Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 12/27/06 06:52:00 AM |
Age 58, MO |
The Church is, by New Testament definition, a fellowship of believers, not a mix of believers and unbelievers, making the term "seeker-sensitive Church" an oxymoron. A "seeker" is, by definition, not one of the fellowship. The New Testament is clear on WHY believers should assemble and it's primarily for their own benefit, to wit, the "building up of the saints." Believers are in combat with the world its views almost 24/7 and they need time together to get their head screwed back on straight, to rest from the fight and be with "one another of the same mind." Whether the unbelievers are seekers, wolves, or "tares" is mostly irrelevant - they are just as much strangers to the Church as the Church is to them in their world.
|
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 11/06/06 04:23:06 AM |
Age 44, U |
Good article. I've been in a 'seeker sensitive church' and I have found the services shallow, to say the least.
The Bible is used, and to be honest, there is little to fault or to diagree with. But, you can't help but feel something isn't right with the whole service.
Then you realise it is all soulish and not spritual. It is not lead by the Holy Spirit, but is done to entertain the masses.
In closing, I'll leave with a scripture.
1 Cor 10v31: Therefore, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
God bless.
|
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 08/24/06 12:17:06 AM |
Age 56, MN |
Bob,
I like your article, but I'm confused by the paragraph on music. Is it okay to have music with Christian themes or not? Our fundamental Bible-believing church played Folsom City Blues by Johnny Cash at a city parade this summer, because it has the "theme" of a man regretting his sins. They also played Christian songs, such as "I'll Fly Away." They wanted to appeal to non-believers in the crowd. For some reason, I don't have peace about this, so I am studying Scripture & researching articles. I also talked to our 2 pastors. Could you or anyone else out there please help me? Maybe I'm wrong Thanks & God bless! -Cathy
|
Re: Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 08/04/06 01:02:49 PM |
Age 34, MO |
So again Sarah T,
You told us you would be contacting Beth Moore. Did you? Did you hear back? If you did not write to her or her ministry my question is, why not? If you have heard from her or her ministry, why are you not sharing it with those whom you said you would? Maybe you simply wrote to them, and they never responded? Jimmy
|
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/27/06 02:47:13 PM |
Age 34, MO |
Darren, this will be my last response to you on this subject, as I am convinced we have convered the topic well.
Sadly though, I find your position on Warren so common these days amongst professing Christians. It amounts to "eat the meat, spit out the bones" reasoning. If we were discussing "non-essential to salvation doctrine" you would have scriptural footing to stand on. As we have seen however, this is not the case when Warren finds fault with essential to salvation doctrine. Thanks for the discussion.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables." (2 Tim. 4:3,4)
|
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/26/06 04:07:38 PM |
Age 39, TX |
Jimmy: As I said before, I don't agree with everything Rick Warren does, so why would I defend everything he does. My original post referenced Warren to make the point that Pastor DeWaay goes out of his way to criticize him. Some are valid criticisms but some are not. In the same way he is misapplying Scripture by accusing all seeker-senstive churches of quenching the spirit because. If he were to say some seeker-sensitive churches, I would have no problem.
|
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/26/06 10:25:54 AM |
Age 34, MO |
Darren,
You state, "In Russia, the lost are afraid to go to the church for fear of persecution so we take the church to them. Were we being seeker-sensitive?" No one is arguing against taking the gospel to the world. In fact, this is what we are arguing for.
You state, "...we are to pray without ceasing with a mind focused on God and not some altered state of consciousness." To pray without ceasing does not mean to employ vain repetitions. If this is not what Warren is communicating, why when speaking or writing on this subject does he recommend writings/writers which DO make altered states of conciousness the goal? (This is documented fact and if you email me I'll provide such). God does not have ADD, nor does he condone altered states of the mind. In all honesty, I'm beginning to wonder why you have chosen to not address certain other issues I have raised about Warren (i.e. his partnering with New Agers and New Age organizations, his endoresement of New Age writings/authors, his recommending of mystics and their literature, his teaching that "God is IN everything and everyone", etc...)?
In 2005 (Pew Magazine), Warren stated, "The word 'fundamentalist' actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity." [Rick Warren, Pew Magazine 2005], etc...)
I'm sure you are aware of the Five Fundamentals that this document laid out. For those who don't know, they are; 1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, 2. The Virgin Birth, 3. The Blood Atonement, 4. The Bodily Resurrection Of Christ, 5. The inerrancy of the scriptures. Darren, according to Scripture, are any of these five doctrines "legalistic" or a "narrow view of Christianity"? Since Warren thinks this way about one, some, or all of the five fundamentals, is he really "God-centered" in his doctrine as you suggest? In light of these facts, is his a "Bible-centric Gospel" as you suggest? Jimmy
|
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/24/06 10:47:07 AM |
Age 39, TX |
Jimmy: Lets look at the author of this article and his church. The website is http://twincityfellowship.com/ministries.php. They advertise with a website about things they offer and even events with free food and music. I am sure they have pews or chairs and hymnals or music on an overhead or big screen. They probably have greeters at the door and plates for offering. Are pews and hymnals in the Bible? I think not, but what is biblical are believers devoted to the apostles teaching, and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and prayer (Acts 2:42). I am sure Pastor DeWaays church does what they do to feed their flock and share Christ with unbelievers. Is the food and music designed to reach out to their community or are they selling out to be sensitive to seekers. All churches are seeker sensitive to some degree and some churches have mistakenly gone too far to reach out to their community. I have served in churches in Russia that meet in a home with 25 members and we would advertise by word of mouth that we were having a picnic to reach out to the lost in that community and for fellowship with the members. In Russia, the lost are afraid to go to the church for fear of persecution so we take the church to them. Were we being seeker-sensitive? This is the Celtic Way of Evangelism. If a church does not violate Scripture, we should have no problem with their style. If a church is doing something unbiblical, then we have something do call them out on, but if we just dont like it because it is not within our tradition, we have no stance upon which to criticize them. The breath prayer is unbiblical when it becomes a mindless and meaningless chant. How many churches today practice litanies, or read from the Book of Common Prayer over and over. What about singing the same line of a hymn over and over? Are those breath prayers? The difference is in what you do with your mind. The point is that we are to pray without ceasing with a mind focused on God and not some altered state of consciousness. I am not in worship of Rick Warren nor do I want or desire to participate in his program. There is no man who I follow 100%. I probably read more of John Piper than anyone else. My point in even discussing Rick Warren in this article is because Pastor DeWaay has devoted so much energy to being critical of him. I agree with some of his criticisms but he has gone too far in some areas and seems to now criticize everything Rick Warren does. I dont like the way Rick Warren uses some paraphrased versions and I think he missed opportunities to share the Gospel but he has impacted millions with the Gospel. There very few people who have been impacted negatively by a Purpose Driven Program, compared with thousands who have heard a Bible-centric Gospel through his teaching and become mature Christians. It is in that regard that I support him. A few mishaps or misjudgments on his part do not drive me to condemn him. I am especially disgusted with Christians on the Slice of Laodicea blog calling him the anti-christ. The Gospel is clearly written in his book the Purpose Driven Life with a God-centered direction and the fact that a million pastors see it and a few do not is strange to me. I am a student of church history and have read of many cults and heresies through the ages. The two elements you see are generally a denial of the authority of Scripture and a denial of salvation in Christ alone. I am seeing that among a few in the emergent church but I dont see it in Rick Warren Darren
|
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/24/06 12:33:43 AM |
Age 34, MO |
Darren,
Now that we've mended fences:) let's get back to the topic of Rick Warren and seeker-sensitive, for they are both important issues. FIRST TO SEEKER SENSITIVE: If a person tells you in conversation he would like to come to "church" but is concerned that he doesn't have the proper attire, then of course it's appropriate to assure him that is not a concern at your congregation. But, for anyone to advertise candles, donuts & coffee, music style, clothing attire, etc.. as a way of enticing someone to visit a fellowship is not a method found in Scripture. Does it work in some instances? Maybe. But is this God's way of doing things or man's way? I submit to you that a fellowship who evangelizes in this mannar, a manner not found in Scripture, is a fellowship most likely unwilling to submit to God's authority in matters of doctrine. Without sound doctrine, all else is window dressing. We don't find the Apostle Paul wooing people to meetings where the gospel would be proclaimed. He understood that his job was to simply go into the world preaching and teaching the gospel, leaving the rest to the Holy Spirit to use that planted Word to convict of sin that can lead to repentance, then belief, then desire to be in fellowship with other believers. We would all do well to get back to God's ordained means of reaching the lost. NOW TO RICK WARREN: This man is dangerous because of his affiliations with New Age teachers and organizations, his proof-texting of Scripture, his written insertions of New Age phrases, his promotion of contemplative "prayer", his promotion of dominionist theology, etc... He is adept at mixing truth and error which is one reason many Christians are fooled by him. You've heard the phrase, "1% arsenic mixed with 99% pure water still kills 100% of the time". This is the case with Warren. Now, Luke 18:13 is not a "breath prayer" with all due respect. It is simply a plea to God from a broken sinner. Notice the publican does not REPEAT the plea over and over again (vain repetitions) as Warren suggests we should do. Please research Warren's involvement in, and promotion of, Contemplative "Prayer" (A Time of Departing by Ray Yungen is a good place to start). Lastly, I should have clarified my comment on Statements of Faith; they are only as good as the preaching/teaching they produce. Darren, please do not dismiss the warnings about Warren. Jimmy
|
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/23/06 10:35:29 AM |
Age 39, TX |
No sweat. Thanks for saying that. Love you brother.Darren
|
Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 07/23/06 07:33:32 AM |
Age 52, VA |
The Bible says that - none seek God, no not one. The only seeker is Jesus himself. He came to seek and save the lost. Once a lost person has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit he now has an internal desire to seek the things of God, apart from the Biblical Gospel, nothing external is required. Salvation is purely the work of God, not the work of man. Now, the Church's job is to feed that formerly lost person with the milk/meat of Biblical doctrine (the Bible calls this discipleship). All of the fluff and frivolity of the "seeker-sensitive" movement is one of the ways that the enemy sows tares among the wheat by using man designed external means to cajole individuals into becoming a "believer." This is Finney style synergism at its worst.
|
Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/23/06 01:34:00 AM |
Age 34, MO |
Darren,
I just re-read my first comment to your post and feel I must apologize and ask forgiveness for repeatedly pointing out how I felt about your research on Warren. You obviously know where I still stand, but it could have been done in a more loving mannar on my part. I am sorry.--Jimmy
|
Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 07/23/06 01:10:22 AM |
Age 34, MO |
Hello again Sarah T.,
This is a bit off topic, but I am curious about something. When posting at one of Dewaay's earlier articles, you stated: "I intend on asking her (Beth Moore) if she KNEW what they (Be Still DVD participants) reportedly believe/teach and if she initially knew they would be on the DVD (one of the interviews I read indicated she did not, which was poor discernment to ask/research before being a part of such a project.)..." So my question is this: Did you write to her with your questions? If so, have you heard back from her or someone at her ministry? I'm sure Pastor Dewaay won't mind you posting your answer on this thread, but if you'd rather email me personally, you can. owcgallatin@hotmail.com Thanks, Jimmy
|
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/23/06 12:07:58 AM |
Age 39, TX |
Jimmy: I would respectfully request that you tone down your posts a little. I am not sure you would talk like this if we were having coffee. It is hard to converse with you when you are so condescending. I probably should have worded it a little differently, but I meant that from my research or what I have seen and read of Rick Warren is what I am basing my statements. I do not claim to support everything Rick Warren says or does nor do I claim my research is scholary. More directly to the point of my original post was that Pastor DeWaay states that seeker-sensitive churches quench the spirit. I dont think he supported his point. I have heard him on several interviews and I think his exegetics are rock-solid, but his application is misapplied. For example, breath prayers. He and others would correctly state that using breath prayers to reach an altered state of consciousness is unbiblical. However, a breath prayer, such as God thank you for this day or God thank you for your creation is biblical and that is Rick Warren is suggesting. Luke 18:13 describes a breath prayer. Therefore, I would compare this example with this article by Pastor DeWaay as being proper exegetics misapplied. By the way, the emergent church is suggesting that doctrinal statements are useless so you might want to be careful on that one. You correctly state that false teachers use them but that does not mean that I have to throw them all out. -Darren
|
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 07/21/06 11:57:31 PM |
Age 53, OK |
First of all the Word reminds us that there is no one that seeks after God. The lost cannot worship in spirit or truth, and the purpose of the gathering of the Church is to worship, to study the word, to edify, to exercise spiritual gifts, etc.
A seeker service might be something to use to attract the unchurched for evangelism, but it cannot be THE meeting of the Church for worship and instruction.
The root of the matter is failing to properly understand the sovereignty of God, the power of the gospel, and the authority of Scripture.
So long as the Church is splintered and lacking discernment these man-focused activities will be pursued.
Rather we must be about the business of doing God's work God's way.
For evangelism consider how Paul preached on Mars Hill. He went to them at their event and took their error to point them to the truth by proclaiming truth.
|
Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/21/06 11:27:02 PM |
Age 34, MO |
38,MO:
Well stated from my fellow Missourian. I like your discernment. What city do you live in if I might ask? My email is owcgallatin@hotmail.com
Blessings,
Jimmy
|
Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 07/21/06 10:55:51 PM |
Age 34, MO |
MO,
You state that you "feel like the term seeker sensitive is a bad way to describe this movement".
This is like saying you feel that Ron was out of line when he agreed to refer to his friend Jim by the name Jim promoted himself to be--which was Jim. In other words, those who started this man-centered movement are the same ones who began promoting themselves to the unchurched as "seeker-sensitive".
Now, if you know of other churches that promote themselves as "seeker-sensitive", but who are Christ-centered in their doctrine, then consider this:
They are sending a mixed message, for the gospel of Christ is not "sensitive" to any of the wants of sinful man. Jesus Christ offended virtually everyone in the religious establishment of His day, and yet He was INCARNATE love and truth. The Church that boldy proclaims the gospel of Christ is anything but "seeker-sensitive". Rather it is faitful, and most likely offensive to most "seekers".
|
Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/21/06 05:52:15 PM |
Age 34, MO |
Darren,
FIRST: You state, "I have researched Rick Warren both from his speaking and his writing and compared that with articles like this. I think the items you have listed are not supported by what he actually says but are rather a summary of what other say about him." One of the items listed was breath prayers. In all your "research" are you errroneously suggesting Warren doesn't promote breath prayers, or are you mistakingly suggesting breath prayers are not Eastern Mysticism? Either option reveals you have not done your "research". Additionally, Warren does teach in his writing (PDL) that God is "in everything and everyone". Please show me in Scripture where this pantheistic notion is taught. It is not, period. Again, not good "research" on your part. SECOND: You state, "It is o.k. for him (a preacher) to befriend a non-Christian and even recommend that persons work but we all need to be careful about how we use that." If a preacher were trying to get his flock to understand the faulty teachings of an unregenerate, sure he could recommend his/her works. But, when a pastor claims to take his reader on a "spiritual journey" (like Warren does in PDL), then quotes favorably and/or recommends the works of unregenerates, he is in opposition to the teachings of the Bible, period. THIRD: You state, "His belief system is biblical from his doctrinal statement, to his books, to what he says." You honestly could not have done more shoddy "research" my friend. Email me, and I'll send you countless quotes by Warren that are anything but biblical. By the way, doctrinal statements are useless. I know of many false prophets/teachers today who have orthodox doctrinal statements. FOURTH: You state, "You might not like his style, but that does not mean its not biblical." Style is not the issue; substance is. FIFTH: You state, "Our church has never used his church or programs but we are fully seeker-sensitive and let me describe what that is." Darren, it is a given that Pastor Dewaay is not labeling churches who have liberty in attire, "seeker sensitive". Your argument is a straw man, and not a good one at that.--Jimmy
|
Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
| Posted On: 07/20/06 07:49:58 AM |
Age 32, FL |
I must thank you for your witty and articulate response. I am truly better for having considered your deep and meaningful comments on this...Oh, wait. Never mind.
|
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 07/19/06 09:56:56 PM |
Age 54, MN |
Many churches do not call themselves "seeker sensitive" but the influence from this movement has spread to so many churches. The end result is the unregenerate sinners often running the church. My last two churches,fit this description. Thanks for your wisdom Pastor DeWaay.
|
|
|
|
|
