Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/17/06 04:05:02 PM |
Age 69, TX |
The young 25 year old man's reply to the article shows many signs of todays public school teachings of not to be harsh or critical or judgemental,etc. We should try to show these people their errors in a gentle way,true,at least at first. Know that all cults or deceivers will ALWAYS include some truths, but in a very deceptive way.They blend truth and lies in such a way as to deceive people till they fall into the trap of their false doctrine,carefully hiding their true purpose untill they are to well indoctrinated to see the truth. The Nazi's and Communists did and now the Muslims and the Emergents do the same. Anything to deceive the elect. It is known as Brain Washing, and very effective it is too. When people claim the name of Christ and do not set under the solid teaching of God's word on the Blood,repentance,forgivness etc.,you receive this politically correct weak reply.The Word says,"My people perish for lack of knowledge".The replys have been great by people of solid teaching and in the middle stands a babe who has yet to come to the full knowledge of our Lord. Being my age and having attended several schools on brain washing as a pilot in the USAF it is painfuuly obvious that this young man is woefully lacking in sound doctrine and an easy prey to the Emergent nonsense.Also, I am starting to lose patience with all these followers of false prophets and no longer gently try to convince them for very long before I just tell them the truth and DANGER of their ways, for the time is too short to play mommy and daddy to a young adult.
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Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/13/06 08:13:30 AM |
Age 54, TN |
I have watched this trend to dismiss truth for several decades now. I have debated on several occasions with teachers in a Christian college who began to declare that all truth is God's truth. That meant that the truth of Freud and his ilk was on the same level as Paul's letters. Mathmatical and science was considered as truth equal to the Bible.My arument is always that we must see a difference between workable facts such as the simple 2 plus 2 equals 4, and the absoulte truth of God's Word.
Yes, there is discoverable truth concerning such things as how the blood flows through our veins, and other medical facts. But all of man's "discoveried truth" is subject to new technics and an evolving understanding that results from each new discovery. Maybe that's why new college text books are printed each year?
As truth is presented in Scripture, it is done so by establishing a set of standards.
Jesus said He was the truth.
He said that God's Word is truth.
And He called the Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth.
All three standards are absolute, and anything that we would dare call truth must be compared to them, not some constantly evolving discoveries.
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Re: Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/12/06 12:36:13 AM |
Age 42, NC |
So was Jesus Christ a moderate? Did He look for the common ground and compromise His message so as not to offend His fellow Jews? Did Elijah look for the good and acceptable teaching of the prophets of Baal? How about Jeremiah, did he compromise the message he was given from God to appease the leaders of Judah? I do not speak from an elite position, or from the view I am the only one who knows truth. My stance is to be very careful of what and who we listen to. Be careful of saying, "yes, I see that that sounds good and seems to be right..." when the rest of the message and practices are poisoned with error and half-truth. That is when the enemy slithers up to you and says, "see, we have common ground. We both want the same thing, we are brothers, we are just alike, just coming at the problem from different angles. We can put aside our differences and be unified. Besides all doctrine does is divide us and we should be as one." Echos from the garden... "yea, hath God said?"
How then would we counsel Jesus when He called the religious rulers, "scribes, Pharasees, hypocrites?" How would we advise Him to handle the money changers in the Temple? Our problem in the church (the eternal body of believers) is there is too much Cool Hand Luke, "What we got here is failure to communicate" and not enough biblical, Holy Spirit led, "Thus saith the LORD."
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Re: Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/11/06 11:58:19 PM |
Age 42, NC |
"Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures" for in John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father Father, but by me.'" Notice the definite article Jesus Christ used in describing Himself. I am THE way. I am THE truth. I am THE life. He did not say "a" way, "a" truth, and "a" life. He did not say "some" way, "some" truth, and "some" life. No, Jesus said THE way, THE truth and THE life. By making this declaration Jesus says I AM Truth, in me is truth and all truth is in me. IF Jesus Christ is not true and is not THE Truth then He is not God, for God cannot lie. If Jesus Christ is a liar then the Gospel is a lie and our faith is in vain. I will go even further, if there is no absolute, objective truth then there is no God, and that is the conclusion of your argument.
I know that my redeemer liveth and that He IS and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. Jesus Christ is God the Son and whether you believe it or not Jesus Christ is T-H-E TRUTH. Liar, lunitic or God the Son, He has to be one of these three. If He is a liar then, as I have said, the Bible and the Gospel are for naught. (Jesus is not a liar!) If he is a lunitic then again the Gospel is built on a lie and our faith and the Bible are false. "Let God be true and every man a liar." (Which, in fact, we are all liars; born with the sin nature, in need of a redeemer to pay our sin debt and make us free.) If He is neither a liar nor a lunitic then He must be who He claims to be, the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He is the Word who in the beginning was with God and who was God. He is the Word made flesh who came and lived among us, who lived a sin-less, perfect life, who took our punishment and died on the cross for our sin, was buried and rose the third day according to scripture, so that we who believe on Him might have eternal life. That is TRUTH and to deny it is to reject the gift of salvation and spit in the very face of God. To deny that Jesus Christ is truth is to create a god in your own sin-tainted image. (See Exodus 20:3&4) May the God of all Truth open your eyes.
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Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/09/06 12:38:51 PM |
Age 56, AR |
Jan Markell is having on her show today, a speaker on the EMC. I can't remember who it is, but want to hear it. It's actually talking about "naming names". There has been much debate on this website about that. I hope the writer of this article does not mind that I refer to her show on this page. Her website is www.olivetreeviews.org. If I am mistaken about the day click on the show by date at the bottom. I listen to her program often. It's great. She has some really informed speakers, on the issues of the day.
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Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/09/06 11:58:23 AM |
Age 56, AR |
God's word isn't true because I believe, I believe because it's true.
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Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/08/06 11:23:17 AM |
Age 25, TN |
No matter what you or the emergent church is saying, this article comes off as angry, cutting, and defensive. I am by no means a proponent of the emergent church, but I have extensively read the writing coming out of the emergent camp. To their credit, even when they are disagreeing with your views, they often do so in much more civilized way (maybe I have only been privy to the articles/books that treat your view respectfully though). I think that this article (as do most against the emergent church) is more divisive than helpful, and serves (for myself at least) to almost push me in the direction of those who are less angry and defensive.
I feel like this article reminded me of something that I read in McLarens book "A Generous Orthodoxy". Before judgments are made and I am dismissed for quoting one of the people you are so vehemently discrediting, I would like to go on record as saying that I do not agree with everything promoted in this book; however, I do think that there are some parts that are, at the very least, worth everyones consideration. In a chapter talking about the liberal vs. conservative debate that has been raging in these last decades, he writes, What did liberals and conservatives do in the face of these serious problems? Among other things, they did something very human: they compared their own best to their counterparts worst. They focused on their counterparts weaknesses and failures and didnt think much about their ownname calling can become a pretty engaging activity for a pretty long time, as any playground or political campaign can demonstrate. A lot of energy was (and still is) spent on name-calling, self-congratulating, and so on. He then goes on to talk about different strengths and weaknesses of BOTH sides.
I think we can all learn a small lesson from the above-quoted excerpt. Yes, we are called to judge a tree by its fruit, and yes, we should call things as they arein love. Go ahead, denounce the parts of the emergent church and its proponents on the levels that they rightfully deserve to be called out on...but please do it in love (as is another Biblical mandate) if you hope to be taken seriously yourselves.
I would also advise everyone from both sides of this argument to try to look for strengths in the other side (they ARE there) as well as the weaknesses inherent in your own stance (they are there too).
At the end of the day, (though you will probably disagree with the following statement), we are all striving towards the same end. We would all be a lot more effective for the kingdom of God if we would at least attempt to strive for unity above (or in spite of ) our differences.
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Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/08/06 11:19:34 AM |
Age 42, NC |
Brother Ken, Thank you for being there on the front lines to raise the alarm against this assault on Jesus Christ. Emergents will cry foul and say they are not attacking Jesus Christ but in very fact, they are. They attack the Word of God, "and the Word was with God and the Word was God," and either by design or by ignorance (not knowing the Scripture) they echo the question from the garden... "yea, hath God said?" From the preponderance of negative feedback I would say that to try and "reason" with them is to cast pearls before swine. Only the Holy Spirit can draw them to repentance and convict them. All we can do is pray the Lord will open their blinded eyes, and awake the sleeping "Church" to the battle. Keep your lips to the trumpet, sound the call to battle. Hold the Fort, stand with Sword and trowel. Don
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Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/08/06 08:52:03 AM |
Age 25, TN |
When Jesus says, "I am truth", he is hardly declaring an absolute objective truth that we can be certain of. If you interpret Jesus as an objective truth, then you are turning Jesus into an object that you can manipulate (which is all too common in the church). If Jesus is the subjective truth, then we can still see that Jesus is the way we should live, but we then see him as a person who we cannot completely understand. This is why we need faith. Although it's uncomfortable sometimes not to be 100% certain of what I "know" to be true, it leaves me open to be changed by Jesus, rather than manipulating Jesus to my own ends. And yes, it is still possible to be a martyr without being 100% certain of what you believe in, contrary to what the writers on this website seem to think.
Peace,
Justin
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Re: Is Emergent Church Leader Tony Jones Telling The Truth?
| Posted On: 06/08/06 08:37:49 AM |
Age 29, GA |
What amazes me regarding Jone's cavalier way of writing off the "true truth" phrase when he hears it is that this particular phrase comes from none other than Francis Schaeffer. Does Jones know this? It is hard for me to imagine anyone claiming to be a Christian teacher so lightly casting aside a theological/apologetic giant of the 20th century. As far as I'm concerned, there were two giants in apologetics during the twentieth century who pled for Christians to engage culture (something postmoderns supposedly support) with the gospel: C.S. Lewis (with some attending heresies like inclusivism) and Francis Schaeffer. I think the way Schaeffer simultaneously handled a commitment to truth and a commitment to engage culture was exemplary. This is a major faux pas on Jones' part.
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