Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/15/06 07:53:10 PM |
Age 56, AR |
To the other 56 AR. I use those verses you sighted when I am trying to remind myself that I need to submit to the authority God has put over me.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/08/06 01:36:30 PM |
Age 58, GA |
Well, I am not sure what you are saying. I didn't mention revenge only justice. This is about justice. An eye for an eye princple is still a valid principle in criminal justice. I'm not really sure what you are saying when you say try love instead of revenge. When someone murders my wife or kids, what am I supposed to do? Yes, I must forgive them, but that does not relieve them from the penalty of the state. These are two separate issues. Civil forgiveness does not automatically flow from divine forgiveness. Again, God established our system of justice so I think He knows best even if you don't.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/08/06 07:31:18 AM |
Age 58, GA |
I always appreciate your feedback. Let me respond to your statements. First, and again, Jesus was not a judge. No one looked at Him as a human judge administering the legal code. In other words He had no authority in the matter and could only render an opinion. The religious leaders were trying to trick Him. Jesus merely upheld the law. He was born and lived "under the law". You are right though. We are ALL sinners, but Jesus was not saying don't ever judge. He was saying don't judge unrighteously. In fact, we are told in John 7:24 and I Cor. 5:12 to judge in certain situations. Some types of judgments are evil but others are required. For example we are to judge those in the Church and administer discipline when appropriate. How can we do that if we don't judge them for some act or attitude?
In this passage Jesus does not negate the death penalty. In Mark 7:8-11, he upholds it. When before authorities He never said the death penalty wasn't appropriate. The thieves on the cross said they got their just punishement. Jesus didn't argue.
Finally, as to righteous wars. I can only point to the many times God lead Israel into war and told His people to kill every man, woman and child. Was God unjust?
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Re: Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/08/06 05:49:44 AM |
Age 79, OH |
Evidentially you are more Hebrew than Christian. The Habiru always found ways to give God credit for their killing. You might try reading the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. Try love instead of revenge. "Revenge is mine says that Lord." God creates life and only God has the right to take a life. Stop trying to blame the killing on God as the Habiru does.
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Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/07/06 03:55:31 PM |
Age 56, AR |
These are the verses I reference to this issue.
Romans 13:1-6 - [Verse 1 in Original Greek]
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained F53 of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
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Re: Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/07/06 10:36:59 AM |
Age 34, DC |
re"... as for the lady taken in adultery, Jesus was not a judge, in the human sense, but he merely followed the law. The law says you must have 2 or 3 witnesses for a capital crime. Jesus merely let the woman go on "legal" grounds. This was not an abolishment of the death penalty."
Do you really believe the bible just tells a story here about Jesus acting like a judge, with no additional reason. Is this part just about describing Jesus acting according to the law? Ups we are missing another witness so we have to let the woman go? Come on give me a break, the reason stories ended up in the bible is that they should teach us about believes and how we act. and this story shows us that we are all sinners, that it is not upon us to judge but upon God. While Jesus might not have said word by word that he is against the death penalty, he did preached love of God's creation, the importance of forgiveness and acceptance, and the acceptance that we are all sinners.
Please let me know if you have any disagreements with this interpretation of the key messages of Jesus. Because if you don't then I just can't understand how you can still say that the death penalty fits into this world view.
and please do stop talking about godly wars, there are none.
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Re: Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 09:00:56 PM |
Age 56, AR |
In the Old Testament people were put to death for unusual things. I was going to say crimes but if those things were happening today they wouldn't be considered a crime, or the penalty as severe. It's because we've turned away from God's teachings. Of course, those precepts and laws are not for today and the Old Testament is not for today. I heard an old preacher say, "the Old Testament is not written to me, but it is written for me". The harmony and flow of the word teaches the death penalty is proper and right in specific circumstances. We have made laws that aren't proper or right in this country. We have become like the Pharisees and made so many laws we can't keep up with them. I believe in the death penalty. If we're supposed to purge out from among us those who practice immoral acts, why would we suppose God would want us to tolerate a murderer. Today there are several different classes of murder. It depends on how the person was murdered, and what the perp's intentions were. In the OT it cut and dried. Usually Americans hear about a crime, and depending on who the crime was committed against and what the crime was, they're all for putting someone to death. I'm not talking about murdering someone either. I hear people say all the time, say when a child is raped or killed, that the perp needs to be hung unside down and skinned alive, etc. You get the picture. Some Americans say they don't believe in the death penalty but let something happen to a child and there's a pretty quick change of mind.
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Re: Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 08:56:02 PM |
Age 39, V |
You say that if the Biblical law pertaining to children being disobeident to parents were to be applied there would be no people left. Not so. Those who oppose Theonomy do so out of ignorance. Only in extreme cases would disobedient children be put to death under this law. We are not talking about a totalitarian State here. In reality, few parents would ever bring their children before a court to request the death penality.
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Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 04:30:44 PM |
Age 58, GA |
Thanks for responding. There are books written on this but a few passages are:
Genesis 9 when God gave man authority to use the death penalty.
Exodus 21:12-17.
Acts 25:11. Paul, after the resurrection before Festus states that if he has done anything worthy of death, he would not refuse to die.
And, the final judgment is the final death penalty. God has not changed his mind.
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Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 04:21:13 PM |
Age 58, GA |
Thanks for your feedback. I know you are young and I appreciate your zeal. But, I don't think you got my point. I was not aligning myself with the mafia. I was merely pointing out that even fallen, evil men know that somethings deserve death. There is a sense of justice in all of us. We all try to atone for our sins even though Jesus paid it all. Keep up the study. The dialogue is good.
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Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 04:12:02 PM |
Age 58, GA |
Thank you for responding to my article. A couple of things. First, the word "kill" in the Scripture you quote is really "murder". The King James doesn't bring this out. Murder is the unlawful taking of a life. The death penalty as laid out in Scripture is a lawful taking of life as is self defense and Godly wars.
As for the lady taken in adultery, Jesus was not a judge, in the human sense, but he merely followed the law. The law says you must have 2 or 3 witnesses for a capital crime. Jesus merely let the woman go on "legal" grounds. This was not an abolishment of the death penalty.
I make my point again. If you can show when and where God abolished the death penalty, please make your case. Thanks.
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Re: Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 01:14:58 PM |
Age 38, TX |
Hello,
I agree that capital punishment needs to be used more often. Rapists and murderers need to be eradicated from society. However, someone from my church feels that adulterers, thieves and many others should be put to death. He used the scripture that says that any child that curses their parents shall be surely put to death. I don't feel that is the meaning of that scripture simply because every child known to man has at some point has spoken (or thought) badly to their parents, therefor there would be anyone left in the world if that scripture were taken litrally and used by all. My children would have been killed long ago. I interpret that verse as meaning that any child who curses their parents shall be put to death because he/she will surely go to hell unless they accept Jesus into their lives and repents. Please feel free to give me your opinion if you disagree.
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Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 11:58:23 AM |
Age 56, AR |
I can't see the judge telling a murderer "go and sin no more". I would recommend going back and reading all those verses in the context in which they were written. Read about 1 or 2 chapters previous to those chapters the verses are in. Then see if you think the same way. I think you are trying to see the flow and harmony of the scriptures, but sometimes, as an elder bible teacher told me, we become dogmatic about certain issues.
Thanks,
Brenda
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Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 10:18:25 AM |
Age 19, VA |
Why in the world would anyone use such a horrific group as the maffia to justify your beliefs? That's ridiculous, and I'm embarassed that a Christian would ally himself with them like that in even a small way. Also, calling mob murders "the death penalty" is very strange, since those are criminal actions, not a penalty awarded in a trial by jury. I don't believe in the death penalty and think all the arguements for it are unreasonable, but Barker might make himself more credible by pointing to a legitimate modern organization that uses it effectively, rather than citing the maffia.
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Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 07:43:37 AM |
Age 34, DC |
Dear Mr. Barker,
Well for once there is a commandment that says "You should not kill". If God wanted us to kill people then I think he would have amended this commandment.
you might also consider Matthew 5:38-42: "But what I tell you is this: Do not set yourself against the man who wrongs you. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn and offer him your left." But then you might ignore it just the way you ignored your caller who quoted "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." -- which makes absolute sense in this debate since it speaks of forgiveness in the moment of murder. Jesus is being murdered and he forgives those who do it. Just as Jesus's story about the cheek it stresses the new testament's message of forgiveness in contrast to revenge.
Another piece of the bible: "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery [a capital crime]Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, Let whosoever is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before himAnd Jesus saidgo, and do not sin again. John 8:3-11"
The new testament includes two key messages which you seem not to understand, one is about forgiveness and the second is about those that claim to think they know exactly what God means. And we humans are not like God, we do NOT know what he thinks. So only if we can say we are without any sin (which none of us can), which means we are like God then we can judge others.
Also, as a Christian I find your comparison to the Mob highly offensive, and actually an argument just why there shouldn't be a death penalty. The argument should not be if the Mob does it we should do it, but if the Mob does we might not want to do it, because we have higher standards than they have.
Sincerely
Carsten Schmidt
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Re: Even the Mob Believes in the Death Penalty
| Posted On: 06/06/06 06:24:26 AM |
Age 58, MS |
Sir,
I agree with the death penalty as you do but I many times have problems supporting it biblically. You mentioned many verses in both the Old and New Testaments to support the death penalty. Would you please send to me the verses you quote so that I might use them in my "arguments" for the death penalty.
Gratefully,
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