we the church have allowed the government to be our social conscience and taken the responsibility of taking care of the poor and put it into the hands of the government and then we dare to whine about it.
I could go on, but I'm afraid I might be ranting and raving myself ... all to no avail. :-)
Love you all.
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 08/17/06 03:12:43 PM |
Age 34, TN |
1 Timothy 6:10. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
I think misusing scripture would fall under all kinds of evil described this text.
If you want to pay less taxes, a less complicated tax system, a "fair" tax system, etc., please don't misuse God's word to do so.
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Re: Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 08/01/06 09:03:20 AM |
Age 28, NC |
What do you say to Abram giving a tenth to Melchizedek (Gen 14:20) before there was a nation of Israel or a codified law?
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/29/06 02:11:55 PM |
Age 42, WI |
Mr. Barton is to be commended for having the courage to speak up on a topic that touches each person's life here in the United States of America. I have to say that I am not surprised at the negative feedback to this article - but it saddens me nonetheless. It is a result of a seeming majority of our population looking to the 'government' to provide for everyone, etc. and as a result, the 'government' has to get the $$$ somewhere! What amazes me is how many people think the 'government' is some nebulus entity that has an unending supply of funds! When people begin to take responsibility for themselves, and their families and stop looking to 'government' to solve all their ills we will again be able to restore what our founding fathers gave us in our republic. The socialistic ideals that most people seem to ascribe to are what is undoing us - from the INSIDE OUT! Thank God for brave brothers like Mr. Barton who take the time to love the 'church' enough to tell her the truth. I pray it causes our brothers and sisters to shed their democratic mindset and begin to apply biblical truths in every area of their lives. Keep fighting the good fight of faith Brother Barton! Blessings!
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Re: Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/29/06 01:47:00 AM |
Age 62, TX |
I read that most of the posts using "render unto Caesar what is Caesars" are implying the same thing that Jesus did when He used the phrase contrasting what is Gods with what was Caesars. Caesar retains not a single spec of his earthly kingdom that was never his in the first place but Gods. (Worldview principle #2: The Creator is Sovereign over all of creation.) Debating the complexities of the taxation is too difficult for most of us. I think we must start with keeping three pairs of ideas in balance as taxes are collected from the vast differences among the population: justice and fairness, responsibility and charity, ability and mercy. I am happy that making the American tax code fit these principles is not my job while on earth and that my allotted time here to see the injustice and greed is short. gboydsmith@sbcglobal.net
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/28/06 12:55:51 PM |
Age 26, PA |
While I have not studied the exact scriptures given enough to stand behind Mr. Barton, I do have great respect for him and what he has done and is doing for our country and the education thereof.
One thing I would like to mention is the fact that most people that are opposed to what Mr. Barton has said bring up the verse that says to "render unto Caesar what is Caesars." I will not question God's word, but I will question what "is Caesars." Our founding fathers set up our nation in such a manner that would not allow for most taxes we see today, especially income tax. Over the last 100 years the politicians have twisted the constitution and our history to allow these taxes. Basically, the only thing that was supposed to be taxed was foreign profit. Today we have the exact opposite; everything is taxed except what is made in other countries. So, according to our, the citizens of the United States of America, constitution, which our elected officials swear to uphold for us, the taxes this government as placed on us are not their's to place.
And as a side though (not a lot of thought put into it yet), if a principle is good enough for our spiritual life, isn't it more than good enough for our material life?
Thanks for the informative article Mr. Barton. God Bless.
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Re: Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/28/06 10:15:54 AM |
Age 65, AR |
Feed back on - Posted On: 07/27/06 11:38:31 PM Age 62, TX
Amen!
We can find a scripture to back any theory we may have...
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/28/06 02:07:57 AM |
Age 30, IN |
I really wish my fellow Christians would refrain from cherry-picking "proof-texts" from Scripture, out of context, to justify their preferred views, instead of seeking the whole counsel of Scripture. Barton's article nicely demonstrates the trouble with bending Scripture to match one's prior political views. For instance, under "Income Taxes," Barton implies that Scripture supports both a flat AMOUNT ("half a shekel") and a flat RATE (the tithe) as the proper tax; obviously, it cannot be both, and so Barton's interpretation makes Scripture contradictory. His article features: no mention of the commands to give all we have to the poor; misapplication of parables that deal with spiritual elements, not financial elements; no justification for transferring (a very select few) principles applicable in ancient Israel to our current State; and on and on. Such a hermeneutic as Barton employs is as irresponsible as claiming that Scripture supports a 100% tax of Christians, so that their possessions may be given to the poor.
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/28/06 12:13:22 AM |
Age 49, VA |
I am in favor of revising the tax code to a simplier form; but like many people, the author uses Scripture to support positions that either just don't apply or are not the "whole" of Scripture. Scripture has many verses about money (far more than most people realize) and needs to be looked at as a whole and not taken apart to support human opinion.
The "taxation" mention in Old Testament Scripture refers to a theocrasy, something America was never intended to be -- and therefore has no bearing. Didn't the Year of Jubilee (once every 7 years) Scriptures talk about all debts are to be forgiven.
Many verses in the New Testament talk about the love of money and all the associated problems. The camel through the eye of the needle, Lazarus and the rich man, the prodigal son, and much will be asked from those whom much was given (its too late at night for me to remember all the verses) are all examples that could be used to counter many of the author's contentions. To say that politicians are not using Scripture to govern the tax code seems to fly in the face of Christ saying to give unto Caeser what his Caeser's and give to God what is God's (as someone else mentioned).
What the government does with the taxes it collects is great fodder for discussion of politicians' use of Scripture to guide them in governing America!
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/27/06 11:38:31 PM |
Age 62, TX |
The purpose of my criticism is not to support the American Tax Codes but to declare a blatant abuse of scripture. The interpretation of scriptures used in this article violates commonly held principals of hermeneutics and applies the interpretation as if greed was a divine virtue. Mr. David Barton is reading into texts his modern ideologies. When we do what Mr. Barton has done we may make scripture say whatever we want it to say - just as the pro-slavers did in America. This is a serious offense against truth and all that is implied in what scripture says about truth and its divine source. I admonish Brother Barton to consult experts in the field of hermeneutics, New Testament, and Old Testament to understand the full measure of these errors, and then to write a follow up article.
One point briefly, over the screams of most pastors of the land, the tithe is of the Law. It is a level ten-percent to all because in theory every tribe received a division of the promise land of equal value based upon the number of tribesmen. The idea was that each Israelite family had a piece of property equal in value to every other family. In the year of Jubilee (every 50th year), land sold to others was returned as in the original bequeathal. In theory every Israelite had the same material wealth; so a level tithe was just under the Law.
Under the New Covenant there is not a little tithe owed to our Lord, but from our hearts full of love we surrender ALL to Him and render into Caesar what is Caesars. It grieves me for the impoverished faithful to struggle in contributing their 10% as if they were under the Law, and for the wealthy faithful to contribute their 10% from their abundance as they become elders in the body of Christ. gboydsmith@sbcglobal.net
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/27/06 08:44:27 PM |
Age 52, IL |
Not only is there moral problems with the Income Tax system. The 1040 Income Tax Form is a "bootleg" form. According to the Paperwork Reduction Act, it must display a "valid" controll number. If it does not, you are not required to comply. It has displayed the same number (1547-0074) for over 20 years. The Paperwork Reduction Act only allows for a controll number to be used a maximum of 3 years, and only if there are no changes to the form. This is only 1 of many voilations.
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/27/06 07:16:17 PM |
Age 49, MI |
Using holy scripture to not only justify avarice and greed, but as an argument against the wealthy having to pay a greater share of taxes? Apparently Mr. Barton forgot about the following passages:
"And they answered him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thour the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly : Is it lawful for us to give tribute to Caesar, or no?
"But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
"Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.
"And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. (Luke, 20:21-25).
And --
"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute it to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
"And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
"And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter the kingdom of God!
"For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." (Luke, 18:22-25)
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Re: Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/27/06 04:30:15 PM |
Age 64, IA |
DAVE BARTON, AS USUAL, HAS WRITTEN A WONDERFUL, INFORMATIVE ARTICLE.
IT IS TOO BAD THAT OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES DON'T FOLLOW BIBILICAL PRINCIPES.
I GUESS THAT WOULD BE WAY TOO MUCH TO ASK SINCE THEY DON'T EVEN FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION WHICH THEY SWEAR UNDER OATH TO UPHOLD.
IT IS TIME FOR A THIRD PARTY. I BELIEVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL PARTY IS THE WAY TO GO.
I HAVE BEEN A REPUBLICAN FOR MANY YEARS BUT I CAN'T REALLY TELL MUCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND LIBERAL REPUBLICANS.
I WILL HAVE TO CREDIT IOWA CONGRESSMEN STEVE KING FOR AT LEAST TRYING HIS BEST. I KNOW IT IS VERY HARD FOR HIM TO FIGHT THE MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS.
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/27/06 04:22:37 PM |
Age 52, OK |
Truly, taxes are not Biblical or Constitutional! I am all for the fair taz system, but will it ever have a chance on either side of the aisle?
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/27/06 03:51:16 PM |
Age 68, TN |
If your total tax, federal, state, and local is over 10% (your tithe) then government is your god. You pay more for what you value more. The government is paying for things it shouldn't be paying for.
A rabbi, referring to Joseph's 20% in Genesis, said 20% is the limit for income taxes. However Egypt combined both government and religion, so that's where you get the 20% - the religious tithe and the government tax.
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/27/06 02:54:15 PM |
Age 42, IA |
While I wholeheartedly agree with your opinions on taxation, I don't agree that the passages mentioned under the "Capitol Gains" section refer to money. I believe they refer to spiritual gains - the more faith one has, the more faith he gains; the more love one has, the more he gains; and so forth. Jesus' parables dealt with the spiritual, not the physical, just as His Kingdom is spiritual, not physical. But I still wish we had a flat tax instead of an income tax!
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Re: The Bible and Taxes
| Posted On: 07/27/06 02:02:14 PM |
Age 43, TX |
I enjoyed the article on taxes. The only problem that I saw was under income tax. All people would pay the same percentage, a tithe, but would not pay the same dollar amount. The more you made, the more you would pay. In addition you had the corners of the field, which were still a cost. Again the larger the field, the more you paid.
On a different note, that was not mentioned but related, is whether we should pay these unjust taxes. We should follow the example of the Lord of Glory. He paid an occupying Roman force taxes they had no right to. If anyone had the right not to pay an unfair, unlawful tax it was Jesus.
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Re: Re: The Bible and Taxes and the Fairtax
| Posted On: 07/27/06 01:19:03 PM |
Age 57, MO |
I hear you loud and clear !
I am writing because of you heart felt reply.
I work for a large group of people and some Congressman that are going to change the way you live and you will never again be forced to file a incometax return.
Please don't give up and go to www.fairtax.org and look at our organation and tell your friends and you husband that we are comming to help.
Please help me by getting the word out to all the people you can.
We are staging a Rally in Orlando Florida Sat. 29 of July and we plan to have between 10,000 and 20,000 people show up.
Neal Bortz and Congressman John Linder will
be the main host.
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