Re: Apologetics and the Emerging Church
| Posted On: 07/26/06 12:50:49 PM |
Age 22, KS |
I have some major problems with the arguments Sean made in this conversation with Tony. Sean stated, "But when it comes to missions, our first model is not Jesus, but Paul. Jesus had a unique calling, to die on the cross for sin so we could have eternal life. But Paul and the early church took Jesus' life-changing message to the world."
I am baffled by this--how a person can say that Jesus had a unique calling that is summed-up in His death on the cross and propitiation for sin--is beyond me. If that is all we say about Jesus, then we are, in essence, ignoring what Jesus taught us about the Christian life, about loving people, about ministry, etc.
The fact that Sean claims that our first model for missions is not Jesus, but Paul is a sad statement indeed. Let's ignore the sending of the 70, the charge to the disciples, the Great Commission, not to mention Jesus' own personal ministry throughout Judea, Samaria, Galilee, and so on.
I am highly disappointed that Sean would say something like this, and no doubt stand by it enough to publish it.
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Re: Re: Apologetics and the Emerging Church
| Posted On: 07/26/06 09:06:15 AM |
Age 31, IN |
This argumentation of Paul vs. Jesus starts sounding like some things I've read from Islamic apologists. What the Muslim doesn't seem to understand and it would seem some Christians do not as well, is that Scripture is Scripture whether in Genesis, Revelation, Matthew Mark Luke and John, or Paul's epistles. "In the beginning was the Word" the logos, Jesus. When Paul is merely expressing an opinion he makes it clear that is what he is doing. For the Bible to be inerrant, nothing Paul says should contradict anything that Christ said. It just bugs me when someone says, well Jesus was silent on (insert issue here) during his ministry. Perhaps, but He is responsible for the whole of scripture. So anything touched on in the Bible was touched on by Jesus. Unless of course, one does not hold that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. In which case I always ask, then why do you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior at all? I suppose that is a different discussion. I read a ton of these WVW articles and hadnt sounded of in a while so I thought I would for Paul and the validity and the wholeness of scripture.
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Re: Apologetics and the Emerging Church
| Posted On: 07/25/06 12:49:01 PM |
Age 69, GA |
I have similar feelings re the near worship of
Paul by Christians today. (I call it Paulianity). The Baptist church in particular incorporates his every remark as
Gospel. Granted, he was favored and taught by Christ b ut Paul was first just an ordinary human being and therefore had opinions of his own. Women in the Baptist Church are denied equal status with men due to Paul's seeming misogyny. He said, for instance, that HE (not Christ) did not allow women to teach men. He often characterized women as empty-headed, easily-influenced beings. Christ, on the other hand, appeared to consider them on equal footing with other of his disciples.
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Re: Apologetics and the Emerging Church
| Posted On: 07/25/06 10:48:36 AM |
Age 62, VA |
When I read the article, I had no idea who Tony or Sean was and read without having a bias for or against either. Wow! It was quickly evident who had a clear biblical position.
Tony, my apologies, but your message makes NO biblical sense whatsoever. You spoke volumes about your theological understanding in the one statement when you said..." Of course, Jesus very much tried to persuade others to join The Way".
A main focus for me as I minister is to make sure believers can clearly articulate the WHY and WHAT of their beliefs that enables them to "model" Christ for a lost world.
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Re: Apologetics and the Emerging Church
| Posted On: 07/25/06 10:08:20 AM |
Age 45, MT |
Paul did say, "follow me as I follow Christ"? I think Tony started a different subject here, instead of sticking to the point.
Tony said to get students to follow their imaginations. Inaginations are of the soul/flesh, not spirit. Jesus said to worship in Spirit and truth. Imaginations cannot truly worship God because they are not spirit. Spirit gives birth to spirit, and flesh gives birth to flesh. John 3:6. Most of the time our imaginations are untruths. Jesus is not only "The Way" he is "The Truth". If students don't have the absolute Truth, then they don't have Jesus. They have another gospel, that is not the Truth. They might even have "vain imaginations" as one scripture puts it, and falsely believe that they do have Truth, when in actuality they don't. If you ever read Barna Statistics on the condition of our Christian youth today, you will realize they are badly in need of gospel Truth, because most haven't a clue. the statistics are appalling.
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Re: Apologetics and the Emerging Church
| Posted On: 07/25/06 10:07:33 AM |
Age 42, IL |
Tony says that the resurrection is not supported by fact and that no event in history is supported by fact therefore we need to go into the realm of our theological imaginations? Oh please, in that realm everything IS "fact"? Maybe nothing is real...not Jesus, not you, not me...what's important is that we understand each other and feel warm and fuzzy! ....just pondering in my "theological imagination"!
Susan McCurdy
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Re: Apologetics and the Emerging Church
| Posted On: 07/25/06 08:23:20 AM |
Age 45, NC |
I think this is one of the best articles that has been run relating to the emerging church. It is fair, thoughtful, rational, civil, respectful and challenges the reader to think.
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Re: Apologetics and the Emerging Church
| Posted On: 07/21/06 05:09:53 PM |
Age 37, IL |
Thank you, Sean and Tony...
I appreciate your sharp intellectual debate AND the spirit that you both bring to the discussion.
Sean, I am stunned to hear you say Jesus came to die on the cross for our sins, but Paul and the early church show us how to spread the message. While I appreciate Paul and the early church, I think it is a mistake to conclude that it was not the Holy Spirit that empowered the spread of the gospel from Pentecost onward. This goes back to the promise of Jesus to send the Spirit to empower the witness of the apostles. Jesus personally called Paul. The Holy Spirit indwelt and empowered Paul. The life of the follower of Jesus is to be just that...a life of following Jesus. Paul helps us understand that, but Jesus is the center of our faith. Jesus is the one we are to be like. People will know we are disciples if we love each other like Jesus, not present rational arguments like Paul.
In Christ,
mdd
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