Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/09/06 08:26:13 AM |
Age 57, VA |
Dear TX 43, we do not agree!!! You can hope it or "want" it or believe that if we did you would have "the best for yourself," but the fact remains, as someone I DO AGREE WITH has said, "Saint of God, be careful of the self-love message which comes in so many flavors to feed the carnal/sinful nature in us. At the root of this message is always "What's in it for ME?" and the betterment of self - apart from God and His clear Biblical revelation to us. Scripture is even twisted, taken out of context, and used to teach this. Self-love undergirds all psychology whether it claims to be "Christian" or not. Self-love is the root of the message of the false prophets of this late hour. Self-love is the core of the "favor of God" message taught by so many of the TV preachers who call God's people to worship at the altar of self." (Todd Tomasella) I will end with that and with the one I do agree. Sincerely, Karen
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/08/06 09:29:31 AM |
Age 43, TX |
Again, I think we can agree even using the example you give. You see, I always want the best for myself, and I believe that the Bible is a guide for people to get the best. (Note, not "get what they want." That is a distortion.) If we are witnessing to others and find that we are being mistreated by them, the Bible has a clear message for us --"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matt. 5:11-12) Enduring the mistreatment results in a great reward in heaven. When we run away, we miss the blessing. We might gain a temporary respite from the mistreatment, but we have failed our Master and denied our faith that He can and will deliver us in our struggles. In running away, we take the world's counterfit reward but miss God's greater blessing. I still want the best.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/07/06 12:22:19 PM |
Age 57, VA |
P.s.There is nothing wrong with making God's grace known others, but not to the point of distorting other principles in Scripture. We have to become like soldiers, we have to learn to buffet our bodies, we have to put off the old man and put on the new man. We have to learn to be obedient. We can't just glory in His part and not emphasise our part. I have to learn to live a crucified life. Death to self. You say you always want the best for yourself. I don't want to want the best for myself. I see others take the best for themselves. I am convicted when I take the best for myself. I have to say, there are times when my husband and I feel very abused, taken advantage of, or even disliked by those we pour our lives out to. (He is a bi-vocational preaher) If I was seeking the best for myself or wanted the best for myself I would run from them the way they sometimes do from us when they don't like the truth. They get mad and choose for themselves what they think is the best, and we stay and put up with them because we have decided the best is yet to come. Not on this earth. Our reward is in heaven. I take what he gives me. Don't get me wrong, we love them. It is just that when they see our human side or something they don't like, they book. We can't book because we are called to deny our flesh. We stay because we are called to suffer long with them. If I let my flesh have its way, I'd book too. But I have to love God and them. Not myself! I was in the faith,health and wealth Gospel and when I was, I EXPECTED THE BEST for myself. I found out there was a skewed perspective in that movement. No one wanted or was willing to settle for less, no one wanted or was willing to suffer. If they did, it had to be the devil. I am having to pay big bucks right now to an accountant to help me get our business on Quickbooks and my flesh does not like it. My Health and Wealth Gospel friend's (I pray for her to see the light) answer to me is "I am praying God will restore to you what the devil steals from you!" She sees a bill to an Accountant as the devil stealing from me! How preposterous and how self-centered. How self protective and self-loving. Me, me, me! I have to learn to lose my life to gain life. The Gospel message is Die, die, die to self, live unto God. I don't expect the best in this life. I want the best for others. If I want the best for myself that is my pride sticking it's ugly head up. We get what is best for us by serving God first and others second. We don't have to worry ourselves over it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/07/06 12:21:38 PM |
Age 44, TX |
Yes, the joy of the LORD is our strength, yet joy is a fruit of abiding in Christ and dying to the self-life - and not elevating or learning to love it. Joy comes when we lay down our lives. Divine joy comes to those who have and are dying to self and esteeming and loving self and just following Jesus because He is everything and not us. ;)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/07/06 10:40:54 AM |
Age 43, TX |
That was a very moving post. If I understand it correctly, I think we truly agree but express our views differently. I am glad you have found in God the peace and joy you have wanted. I hope that others who see their need will benefit from your testimony and find their needs met and overwhelmed by the love of God. Thank you for your post and for your patience with me in our discussion.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/07/06 07:16:01 AM |
Age 57, VA |
Again without meaning to be rude, you seem to do somthing that I do not do. I do not spend much time looking to the Giver to bless me, I look to bless others and as I do, the Giver will take care of me. It is a difference in emphasis that we have. I do not take much time thinking about how God can bless me. He just does it. My life is more focused on asking Him to help me be a blessing to others. I am not just saying this. I ask him to meet my needs and to give me enough, enough resources, enough strength, enough love, enough wisdom, enough knowledge, enough patience, enough self-control, to be able to help others. I want my life to count. I want to be able to stand before Him and have him say, look around you , Karen, see them, great is your reward! No, I am no Billy Grahm, but I pray my life will affect many and help many into God's Kingdom. I am not focused at all on loving myself. It is God's job to love me!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/06/06 10:47:59 PM |
Age 43, TX |
You are reading too much into my posts. Joy is an essential part of a Christian life (Jesus said that he brought abundant joy; we are commanded to "rejoice in the Lord always") so I think that it would be a severe distortion of our Lord's teaching to diminish it. However, I have not talked about happiness at all. Perhaps you think that I am confusing 'receiving the best' with 'expecting happiness.' I do not mix these up. Still, you are right that sometimes blessings comes with weeping (Blessed are those who weep for they will be comforted). In addition, you are right in one thing about me. I always want the best for me, though I admit that I don't always get it. Sin still intrudes at times to substitute a counterfit and interferes with my relationship with God. But by the grace of God, His will for me will triumph and He will not forsake me. Therefore, by faith, I will more fully realize the immeasurable blessings that God in His love pours over me every day. In my own self-interest, I will accept them; and in my love for God and for others, I will make God's grace known to others. Is there something wrong with this?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/06/06 08:59:32 PM |
Age 57, VA |
I really don't mean to be rude. I am sorry. I just know that if I even think that I need to love myself, myself will take a front row seat. Self feeds more of self. It is only in dyng to self and doing for others that I find Joy. I got saved in 1978 and had been diagnosed years before with acute depression. I did pills, smoked, drank etc. I was very miserable inside. All I could think about was myself. I was self-centered and self-pitying. I thought the world owed me to be happy, but how to obtain it, I could not figure. It was not until I got saved and I was talking to a woman that I began to learn about gaining through losing. I told her that all I wanted was to find happiness. She told me, "Karen, anything that you want in life, if you go after it, it will escape you. If you want happiness, you can not seek happiness and find it. If you want joy, you cannot seek joy and find it. If you want a Godly mate, you cannot seek a mate and find a Godly one. The only way you can get the things you desire in life, is to Seek God first. If you will seek Him first, He will give you what you want." I remembered that and it has been the focus of my life. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness and all these things will be added unto you." I soon found out that if I took my eyes off of myself and what I wanted and reached out to others to meet their needs, I was filled with joy! I found out that when I am struggling, I need to put my eyes on God and take them off of myself, and joy will come. The joy of THE LORD is my strength, not the joy of pleasing Karen. If I give Karen too much attention, she demands her own way, she gets critical, she feels sorry for herself,or she might even "parade" her own gifts. She gets bigger than life. No, I havn't needed to focus on loving Karen these 28 years. I rather focus on loving God and others. I have also learned that my greatest spritual growth comes when I feel like I am losing. During the hardest most difficult times, when I feel like no one understands or no one cares or I am losing my reputation or losing something in the natural, a job, a friend, perhaps a baby, it is in those times that I am gaining the most spiritually. I gain through losing! We are conformed into Christ's image through suffering. Not a popular topic. But the truth. If I strive to love myself, myself will take the helm because that is what self does. It wars against the Spirit. In the end "they will be lovers of self rather than lovers than God." I can't teach about loving self when the scripture says that. I can not tell people whose lives are a shambles that they need to love themselves. I tell them that they need to come to know the length, the debth, the breadth of the Love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. They need to take their eyes off of themselves and put them on God and others. They need to learn they are complete in Jesus. All that they need is In HIM. Karen
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Re: Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/06/06 03:33:21 PM |
Age 44, TX |
Brother you seem to have joy and hapiness as an end in itself and the goal of your faith. There is a time to weep and a time to rejoice and we are to rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn (Eccl. 3; Rom. 12).
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Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/06/06 11:04:24 AM |
Age 43, TX |
After responding to the part of your post that related to the topic at hand, I had to think for a moment about your criticisms about me. I think you must be misreading my posts terribly. I have never denied the need to die to self and submit completely to God. If you can find a place where I have, please point it out. With regard to being seeker friendly, I see no reason that this should be a problem if one is true to the Bible. Jesus was extremely seeker friendly -- so much so that he was accused of being too friendly with them. What concerns me most, however, is your statement about having agape love for yourself being almost blasphemous. I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. We want what's best for God (agape love for God). We want what's best for others (agape love for others). We want what's best for ourselves (agape love for ourselves). When it comes to the point that these desires come in to conflict (i.e. I want the last piece of chicken but someone else wants it, too), then I yield to others (that is, do to them as I would have them do to me; I esteem them above myself; I love (agape) them as I love (agape) myself). In doing this, I know that I am not being deprived because I know that I cannot outgive God. I actually come out ahead when I follow God's commands. I don't know how you could find this blasphemous! As for my supposed desire to "tickle ears," I think you judge me rashly. I'm am about as far from a universalist as you can imagine. The congregations I attend and have attended are about as far from emergent churches as exist on this earth. As for my understanding of Biblical teaching, it in no way produces pride or self-satisfaction. Because of these accusations, I must wonder if you have understood anything I have written. Please take some time and read what I have written carefully. If you have specific questions about my statements or see a possible difference in our underlying assumptions, feel free to point them out. I believe we both profess to believe that the Bible is the sole, authoritative, unerring word of God. We seem to have a different way of expressing our beliefs, however. Let's not let inaccurate assumptions cause divisions among us.
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Re: Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/06/06 09:23:02 AM |
Age 43, TX |
Well, good. I'm glad to see that you love yourself. It seems that now agree that you are seeking what is best for yourself and finding it in God. That has been my point all along. If one is not allowed to seek the best for himself or to accept it when he finds it, he will live a joyless life. I assume we can now agree that this is not what the Bible teaches.
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Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/05/06 09:25:06 PM |
Age 57, VA |
When you say, "On the other hand, 57 VA again goes beyond what the Bible teaches to make Christianity a joyless, oppressive life," you presume a lie. You presume that a person or I would be joyless or oppressed if I lived a life focused on being a lover of God rather than a lover of self. Millions of Christians adhere to this same teaching that I quote from the bible. And they are happy, joyous, productive, and faithfully working in the harvest field. On the other hand, millions who would rather be lovers of self rather than lovers of God are compromising, self-absorbed, and bound up in problems which could be solved by teaching them that the flesh wars against the spirit and when we are willing to die to self and walk in the Spirit, the confusion, struggle, and lack of peace will disappear. "I" was crucified with Christ and it is not I who live but Christ who lives in me and the life that I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me. I cannot walk in this truth, by trying to love my self or satisfy myself. I have to love God and try to satisfy Him. When I do, when I seek HIM first and not my own pleasure, all things are added to me. That is how righteousness. peace. and JOY come! How can you say that is not true? You say I have to "love myself" to have peace and joy. That is not what the Bible says. Peace and joy come from seeking God first, putting God before myself! You want me to agree that we agree on a lot. That is like me agreeing that I and a Catholic (which I was) agree on a lot. If I agree with your theory, I deny the Word of God. I compromise. I must decrease so He can increase. I must lose my life to gain life. You are trying to convince me we believe basically the same things and it is just semantics or something. But your theory is seeker friendly, headed towards universalism and emergent church thinking. I can't and won't agree with any of that. How can two walk together unless they agree? I have to agree with the bible in order to walk with Jesus. If I am walking with Him I must agree with Him, not with what sounds good or tickles my ears! You want to tickle ears! Yours mostly, maybe. Am I presuming too much? I can't imagine, since you so passionately want others to "AGAPE" themselves, you must want that too for yourself "or something of the like!" To Agape yourself almost sounds Blasphamous! Prideful, self-centered! Egocentric! We receive God's love to give it away, not to heap it on ourselves!Bottom line is this is utterly ridiculous!
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Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/05/06 04:41:28 PM |
Age 44, TX |
God bless you and thanks for the input. Actually, none of us can elaborate fully on this topic via our comments. I don't agree that VA 57 paints the picture of a "joyless Christianity", but rather that the path to resurrection is death - the path to the promise land is through the desert places of dying to self-love and worldly thinking. Ps 51 lays out the divinely prescribed prescrition which begins with purging and cleansing then the joy of His salvation is restored to us and evangelism of the lost (see Ps 51 carefully). When He cleanses our hearts and minds of the sinful self pre-occupation, and fills us with His joy, it will be genuine divine joy and gladness and not a propped up false happiness we sometimes mistake for the fruit of the Spirit which is "love, joy..." (Gal. 5:22-23). Jesus had joy and gladness ABOVE all, but Jesus lived a laid down life, void of the love of self (Ps 45:7; Heb. 1:9; Jn. 15:11; 16:22). This is the joy of Jesus that comes through obedience of losing our lives and gaining His life and this is the joy that no man can take away (Jn. 15:1;16:22). Thanks, todd
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Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/05/06 08:20:45 AM |
Age 43, TX |
I was encouraged by the careful wording of the article. The Bible is indeed very emphatic about worldly self-love and the evil allures of those who seek primarily to obtain the sensual gratification of their worldly lusts. On the other hand, 57 VA again goes beyond what the Bible teaches to make Christianity a joyless, oppressive life. As my earlier posts to previous editions of this thread have stated, the Bible assumes that we will love ourselves and likens this to how Christ loves the church (Eph. 5:29). Please differentiate the "phileo" love of self (which is condemned by the Bible and indicates a self satisfaction and contentedness with oneself) from an "agape" love of self (in which we pursue godliness as that which is best for ourself and which is not condemned by scripture). Again, I think that we do not disagree as much as one might think. Thank you again for this interesting and challenging series of articles.
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Re: Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/03/06 03:21:56 PM |
Age 44, TX |
Karen this is so well stated. Thank you and I fully agree. Todd T. Ever been to the Psycho-Heresy site? http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/mainpage.html This site rocks.
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Re: DID JESUS TEACH MEN TO LOVE THEMSELVES? Part 4
| Posted On: 06/03/06 04:13:23 AM |
Age 57, VA |
Yes, in describing the evil of the last days, that is what the scripture says in 2 Tim 3:2 and 4. It says in verse 2, "for men will be "lovers of self"... verse 4 "RATHER THAN "lovers of God." The bible doesn't ever imply or say that loving self is a good thing! The bottom line is that when Jesus said "love others as yourself", he meant to replace your stinking self-love with loving others. He meant when we love others RATHER than ourselves, we are being lovers of God rather than lovers of self. The bible teaches us to love God first and love others second rather than ourselves! Now we have the full counsel of God when we put 2 Tim 3:2-4 with Matthew 22:39 and the other scriptures about loving others. Being lovers of self is just not a good thing! The world will tell you to love yourself and if you are having trouble, they will tell you to go get some Prozac, have a face lift, take a vacation, have a Starbucks, do something good for yourself rather than always for others! Dr Phil and Oprah and others will tell you and encourage you to love yourself, but they arent speaking from the heart of God or teaching what the Holy Spirit would teach. Karen
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