Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/07/06 10:27:25 AM |
Age 55, MN |
Jim, Thank you for your two wonderful articles on this topic. I fully agree with you and think our entire evangelical movement needs to take a serious look at what are the true claims of the gospel and what are the signs of a true conversion. Pastor Bob DeWaay
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Re: Re: Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/07/06 02:48:52 AM |
Age 33, RO |
It is a perversion and distortion of the true Gospel to claim that one can take Christ as Savior and refuse His Lordship over his life and still claim to be regenerate. Try doing a study of the actual words that Jesus, His disciples, the apostles really preached to people, of the requirements that God puts forth for salvation. It is quite shocking. I did this once and copied in a separate notebook every verse in which Jesus or the apostles preached of God's requirements for salvation or the characteristics of those saved. You will be amazed how many times repentence is mentioned, DOING the will of God, keeping the word of God, following Christ. No, it's not a works salvation. Nobody here says you need to attain perfection as a condition to salvation, nobody would ever be saved since we are all depraved. Nobody is saying until you have all of the details of your life in accord with God's commandments you don't show you are saved. What the Bible DOES say however is that if one doesn't live as a LIFESTYLE in a way that honors God, he is deceived. That you have not succeeded yet in straightening all the areas of your life in accordance to the Bible is one thing, it may be a matter of growth, but there MUST BE the recognition that Chist is LORD and will be no less in your life and the little amount of Christian doctrine that you as a new convert would know or understand you MUST BE WILLING TO APPLY. We do have holy desires and still fail in many respects and can be frustrated at our own sinfulness, but if the DESIRE is not there in the first place to obey Christ as Lord, you may say what you will, you have never been saved to start with. That is a true Biblical message, though it doesn't tickle people's ears so is not popular.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not [in Gr. IS NOT SUBJECT TO] the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3: 36)
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Re: Re: Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/07/06 02:30:06 AM |
Age 33, RO |
A.W.Tozer on the meaning of accepting Christ ('What It Means To Accept Christ', excerpt from 'That Incredible Christian'):
"To accept Christ is to form an attachment to the Person of our Lord Jesus altogether unique in human experience. The attachment is intellectual, volitional and emotional. The believer is intellectually convinced that Jesus is both Lord and Christ; he has set his will to follow Him at any cost and soon his heart is enjoying the exquisite sweetness of His fellowship.
This attachment is all-inclusive in that it joyfully accepts Christ for all that He is. There is no craven division of offices whereby we may acknowledge His Saviourhood today and withhold decision on His Lordship till tomorrow. The true believer owns Christ as his All in All without reservation. He includes all of himself, leaving no part of his being unaffected by the revolutionary transaction.
Further, his attachment to Christ is all-exclusive. The Lord becomes to him not one of several rival interests, but the one exclusive attraction forever. He orbits around Christ as the earth around the sun, held in thrall by the magnetism of His love, drawing all his life and light and warmth from Him. In this happy state he is given other interests, it is true, but these are all determined by his relation to his Lord.
That we accept Christ in this all-inclusive, all-exclusive way is a divine imperative. Here faith makes its leap into God through the Person and work of Christ, but it never divides the work from the Person. It believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, the whole Christ without modification or reservation, and thus it receives and enjoys all that He did in His work of redemption, all that He is now doing in heaven for His own and all that He does in and through them.
To accept Christ is to know the meaning of the words "as he is, so are we in this world" (1 John 4: 17). We accept His friends as our friends, His enemies as our enemies, His ways as our ways, His rejection as our rejection, His cross as our cross, His life as our life and His future as our future.
If this is what we mean when we advise the seeker to accept Christ, we had better explain it to him. He may get into deep spiritual trouble unless we do."
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Re: Re: Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/07/06 01:20:51 AM |
Age 62, TX |
Baptist or other antinominist, consider that the issue over eternal security is about:
1. conditional grace based upon continued faith (falling from grace), 2. unconditional grace that holds faith will continue for the elect (election or predestination/Reformed/Calvinist), 3. and preservation and perseverance of the saints that holds that grace is effective even if faith ceases (once saved always saved - antinomianism).
All three positions believe in eternal security because Christ is competent! The question is: What is the part of the faith of the believer? Old Glen gboydsmith@sbcglobal.net
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Re: Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/07/06 01:15:07 AM |
Age 62, TX |
Works and Phariseeism is the log in most of our eyes. It happens when we take our focus off Jesus. Old Glen gboydsmith@sbcglobal.net
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/07/06 01:10:40 AM |
Age 62, TX |
1. LAW - "It is no use giving us rules of conduct; we cannot keep them. Let God go on saying' Thou shall not,' yet we shall to the end of time. A lecture will not solve our problem; we need a Saviour, the Son of God. He was not only 'made flesh' in the womb of Mary; He was 'made sin' on the Cross of Calvary. For our sake God made Jesus to be sin, who knew no sin, so that in Christ Jesus we might become the Righteousness of God." Basic Christianity by John R. W. Stott, p.77
2. LORD - Is there a scripture that encourages us to accept Jesus as Saviour? Jesus is the Saviour! Have we not been made the offer to make Him Lord? Many want His Salvation without His ownership of our time, money, possessions, our family, and our ever-loving-devotion with all our hearts. Salvation is not about happiness but peace. Salvation is not about rights but serving. Salvation is not about control but surrender. Salvation is not about self-esteem but humility. Salvation is not about leading but submission. Salvation is not about me but about Jesus Who owns me.
3. FULL of the SPIRIT - Being spiritual full is not about my church, its not about worship, its not about music, its not about programs, its not about preaching, its not about Bible study, its not about my attendance, or even its not about the kind of people saved or unsaved attendees or non-attendees. How can I not be overfilled if I am able to read the Holy Gods divine revelation in the Bible everyday? This is so unbelievable exciting. I read the Bible and weep with joy and humility. Read to me a genealogy. Do you know what it says? It is so very exciting if the Holy Spirit is illuminating the meaning! I am so astounded, I weep.
4. GODLINESS - How can I not be overflowing with godliness if I am permitted into the Holy of Holies to commune with the Maker and Sustainer of the universe Who so loved the world that He made my presence in His Presence possible by the propitiation of my sin? In His Presence is the only place that I am whole. At all other times I am a broken sinner.
5. PRAYER - Think about this. Jesus takes my worthless prayer and places it with His and presents it to the Father. I get to pray all the day long with Jesus as my High Priest! And it is my privilege to speak of His Glory at every opportunity. All other conversation is in the way of talking about Jesus.
6. BORN AGAIN - I suffer pain for the lovers of this world, its sports, its food, its entertainment, its pleasure, its greed, its lust, and its selfishness. With all I have I yell in ways to get them to listen: Oh, if for a minute they could see with the eyes of angels or visit the grave they would still not believe, but if they enter into His Holy Presence nothing is ever the same! Born again! A new creature! He who hungers and thirst after righteousness will arrive. Jesus looses not a single one. All others confound my understanding in their unbelief and absence of desire to participate in the only eternity in the divine Presence.
7. RELATIONSHIP - How excited is your spiritual leader? When was the last time your pastor met the life changing God one on one? Is he overflowing from this encounter with Holy God? We should care more about Who he knows and how well he knows Him than what he knows. But churches do not.
8. DIVINE ABSENCE - Maybe the problem with church attendance is that God doesnt show up when the 37% of the members do.
9. HALLELUIAH - When meeting another like myself its halleluiah time! When two or more are gathered together in my name . . . Old Glen gboydsmith@sbcglobal.com
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 06:29:41 PM |
Age 64, FL |
This article points out all the reasons I am not a Baptist.
As children (about 80 years ago) my Mother, Uncle and cousins were delighted when Grandpa bought a phonograph. One Sunday afternoon they put on a record and were dancing happily around the house, when a "good" Baptist from their church saw them. These little children were told they must stand up before the whole church and confess their "sin", or get kicked out of church. My Mother and Uncle refused and he never went to church again. He was one of the dearest Christian men I ever knew. It seems to me the Baptists are very much like the old Pharisees.
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Re: Re: Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 06:26:00 PM |
Age 40, NM |
I see your point and agree. There certainly is a process of "sanctification" that comes AFTER salvation. But your use of Romans 6-8 seems off to me. Romans 6 and 8 speak of great victory, while Romans 7 speaks of a losing battle. It seems (although I'm no authority) that the difficulty that Paul describes in Romans 7 has to do with his efforts to live according to the requirements of the law, apart from grace (in his past as a pharisee, but not a believer)which is IMPOSSIBLE! But God's grace is God's power granted to God's people to "say no to ungodliness". That's why at the end of all of Paul's epistles he closes saying, "may the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all", or something to that effect. Since these letters were written to believers, he must not have been talking about "saving grace", but the grace to overcome, the grace to live in victory, the grace to represent Christ well as his ambassadors, the grace to refuse to give in to temptation, etc. I believe Paul was walking in such victory when he penned the book of Romans, but was remembering how difficult it was before Christ to please God in chapter 7. True Christians will also walk in true victory as well. I don't believe the author is calling into question the doctrine of eternal security, just that many who call themselves Christians are not, which lines up with Jesus teaching that 1) many will be surprised on judgment day to find out they were not known by Christ, and 2) the road is narrow and "few" there be that find it.
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Re: Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 02:57:54 PM |
Age 44, NE |
It's good to read of your concern for people to acknowledge Jesus Christ as ruler ("Lord") of their lives. We need to see more Christians living out this reality.
Regarding your statement that Jesus cannot be a person's Savior without being their Lord, you may want to compare Mark 12:30 with Deut 6:5 to see at least one way the word Lord is used in the New Testament. Jesus uses the Greek word translated "Lord" (that *can* be understood as master or ruler) to translate the Hebrew "Yahweh" that is God's name. I don't think the Jewish leaders of Jesus' time were too concerned if Jesus' followers called Him "Master Jesus" or "Sir Jesus." But when they insisted that He was "Yahweh (Lord) Jesus," this was intolerable because it equated Jesus with God.
If we ask people to state that "Jesus is Lord" at the time of salvation, we are asking them to personally acknowledge that He is the God of this universe (Yahweh) who satisfied God the Father's wrath against our sin by living a perfect life and shedding His blood through His death on the cross. I think we must be careful not to make the requirements for living the life of a disciple (growing in sanctification and submission to Christ's rule, that is, His lordship) the same as the requirements for entering the life of a disciple (complete faith/trust in Christ as Savior). This conviction and wrestling, as you stated it, is this process of sanctification.
If we require absolute, complete, and "unconditional" surrender to Christ's "lordship" (this is, rulership) as part of the salvation experience, I'm afraid there are a miniscule number of people who are truly saved. I frankly don't recall one evangelical who proclaimed (publicly, at least) that, unless you surrendered *every* part of your life to Christ when you trusted him for salvation, you could not become God's child. Salvation is simple but it is not easy.
I commend you for your desire to see Jesus Christ's rule and reign be part of every Christian's life.
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 02:24:09 PM |
Age 44, NE |
Insightful article that points us to Christ's call to discipleship - "Come, follow Me." Evangelicals seem to have distorted the message to "Come, get saved." While salvation begins the process of eternal life here on Earth, Christ wants us to continue in this new life by abiding in Him and being filled with the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for this well-presented writing that does not come across as ranting against any one person or group in spite of using a particular denomination as an illustration.
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Re: Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 02:20:57 PM |
Age 45, AR |
Sir, your assertion that true salvation is Lordship Salvation is neither biblical nor Baptist. One is forced, ultimately, to arrive at a place where he advocates Falling from Grace, abandoning the biblical truth of Eternal Security, when he adopts this new-found heresy of Lordship Salvation. As a a saved person, I should make Jesus the Lord of my life, but if I fail to do so... he is faithful and unfailing, to keep me in his eternal state of protection. My salvation depends on Jesus, not on my ability to surrender to Jesus' lordship. Paul spoke of his own struggle in Romans 6-8. Also see Phil 3:9: "I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God's law, but I trust Christ to save me." NLT
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 11:32:36 AM |
Age 43, TX |
An excellent article that applies not just to Southern Baptist, but to all evangelical denominations. In addition to what you have stated, I would like to add the insistance to the lordship of Christ. If Jesus is not their Lord, he is not their savior. The whole concept of Jesus as savior, but not as Lord is totally unbiblical. I believe that the process of conviction is the wrestling between God and man as to who will be Lord of their life. They need to be left there until the question is settled. We may settle for a conditional surrender, but God only accepts unconditional surrender to His lordship.
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 10:49:35 AM |
Age 73, KS |
Our pastor graduated from Southwestern Seminary in Ft. Worth. His sermons are nothing more than a buildup to his invitation, which can last up to 30 minutes. He is a firm advocate of the concept that if you respond to his invitation, you are saved. Also, he is big on having people recite the sinners prayer and, thereby, being born again. Often asking several people, especially children, at once to recite it.
We live in a sparsely populated area with very few choices regarding churches. SBC seminaries must teach the basic doctrines of the Christian faith (as in Romans through Revelation) rather than teaching men to put on a performance, Sunday after Sunday, in an effort to inspire sinners to come to the front of the church in an emotional outburst that will last, maybe, for 48 hours.
Best regards. And God bless you!
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 09:58:49 AM |
Age 45, GA |
When I read the title I was angry being a Baptist second and a follower of Chirst first. But when you talked of getting back to the basics and that numbers don't mean anything it is the desire of the group to know about Christ and a desire to follow him that is needed. I was totally floored. You are saying what I have been preaching to anyone who will listen that we need to get back to studying the Bible and seeing what the principles are in it and applying them to our lives this is only done by prayer and reading the word and asking what does this mean to me and how can I put it to use to the glory of God. We need more people talking like this and demanding an accounting of our leaders but first we need to look at ourselves and make sure we are doing everything we can to spread the message of Christ love and sacrifice and let the Holy Spirit do its work in all. Ours is not to convert any but to tell all. As to the issue with kids the main reason I believe that the fall away when teenagers is not the failure of them believeing in the first place but the failure of parents and teachers to grow them up in God's ways. We just like in schools today have given our responcability to others and then complain that our children are being taught nothing. This has to end if we are going to be who God wants us to be.
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Re: Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 07:48:40 AM |
Age 67, TX |
Thank you for seeing our responsibility to reach out to our church family. It caused me to see that I have not put my feet to moving as my LORD has been telling me to do. The love we show for other believers is a witness of the grace of God. Contacting those who have dropped out of church could reveal a need that is an opportunity of ministry. Too, it may even reveal that the person had never received Jesus as their LORD and Savior.
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 07:46:12 AM |
Age 33, RO |
Thank you for this article and especially for the link to the one about children's conversion. I would be very interested in more materials about bringing up children for Christ and discerning their spiritual condition.
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 07:35:40 AM |
Age 67, TX |
I have always found the words of our LORD in Matthew 7:21-23 to be so very frightening. May God remove any deception from church members who have not received Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior. To read those words should cause a person to reflect on what they do believe. This article and the feedback from the man in New York caused me to see that we should reach out to those church members who do not come or who only come to preaching on Sunday morning and are never seen or have fellowship with other belivers. It is not so much for the numbers or to make us feel good but the realization that they are missing a blessing and the joy of worship.
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 06:08:55 AM |
Age 65, TX |
Amen to your article ! Having been founded in an inerrant Bible Church, I've learned the truths of your article. I was hurt and wounded and was told simply to be responsible. Therefore, I reached out to others.....
I am currently leading a church worship service within the confines of a nursing home; soon 6 years of Sunday worship. Jesus said "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in My Name, there am I" - So I encourage others by reading the Word of God, singing about Jesus. My southern baptist home church does nothing to help this ministry. Christians are ABC people - the simplicity of life through Jesus getting to God. The Work of God is "believing in Jesus" ----
Thank you for your work in reform.
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 06:03:01 AM |
Age 68, OH |
Jim is right on the mark and I hope to see this kind of teaching begin to pervade all "evangelical" denominations and churches everywhere. People have been looking for easier ways than the biblical way to get others converted, but it never works. Take it from one who failed miserably at the task in his brief tenure as a Southern Baptist pastor due to ignorance of all such basic matters of ministry, me.
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Re: Southern Baptists, An Unregenerate Denomination (Part 2)
| Posted On: 07/06/06 03:49:15 AM |
Age 46, CA |
While agree with the principle of re-generation or spiritual transformation towards a more christlike live. As per previous post - I would caution taking church attendance as a sign of it.
The Pharisees did a very good job of that but negleted the weightier matters.
Christians must understand that each one of us has a role in accomplishing God's work on earth. A unique calling to further God's kingdom.
Churches must effectively support and encourgae their members to fulfill their calling. Setting external, arbitrary, unbiblical, and in some cases irrrelevant performance standards is not the way to accomplish this. And always leads to the impossible question how much do I have to do to be re-generate. Which misses the point of salvation entirely.
The whole approach should be about fullfilling God's purpose for you life, (including the process of santification) which ultimately will lead to a life well lived. This is done by sincerely listening to the prompting of the holy spirit in the beliver. Pastot should be able to encourgae and counsel these seekers. I have not met many pastors who encourage a deeper spiritual walk with the Lord which will lead to true transformation and not legalistic hypocricy.
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