Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 08/24/06 11:38:30 AM |
Age 29, IA |
A god who needed billions of years to complete his creation through trial and error is dumb, weak, cruel and not worth worshiping. God did it right the first time. Any "science" that uses lies (human embryo has gills) and ideas proven wrong already (neanderthal man, "it takes millions of years for fossils to form") as support is not science. "The rock layers date the fossils, but the fossils date the rock layers more accurately." Go to answersingenesis.org or drdino.com for more info.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 05/05/06 10:27:44 AM |
Age 26, IL |
If you are interested in scientific claims against evolution then I would suggest a book by Jonathan Wells titled "The Icons of Evolution." He is not (at least at the time of writing) a Christian, yet he challenges the theory of evolution based upon the quality of evidence given in most Biology textbooks. He discusses things such as: peppered moths, Darwin's finches, embryonic racapitulation, bone structure similarity and so on. I don't have room here to go into much detail, but I would be willing to converse more over email. My address is pastorluke@calvarybaptistbiblechurch.com
Thank you,
Pastor Luke Wolford
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/12/06 11:41:05 AM |
Age 23, NY |
In response:
This article was about evolution, and its "false nature." I stated claims in order to support the theory of evolution, which counteracts your biblical beliefs, and instead of receiving counter evidence, i have received nothing but responses about my salvation. It seems as though, whenever I make a point that Christians cannot counter, they divert themselves around the question and talk in circles, or transcend into some speech about my salvation. I live a very good life, by any standards. So if there is a God and Heaven, then I will be just fine.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/11/06 01:17:40 PM |
Age 56, AR |
This is in response to the 23 yr old:
The fact is, you can't come to Christ until his Holy Spirit draws you. I would like to see you come to faith in Jesus Christ but I think you're fighting against God, much like Paul kicked against the goads. After I was saved, several years later, I found that I couldn't believe the whole bible was God inspired and complete truth. I wanted to believe it, so I was confirming what scripture says. "Any man who wants to do God's will, will know his doctrine", or what he's about and what's true. I don't know when it happened but I thought back when I didn't totally trust the Lord and I realized I had grown by faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone. He will help the sinner believe. We can't work it up, he has to do it. Being a Christian isn't easy, even though Jesus said "my yoke is easy and my burden is light". His way is easier when you let God take control of the life he created, yours. He has a purpose and will fulfill it if you let him. Truthfully, we make a mess of this short life. I'm praying for you!
Brenda
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Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/10/06 09:09:14 AM |
Age 35, MS |
Your comments are typical of Darwinists: When losing intelligent arguments that defeat my point of view, resort to name calling and other ad hominem attacks.
Your point of view shows that you are so open-minded that your brain has fallen out
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Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/10/06 01:08:26 AM |
Age 56, KS |
OK, what is your proof that God doesn't/didn't use evolution? Without name-calling, convince me. I see in the beginning of Genesis the belief that God created; rather than that the creation is God. I really don't believe God's message in the creation story is man's understanding of "six" days. If thats the message you get perhaps your God is too small. The religious right was convinced that Jesus was not of God because he didn't "keep" the Sabbath. Their eronious beliefs kept them from seeing what God was doing right in front of them. Jesus said, "Go learn the meaning of the words, 'Mercy is what pleases me; not sacrifice.'" I believe Jesus would say the same to us today.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/09/06 12:52:51 PM |
Age 57, VA |
The fact remains that Jesus loves you and HE WANTS SALVATION FOR YOU. Even though many Christians have seemed to let you down and have not protrayed what you believe God to be, He still loves you. It is ultimately not about this green earth, homosexuality,or video games, it is about Jesus and Eternity. I would encourage everyone who reads this last comment to pray for this person, whether he wants us to or not!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/08/06 09:11:52 PM |
Age 23, NY |
I've been told to read in Job. It's vague, incredibly could-be-interpreted-as-anything vague. The Bible is full of exaggerations used to make certain points and to exercise its ideas. The Bible is good for its ideas and its moral aspects, not as a historical reference, as you seem to believe it to be. Yes, evolution is a theory, because it is so incredibly hard to prove, but logic tells us that there has been some sort of evolution. That is the only way to explain the different bone structures in humans over time. If you have studied athropology at all, then you would have learned that the human skull alone has changed drastically over time, along with the human brain. Please explain how that is possible without evolution. The brain even evolves from when a child is a baby to when they are an adult.
Dinosaurs never lived with humans.
And, there is no way that a man was able to get 2 of every species of animal, including dinosaurs, onto an Ark. Not because this is spacially impossible, but because these animals could not all exist in the same place at the same time, due to nature and climates along with intinctual predatation.Here's a more likely scenario-->there was a large flood in a time where man lived by his land. One man was intelligent and built a craft that he could put all of his animals on, in order for he and the animals to survive this flood. Many other people died and lost their livestock.The writers of the Bible were very creative and used this story and molded it into a parable. Every religion has a flood story. Every man on earth has experienced some sort of flood in time, and yet we survive without an Ark, and animals survive without any assistance from man. In fact, animals under the control of humans, are less likely to survive because they are unable to have any control, even when their instincts try to save them.
I do not intend to disprove the possibility of creationism. It's very possible that a God created this world and then it evolved, but I know that there has been some kind of evolution. It's impossible to deny unless you are entirely ignorant.
on a side note. I never really hear about Christians being active in protecting animals from extinction. That should be a major worry. Man is destryoying the Earth, and you sit back and complain about homosexuals, and video games. I do not want salvation. I do not want to live in an afterlife that rewards greedy, self-centered, intolerant, ignorant, pig-headed racists whose hypocritical nature far excedes anything the world has ever seen. A God that rewards this is not a God at all, but rather a "demon," a "devil," a "master of temptation and evil."
oh, and when is this Jesus fella coming back? He's long overdue, if you are right. What happened to all the fire and brimstone? When will heaven and hell count their souls?What happens when hell wins this race ?
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Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/08/06 06:05:51 PM |
Age 61, NJ |
This article was well-written and succinct; whereas, it was quite clear that those few who responded negatively were either unable or unwilling to produce any evidence in support of evolution.
I would like to clarify one misconception concerning the supposed differing two accounts of creation found in Genesis 1 and 2. This is a misreading of these two passages. There is the overview account of the creation week (6 days) in Genesis 1 and the more detailed look at the creation of man and woman found in Genesis 2.
Fundamental to the issue of origins is the insistence of evolutionists that their field of pursuit is one of science (which is isnt) rather than philosophy (which it is).
Science is knowledge based on observed facts and tested truths arranged in an orderly system; whereas, philosopjy is an explanation or theory of the universe, especially the particular explanation or system of a philosopher. The former is more objective and the latter is more subjective.
Science deals with the reproducible which means that anyone in any place or time can test the hypothesis concerning its truth or falsity. An origin is a one time event and as such cannot so tested. That is to say, if evolutionists could, tomorrow, produce life or even a plausible consistent theory of the evolution of life. they would still have failed unless they could demonstrate the utter impossibility of any and all other theories of origins, i.e. creation in particular. Remember that in a court of law, prosecutors only win if they can prove that their interpretation of the facts is the only plausible one. And evolutionists are light-years away from either of the aforementioned possibilies.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/08/06 01:28:33 PM |
Age 57, VA |
This is so true, but the problem is that carbon dating is not always accurate. It can be manipulated to support the theory that these Dinasaurs or anything for that matter, lived thousand and thosands of years ago instead of a few thousand. Read some of the christain Scientists' (that is scientists who are also christians who adhere to creationalism) reports and explinations of this. Check out both sides of the argument from a scientific perspective. There are reasons evolution s still called a Theory
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/08/06 10:13:44 AM |
Age 49, NE |
if you don't question God then you should take Him at His Word. every word. To answer your question about dinosaurs with man, yes they were together on this earth. even after Noah's flood! read in Job where God is answering Job, about Leviathan and Behemoth that God told Job to observe. Reading the descriptions of these two magnificent creatures, especially of Behemoth says they were dinosaurs and nothing less( the cedar trees spoken of that describe its tail were large trees of 40 - 60 feet in length ) Also in the Psalms King David spoke of Leviathan playing in the water among the ships in the sea! The fossil record that we see today of all the dinosaurs are because they were the ones that missed the boat. Even here in the U.S. there are layers of fossils that include dinosaur and human bones in the same place mixed together.
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Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/08/06 10:08:07 AM |
Age 57, VA |
First of all, if someone thought of Nazi Germany when thinking about "clergy" lining up to sign documents that DEFY SCRIPTURE but does not want to know the names of those signing the list (as one commenter indicated), would they also not have wanted to know who was slaughtering millions of human beings under the Nazi Regime? ( Oh, we're "Christians, we can't possibly name names and accuse someone of slaughtering humans. That would be so unchristian!") That is really scary for us, the Body of Christ. I just wonder, if there had been a link to the names of the "Clergy Letter Project, which garnered the signatures of over 10,000 Clergy who claim the "theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth that is compatible with Christianity", would that have been called "name calling?" I am alarmed that the Body of Christ is afraid to name names when Apostle Paul did. (Demas- 2 Tim 4:10, Alexander and Hymenaeus-1Tim 1:19-20 and 2Tim 4:14-19) In warning his followers of the damage and harm others had brought to him and thus the Body, Apostle Paul named names. Besides if someone puts their name on something, they must have intended to stand behind their signature and what they were endorsing when they signed on the dotted line. Secondly, if a "Christian" believes everything Science and Medicine tells them and unfortunately what many "Clergy" (10,000 plus, anyway) tells them these days they are ignorant of the Will and Word of God. If we buy into all that they say, we will end up endorsing partial birth abortions when "necessary", ordaining Homosexuals because they are scientifically "proven to be born that way," legislating embryonic stem cell research because it is so "beneficial to MANKIND", regardless of the MANKIND that it kills to obtain the cells. A young girl, age 11, who comes to our church with her Mother, who was pregnant out of wedlock, was alarmed and struggling with the fact that her Mom was considering an abortion. In much distress over the situation, she told her Mom one day, "That's great, Mom, my baby brother is going to get his "death certificate" before he gets his "birth certificate!" At this, her Mom decided to keep the "baby", choosing to believe that it was a "baby" and rejecting medicine and science and many "Clergy" who were telling her it was just a "fetus." No, I, too, would like to know who these "Clergy" are, to know who in my area believes and TEACHES other than what the Bible teaches. Why should the Body of Christ be in the dark? I will research this more to find out because these men are wrong and a danger to the Body of Christ. The Bible teaches us that we need to be like children to enter the kingdom of God. He didn't mean we weren't suppose to grow up, go to college, learn a skill or profession, like medicine or science or biolog, and not use our heads to live on this earth and be fruitful. He did mean however, we were to approach life with the pure HEART of a child rather than the corrupted and many times greedy MIND of adult. The Bible goes a step farther to say that the things of God are FOLLISHNESS TO THE WISE. That means we can be too smart for our own good and we can begin to think the things that the Bible plainly teaches are rather nothing but foolishness, like these "Clergy" have done. NO thanks! "The B.I.B.L.E., that's the book for me. I'll stand alone on the WORD OF GOD, THE B.I.B.L.E."
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Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/08/06 07:40:50 AM |
Age 52, OH |
As I read this commenters response I couldn't help to think why he didn't present the "scientific proof" for his evolutionary belief. His comments are so typical of those who would rather call creationists fools and anti science than truly engage in debate. It's all emotion, no facts. I have a graduate degree in engineering. I have studied in depth the laws of science. I have been in the lab and tested many of these theories. If one truly understands the philosophy of science and its tenets, there is no controversy. When I engage an evolutionist on this topic, none have given me proof, testable proof, of their position. When I keep pressing them, they tend to result to subtle forms of name calling. At that point I just smile--fully, totally, and absolutely confident that I have met another person that has not studied what science truly is and has been whipped at his own game. BTW, since this critical area has been fully settled in my mind nearly 30 years ago, I have NOT ONCE questioned my salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/08/06 05:09:12 AM |
Age 57, VA |
In answer to your question, "when will we give it a rest?" I guess, when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom, when we will rule and reign with Him! Until then we will certainly continue! How about you? Aside from that, isn't it exciting that science and medicine just recently announced that they were able to grow a whole, healthy bladder from a cell of an adult instead of from an embryo? Did you know that carbon dating is not accurate? A live snail was found to be thousands of years old when carbon dated. (just one example of many/Read some of Dr. Henry M. Morris' books on Science) The bible says every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. Many will FINALLY BEND AND BOW and admit that Jesus is Lord, but only at the final judgment. And for those it will be too late, because they never knew Him, believed His Words, or served HIM in this lifetime. And won't they be surprised when the others come back to rule and reign with Him in the Millennium? Does this sound like a "Fairy tale" to you? So does evolution! What if you are wrong? Doctors are PRACTICING medicine. Jesus is THE GREAT PHYSICIAN, who teaches them everything good that they know. Right now you know "in part." One day you will not call us ninnyhammer,dumming downers, when your eyes are finally opened.
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Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/07/06 11:47:17 PM |
Age 23, NY |
That is the most intelligent thing I've ever heard on this site. Perfectly stated.
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Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/07/06 10:39:15 PM |
Age 44, PA |
When oh, when oh, WHEN will you give it a rest? Worship whatever you like, but please, please, please just stop wasting everyone's time and energy with your fruitless anti-science chicanery. It is very clear that creationists have no interest in understanding evolution. We get it. All clear. Understood. You wish to remain ignorant of reality. Fine. Just keep your wishes to yourself. You are dumbing down the country and making the US look like a pack of ninnyhammers. If you are soooo bent on having a theocracy, why don't you all form your own little country where you can be as benighted as you please without disturbing the important work of the grownups who have discoveries to make, medicine's to invent, and other things that are impossible to figure out with a creationist "worldview."
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Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/07/06 05:54:21 PM |
Age 53, NC |
Good article, gentle tone and no name calling. I have with study traveled from evolutionist, through the several compromises such as the Gap Theory to now a literlist in regard to interpretation of Gen 1 & 2. Interestingly I also now am sure of my salvation.
When I see stories of pastors lining up to sign documents that defy Scripture I am reminded of the pastors in Germany saluting Hitler as the swastika was unfurled over a large lighted Cross. Compromising the uncompromising Word and Work of God does not change His plan or its outcome, it can only harm we unbelieving fools. Grief and brokeness is a good response.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/07/06 04:45:26 PM |
Age 23, NY |
I believe in evolution, but I question it. And I don't believe in god but I question it. The thing is that There has to be some level of evolution to make sense to the physical and mental change in man alone. and then there's the whole dinosaurs thing. Are you going to tell me that man and dinosaurs existed at the same time, or do you still think that God put the dinosaurs bones there to test man?
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Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/07/06 03:48:46 PM |
Age 30, CA |
It is impossible to compare dogma to scientific theory. Why? One is based on faith and belief and the other is based on scientific research and theory.
Without faith, the proof of god is nowhere. With faith, the idea of nature being an unending, evolving system in a constant state of flux is ridiculous. One side looks for meaning in molecules and atoms, one side looks for meaning in the overarching faith in a creator. Since neither side can understand each other, it is a useless conversation/debate unless both sides can agree that the other's point of view is possible.
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Re: 10,000 Clergy Claim The Theory of Evolution is a Foundational Scientific Truth
| Posted On: 04/07/06 03:04:37 PM |
Age 56, KS |
"I am at times with people who espouse evolution. Whenever I have challenged their claims, however, I am often met with ridicule, sometimes with curiosity, and other times with a genuine desire to pursue the matter more. Sadly, most Christians that I discuss the matter with seem to know very little about what evolution or the Bible actually says."
When I am with people who do not believe in evolution I too note plenty of ridicule. It is true that many don't understand evolution or their Bible.
"The Genesis narrative, however, is plainly a historical narrative, and, therefore, must be read and interpreted as literal history."
I believe much of the Bible has history mixed with and explained with metaphor, poetry, analogies, etc. Even Genesis has two versions of the creation. The message God is giving has less to do with the how or time frame; than that God created the world, instead of this world or things in this world being God. Note the author used the terms 'bright light' and "not so bright light" rather than names which refered to "gods".
Our Bible has four Gospel books. Each are somewhat different but are obviously the same story. The Gospels are historical yet include poetry, analogies, the paraples, etc. (Look at John 1) Jesus told countless stories to explain the Kingdom. When we Christians try to pick apart each word of one story rather than see the message of the story we make the same mistake as those who used the Bible to prove the earth is flat.
Evolution: fact? or no? Probably the wrong question.
Jesus: Lord? or no? Better question.
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