Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/14/06 04:45:41 AM |
Age 49, MS |
Contrary to your statement, my "dissertation" is warranted because the theme from Mr. DeWaay and his supporters throughout this thread has been the assertion that God no longer interacts with His peoples in certain ways that HE SAYS HE DOES in the pages of His Book. On Mr. DeWaay's website (I never heard of HIM before, either, but he seems to condemn most everyone of Chritian note) I see a statement that he was taught in seminary not to believe anything that doesn't come from the pages of Scripture, and yet Scripture bears witness of these things that apparently fall outside his comfort zone because they say, "I operate in this manner." Well, it can't be both ways, so he has to explain away the Scripture that say, "I do it this way." So he says, "He no longer acts in this way...or that." He has bunches of folks who back him up, but when you ask for the Scriptural support for such statements, no one delivers. So we have Scripture that says "Be still, and know that I am God", and "Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him," and we are told to do that invites demonic influences. The Lord Jesus Himself tells us to go into our room and close the door for prayer, and sets the example by rising before sunrise and going to a solitary place to pray and we are told that is unacceptable practice, and I am not really sure as to the logic of it, but it's related to somebody's decision that Scripture didn't really mean it when it says everyone who wanted to speak to the Lord went out to the Tent of Meeting back in the days of Exodus. According to this fellow, my copy of the Scripture is wrong when it says "And EVERYONE who sought the Lord would go out to the tent of meeting." Now, I don't read Hebrew, but I have a whole lot of different translations, and they ALL say the same thing--EVERYONE, so I have to believe it's there. And true to His nature, if God put it there, it's there for a reason. I believe it's there because EVERYONE who believed Him did go to the tent of meeting. Perhaps they did have to speak to Him through the priests at that time. I don't know, because there were an awful lot of folks back in the days before Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice resulted in the rending of the veil who prayed fervent prayers that were heard and answered. Upon His death that symbolic rending of the veil that separated the Holy of Holies signified that we can now go directly to the Father without an intermediary, then our interaction with Him can be even MORE intimate today than the Tent was. This is all basic Christian stuff that I have gleaned from the pages of Scripture since childhood. And suddenly there's some fellow telling me that I can't approach the Lord in the quiet of my room, sit still before him and meditate on Him and His word, and wait on Him as Scripture instructs me to, because to do so is to invite the influence of demons? And if the Holy Spirit should come and influence and instruct and teach and guide me as Jesus promised He would...if I listen to Him, then I am opening myself up to an invasion of demons? Ah, you guys just make me sad.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/14/06 04:39:24 AM |
Age 49, MS |
Can you tell me, have you watched this video in it's entirety? Or are you simply relying on others for their assessment of its contents? I don't know a thing about what Foster has said elsewhere, but I went and bought this video because of this discussion. I watched it in its entirety, and mysticism or prayer to demonic spirits or in the presence of demonic spirits or inviting of demonic spirits or HOWEVER else you want to phrase it, is NOT what is addressed in this video by ANY of the speakers who appear. Neither is creating an intellectual or spiritual "vacuum" of the mind just waiting to be filled by demons. The prayer that is mentioned on this video is quiet, get-away-from-the-rat-race, go-to-your-room-and-close-the-door, spend-time-with-the-Lord prayer that is centered on Jesus and Scripture. There was no mention of mind clearing or humming or any of that other stuff that is being alleged is the subject of this DVD. I don't think I missed it because I was looking for the mysticism that was supposed to be there. I am saying that if you are charging that this IS the focus of this DVD, then you are misrepresenting its contents. What Mr. Foster has done elsewhere, I really can't say, because I don't have a clue who he is. I still don't know WHICH participant he was. However, he did not say anything contrary to Scripture on this viceo because nothing was said on this video that is unscriptural.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/14/06 12:59:38 AM |
Age 34, MO |
Sarah,
Please first understand that I am not entering into discussion with you for the purpose of winning some debate, but rather a desire for "iron to sharpen iron". I hope this is your heart as well. That said, let us reason together from Scripture.
It is my hope you will see there is no need for you nor anyone else to "conjecture" about something that God has already clearly spelled out in His Word. To even "entertain" the idea that "one can be covered by the blood without knowing that Jesus died or that His name was Jesus" is (with all due respect) not wise in light of Romans 10:9-10 which says, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved." If one doesn't know that Jesus died and rose again, how can he/she trust in Christ's finished work on the cross? Many people throughout history have "conjectured" about God's absolute truths. The Bible has this to say about such individuals: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of truth" (2 Tim. 3:7).
Lastly, God's word tells us "the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of truth" (2 Tim. 2:24-25). In your heart Sarah, do you belive your comment, "Did you really think that your pitiful argument would win out over Scripture" is an example of the meekness and gentleness Paul spoke of in his second epistle to Timothy? I've not arrived either my friend. We all at times fall short of speaking with gentleness and respect. I thank God for His mercy and patience with me.
In Christ's Love,
Jimmy
owcgallatin@hotmail.com
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Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 10:12:31 PM |
Age 34, MO |
MS,
I find it interesting that you didn't deal with Foster's quote that I provided. Why is this? Will you do it now please?
Specifically, where does the Bible admonish us to use a method of "prayer" that puts us in contact with demonic spirits?
Thanks MS.
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Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 10:11:24 PM |
Age 34, MO |
MS,
I find it interesting that you didn't deal with Foster's quote that I provided. Why is this? Will you do it now please?
Specifically, where does the Bible admonish us to use a method of "prayer" that puts us in contact with demonic spirits?
Thanks MS.
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Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 09:59:32 PM |
Age 34, MO |
MS,
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit leads us into truth. If I were arguing this point your dissertation would have been warranted.
I am certainly not operating out of "fear" but rather out of loving concern for those who may come face to face with the dangerous spirituality of Foster and other contemplatives.
We are commanded in Scripture (Jude 3 for example) to "earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the Saints". That "faith" does not include the Eastern Mysticism which is blatantly being taught by Foster and others. In conclusion, to warn others about this danger is not to operate out of "fear", but rather love for one's neighbor (Remember that commandment?).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 09:44:38 PM |
Age 53, NY |
Sarah T, Your first posted seemed to be defending this modern apostate mysticism of 'having an experience with God or iwth Jesus' that cannot be question by others and hates anyone comparing the 'experiencee's' experience with what Scripture reveals of God or of Jesus Christ. And I would propose to you that anyone genuinely filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth by the way, will not be comfortable in joining with false teachers or bowing before Catholic idols or praying with those saying the Rosary or bowing to Mecca, or engaging in practises developed by those into occult mysticism.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 06:57:13 PM |
Age 49, MS |
Hi, I just went back and read my original post that you are replying to. Do you realize that the Scriptures I quoted are those describing the means by which the Lord chose to birth his CHURCH? And do you also realize you are calling His chosen methods for doing so "Stockyard" methods. Wow! That takes my breath away. You are braver than me, for sure.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 06:52:08 PM |
Age 49, MS |
Hi, MN. I'm curious, if you put so much emphasis on what Scripture says, then why don't you BELIEVE it? Take another read and pay attention to what IT says, not to what somebody tells you it says. He gave you a brain to use under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit to discern the meaning of the Scriptures. If you yield to Him, you will not be led astray. I have made numerous posts on this thread, and I have backed every statement I've made up with Scripture that stated plainly what it meant. That Scripture, much of it words directly from the mouth and example of Jesus Christ Himself, says that what Mr. DeWaay says is wrong. So I guess you get to choose whom you will believe is the authoritative figure here. As for me and my house, we choose to believe the Lord. He is my highest and final authority. Best wishes to you in the quest for Christian truth in Christ Jesus.
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Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 06:17:23 PM |
Age 49, MS |
This present realm we live in IS a dangerous realm. Peter tells us that our adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. This battle with the devil IS a spiritual battle, it happens here in this very time and place, and we cannot effectively protect ourselves without employing spiritual weapons. These weapons are described in Ephesians 6:10-18: Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints." MO, it's NOT our choice whether to go there or not. We ARE there, and have been since the eating of the forbidden fruit. God did not send us there--we sent ourselves. But, He has NOT left us to fight it alone. He gave us tools and a Helper/Comforter/Instructor/Protector whom many folks effectively render impotent in their daily lives. He will give us as much help as we allow Him to. John 14:26: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." Then He tells us that we do not have to be crippled by fear: "Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid." Finally, just before His crucifixion, Jesus prayed a magnificent prayer for His people: "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world...I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me...I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost...I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one...I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word." (John 17:6-26 ESV) Listen again folks, to the prayer of Jesus: " I am praying for them." And He is still praying for us like that. His people do not have to be so fearful of negative spiritual influences that we have to deny the Holy Spirit His ordained place in our lives.
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Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 06:10:38 PM |
Age 49, MS |
I am not "desperately trying to defend" Beth Moore, only trying to correct erroneous ideas that condemn the practice of a clearly Biblical prayer life. I have seen people state unequivocably that God does not speak directly to his people, that praying in stillness before Him is unbiblical, and that we are to have no private place of prayer. Yet, when asked for Scriptural evidence in support of that position, no one has presented it. On the other hand, several people have presented substantial Scripture in support of: 1)seeking a place of solitude for personal prayer, 2)being still before Him for the purpose of that prayer, 3)permission to approach the Father personally in prayer, and 4)confirmation of the many ministries of the Holy Spirit in the ordering our lives. I very much value my copies of the Scripture for foundational information and for instruction. The pages of this very same Bible tell me that God still works actively through the voice of the Holy Spirit in combination with those pages of Scripture to communicate His will for our individual lives. Isn't it time to read and accept the Whole Thing and quite ignoring and discounting the parts we don't care for?
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Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 04:34:16 PM |
Age 46, MN |
Bob DeWaay is not disputing that God CAN give visions or dreams or speak through donkey's if He wishes. He is disputing that we are to "pursue" these methods to get His revelations. It is the equivalent of going to the stockyard to hear God. No, scriptures do not tell us to build a mystical tent of meeting in our minds - Beth Moore does. If she told us to get a new set of "Guidance Cards" so that we could get guidance from God, would this be OK. What if she sold fleeces? God can do anything He wishes - and He has told US how we are to pursue Him and it isn't in mystical tents.
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Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 02:11:42 PM |
Age 49, MS |
Well, lets look at some of the ways the book of Acts records that the Lord spoke to early Christians. Remember when Philip was sent to speak to the "Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court officail of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. Scripture says (Acts 8:29) "And the Spirit said to Philip, 'Go over and join this chariot,'". He was near the chariot in question at the time. Now the Scripture doesn't say anything about the volume with which this instruction was issued, but given the setting and the fact that nothing was said about a response to the voice from the people surrounding him, I think it likely that the voice that the Spirit used to speak to Philip was a pretty quiet, probably very personal one. Next, we see the thunderous confrontation between the Lord and Saul/Paul. Following that was the VISION though which the Lord spoke to Ananias. I can't imagine the response here if someone should say that the Lord had appeared to them in a vision. I might even be questioning of that. But yet, here proof from the Scriptures that this is a legitimate means by which the Lord has communicated to His servants. Next in chapter 10, we see again a vision, the angel of the Lord appearing to Cornelius. Later in that same chapter, Peter went up on the rooftop and fell into a trance. While in this trance he saw the vision of the sheet with all the animals and heard a voice that he apparently recognized as being the Lord's. While he was pondering the meaning of the vision, Scripture tells us that he heard the Spirit say to him that three men were looking for him and that he was to go and accompany them because He (the Spirit) had sent them. Again, no mention of the volume of the communication. Once again, however, I think it likely it was a pretty quiet communication because of the setting in which it occured--lots of people around and no mention of a reaction among those people to hearing a disembodied voice. Through the yielding of these men to the instruction received through voices that came to them in visions, and through their obeyance to the voice of the Holy Spirit, however it was spoken, the Gospel was presented to the family and friends of Cornelius--all Gentiles. The result was that they believed and were saved. Next, in Chapter 13, we find an assembly of believers worshiping the Lord and fasting. Within the context of that meeting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." Again, no mention of volume of the communication, but because of the context, it's obvious that it was either loud enough for them all to hear or the Holy Spirit spoke to each of them individually in unison. It's not probable that it was a thunderously booming voice as accompanied Paul's conversion, though. I could go on, but space here is limited. But the fellow who wrote this discussion obviously didn't consider the book of Acts when he did his research. By saying that the Lord doesn't speak in these ways he discounts a largely significant part of the book of Acts, which records the birth of Christ's church. Again I ask that if anyone has SCRIPTURAL evidence that He ceased to speak to us by these means at whatever point in history, please post those references here. Because I can't find them and I have looked. Please don't give intellectual arguments because those are the products of human reasoning and are frequently erroneous. I personally do not think He has quit speaking to those who believe Him to be who He says He is. I think that what HAS changed since the days of the Acts is THE BELIEVER'S level of faith, THE BELIEVER'S commitment to Him, THE BELIEVER'S willingness to be completely yielded to Him without regard to the influence of the world and without worrying about what the secular world might think. I also think we like to be the ones in control of our lives and our actions, and we don't like yielding that control to anyone, not even (and perhaps most especially) to the Lord. The modern church discounts a great deal of New Testament Scripture as being something that God "no longer does". Thus, we miss out on blessing and experiencing His immense power in our lives. 'Tis a shame.
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Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 01:17:59 PM |
Age 53, KY |
Thanks, Imonk. Great article.
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Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 01:06:59 PM |
Age 34, MO |
I can't help but conclude that many commenters here are simply unaware of some facts. In no way am I suggesting lack of discernment, but rather lack of information that is essential to clearly understanding the problem with Ms. Moore's endorsement of the "Be Still" DVD.
FIRST: Ms. Moore to date does indeed endorse the contemplative spirituality as communicated by herself and the other participants (i.e. Richard Foster) in the "BE Still" DVD. Should anyone doubt this, please read her ministries' most recent statement which can be found at http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/bethmoorethumbsup.htm
SECOND: Now that we know, by her own admission, that Ms. Moore endorses the contemplative spirituality of Foster for example, let's call him to the witness stand to tell us about this spirituality Ms. Moore thinks is ok.:
Foster: "I also want to give a word of precaution. In the silent contemplation of God we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm, and there is such a thing as a supernatural guidance,". "While the Bible does not give us a lot of information on that, there are various orders of spiritual beings, and some of them are definitely not in cooperation with God and his way! But for now I want to encourage you to learn and practice prayers of protection." ("Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home" by Richard Foster)
Now read Brian Flynn's ("Running Against the Wind") biblical responce to Foster's misguided spirituality: "Then why do it, Mr. Foster? Why would God put me in a position to fend for myself in this unknown spiritual realm surrounded by spiritual beings that are not in cooperation with God and his way? He would not."
To the commenters who are desparately trying to defend Ms. Moore's endorsement of the "Be Still" DVD: Do you see the problem now? Please keep in mind that this DVD is being widely circulated within Christendom, and many Christians who love Beth Moore, could likely embrace the dangerous spirituality of Foster thanks in part to her endorsement. What say you?
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Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 12:25:29 PM |
Age 27, TX |
While it was well written and entertaining, it lacked one very big element- Biblical proof that God does not talk to us.
I found his illustration of the angel telling one to go to Africa particularly interesting because God HAS called my husband and I to Africa AND YET most people insist God hasn't. The reasons? You can minister to people from other countries right here in Houston and because it is dangerous in Africa. I believed God was calling me to Kenya when I was in Bible College and I was told I was mistaken. Someone else came along and offered me a job in Kenya. A few months later someone else did the same. The following year Wycliffe Bible Translators gave us a series of tests to determine if you have a gift in languages and then begged me to join with them, saying that Swahili (the main language in Kenya) came very easily to me. Still, I resisted, I hesitated, I disobeyed. God was calling me, others were confirming it, and yet because my family insisted that I WAS NOT called to Africa, I did not go.
I have felt much regret over not going, and now again I have been asked to go to Kenya. God placed us in a church that has fourteen churches in Kenya, including an orpahanage which I am raising funds for. And my husband, who warned me before we married that he would NEVER be a missionary, pastor, elder sunday school teacher or have any leadership role in the church whatsoever now cannot wait to get to Kenya! He believes he is called to be a pastor, and a missionary as well. Now, I knew him way back when and I can say that this must be God changing his heart. In fact, he hates planes. He gets very ill and is in alot of pain but he wants to endure that for an 18 hour plane trip. Why? Because he hears God's voice and walks in His paths.
Oh, and by the way I have seen angels and two angels spoke to my family and rescued us from a mountain (we would have died up there if they hadn't.) Yet, there were no great messages from God. They just told us that we would be safe, that God would take care of us. While that message was very welcomed at that moment, it wasn't a great earth shattering revelation.
Sarah T
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 07:47:45 AM |
Age 27, TX |
As I had stated, that part is conjecture. It's ok to do a little, isn't it, as long as you say that's what you're doing?
Primarily, I base that on the Scriptures that talk about us being dead in sin and the Holy Spirit makes us alive and draws us to Him. When the Holy Spirit comes to you, it's not neccesarily while you are being witnessed to or reading the Bible. In fact, although my grandfather was an ordained minister my mom did not grow up in church, did not have a Bible, and was never witnessed to. She heard the Lord drawing her to him, though, and she committed her life to Him alone in her room. The same thing hapened to my dad, who was not allowed to read the Bible or go to church. It was later that they got a Bible and began attending church.
So, I apply the same idea to those in areas that are yet unreached by missionaries (and there are those.) God can come to them and teach them His Word (I'm not meaning physically appearing to them, although I have heard of angels going and ministering to unreached people groups so there is somewhat of a possibility there, I suppose.)
My whole point in bringing this part up is to pose the question "If God does not speak to us EXCEPT throught the Bible, then what about all those in unreached areas? Does God care so little for them that He would not reach out to them Himself since no one else has? How has God handled that situation?" Of course, we don't know exactly what's going on there except through stories that we hear from missionaries going into those places, but then I'm told we can't rely on experiences and even should IGNORE experiences....
Sarah T
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Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 07:37:23 AM |
Age 48, FL |
We must remember that during the Old Testament days, because Jesus was not born, they only knew to go to God. The verse states "Anyone inquiring of the lord would go to the tent of meeting outside the camp" Anyone means anyone! But, today we must remember we can go to (once we accept his son) God directly because God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. When you speak to God you are speaking to his son and his holy spirit. You only have to believe that Jesus died for us and it is in that belief that you can now speak to God, Jesus, and His Holy Spirit anytime you wish! I do not see any problem with going to the God as long as you accept his son as atonement for your sins. Once you accept Jesus you get the whole package!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 07:26:07 AM |
Age 27, TX |
I'm wondering, what is it about my post that is confusing? Please let me know and I will try to clarify. I do not believe my posts were dupicitous in nature (sorry if that's mispelled, I'm an atrocious speller.)
Thank you,
Sarah
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
| Posted On: 06/13/06 07:18:06 AM |
Age 27, T |
In this discussion,I have stood firmly and will continue to do so on the principle that if it is the leading and direction of the Holy Spirit it will always line up with the Scriptures. He does not contradict Himself and is the same eternally, so the two would go hand in hand.
So often I have heard that the Holy Spirit is only there to save, but then after that He has no other job to do. While salvation is extremely important, there is more to be done. The Holy Spirit equips us and strengthens us and encourages us and guides us.
Yes, there are plenty of cults that begin by someone believing that God is speaking to them. On the same note, there are plenty of cults started who believe that Jesus is our Saviour, does that mean that He isn't? No,certainly not. The difference is, did their 'word' line up with what we already know for sure to be the Word of God? Do their actions line up? Chances are, no, they don't. Hearing the voice of God is not what makes them a cult, it's many other things too.
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