Re: Re: Re: Re: A Definition Please
| Posted On: 04/03/06 09:55:00 AM |
Age 34, MD |
Dude! Just when we were starting to have a realistic discussion on some of the specifics of this whole situation... Then you had to grab the giant, broad brush that Mr. Silva painted his original article with, and start slapping a few more coats onto anything not standing still. How are we supposed to get anywhere like this??
Thanks Darren in Texas, for your your cogent and specific response to this "baby, bathwater, and everything else" mentality.
|
Re: Re: Re: A Definition Please
| Posted On: 03/30/06 11:18:31 PM |
Age 57, VA |
Did you get a chance to listen to the audio of Brian Mc Lauren on this website? He pretty much says that the doctrine of sin and judgment are in conflict with a loving God, to the point that he feels, emerging from inside himself, doubts about the very existence of hell. Now if that is what you would call "dumbing down of doctrine" and suggest that it is "negotiable," than heaven help us. If then, according to you, we should lighten up because SOME of the others in the movement may have their doctrine right, why would we be told to guard our hearts with all diligence, why are we told to have our senses trained to discern good and evil, why are we told not to participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead expose them, why are we told to warn people of coming danger, why are we given the parable of the Good Samaritan? Are we not our brother's keeper? How in the world do you EVEN BEGIN to say that these so called "dummied down doctrines" of theirs are "grounded in the scriptures?" Did you read the previous comments, which clearly explained the rebellion on the part of their leaders to accept the bible as the final authority? Brother! Comments like yours that defend the Emergent movement, science, the purpose driven life, illegal immigration, violent videos, sexual innuendo bible studies, and the like, smack in the face of what Jesus died to appropriate for us on the Cross. All I can say is that all the minimizing, denying, rationalize, and "yeah butting" the Word of God and everything the precious blood of Jesus bought for us is really sickening!
|
Re: Re: A Definition Please
| Posted On: 03/30/06 10:19:51 AM |
Age 36, TX |
My concern as I read your opinion is that it seems a bit pharisaical. Jesus came from the glory of heaven to walk these dusty roads and become part of the culture of that time. Although He was God the Son, he was considered a drunk and a glutton because he drank with drunks and ate with gluttons. He very much engaged the culture. I believe that the emergent church is trying to do the same--to reach the sinners by going to them. I realize that there are many in the emergent church movement who have taken it a step too far by dumbing down doctrine, but I don't believe those "weeds" should be a reason to call the wheat in the movement wrong. If they consider themselves a part of the emergent church but have sound doctrine, they are as grounded in the faith as you and I. I think some of us in the church have become so set in our ways that we have become unable or unwilling to look outside the box. This reminds me of the parable of the wineskins. We are definitely called to be alert and watch out for false prophets and false doctrines, but as long as the doctrine is grounded in scripture and meets all of the "nonnegotiables" of Christianity, whether they call themselves traditionalists or part of the emergent church movement is irrelevant.
|
Re: The Emerging Church And The BibleNot!
| Posted On: 03/30/06 09:06:44 AM |
Age 38, AL |
As I sit and read selected articles on this site, there is an opposition to almost every one of them. Reading the replies truly illustrates what is being taught in today's churches. Churches today are ever-so-carefully, and not to offend, steering souls away from the Truth.
People are being fed garbage from the pulpit...and loving it!
Pastor Silva uses the word "interpretation". In our personal account, we were force-fed the word "perception". What an easy way to shrug your responsibilities as a child of God! Blasphemy.
If the church wasn't so hell-bent(and I do mean that literally)on "Loving everyone no matter what they do", many tragedies would not be taking place. We have watched innocent people, who needed to be shown the love of Christ, be turned away from the church because they were considered trouble. Hypocrasy. I guess I missed the fine print that states, "except when they can make our church look bad". Authority has been handed over to those that have no place. God is the final authority, and when you take Him out, you are left with a purpose-driven world. Speaking of which, our old pastor is friends with the purpose driven pastor. When his book came out he came as "guest speaker". We didn't attend. We did, however, see the stacks of books on tables, week after week, outside of the sanctuary ready to be sold at a "special discounted price", because he was friends with our pastor. Things like that disgust me.
Let's all imagine for moment, God coming as the guest speaker. This is actually hard for me to grasp, because God is ever present, but let's just imagine for a moment.
We step out of the sanctuary and see stacks of Bibles...and guess what? Your special price is Free!
Oh sure, if you step out in front of the congregation and make yourself a lure for others, you get a free Bible after visiting the pastor's table, but really, why can't you just get a free one at the end of each service? I mean, after all, isn't God the speaker every week? Why do YOU have to add to the mood set by music, follow the footsteps of others down the sloping floor which leads to your "salvation". Why do we accept the coersion? Where does discernment factor in?
The ONLY rejuvenation going on in some churches is the tickling of your self-esteem and the widening of one's pocketbook.
Why do we rush to buy the next self-help item when all we need is the Bible? Wow! Think about how many people would be without income if we all turned to God's Word instead of the television or the NY Times best seller. I think that's what is lost in many lives. Many have lost faith in His Holy Word because they are steered away from it...mostly, by churches. The Bible doesn't say "preach self-help to all the nations". Why then, do we so readily accept all that we are fed? We need to question every bit of information that is handed to us. We don't HAVE to serve in some area of the church. You serve daily, anywhere that you may be, as long as what you're doing brings glory to Him and not yourself. Not everyone is called to serve in the brick and mortar building at the same time. Too many families are so involved in church activities that what they don't realize is that their husband and children, who should come 2nd and 3rd on their list of priorities, are being neglected.
In our family, if God's Word isn't the foundation for every thought or action, we question it, then we judge it. Yes, now there's a word that most are taught not to do. If you are a child of God, you'd best be questioning the actions of other Christians. How can you encourage someone in the spiritual walk if you don't know why they're doing/saying what they're doing? I am not perfect. I make plenty of mistakes. I am not better than anyone. The only reason I write is because things have got to change. Churches are influencing many in the wrong direction, and sadly, as a result, they will die twice.
Just one question: why is there a heaven and hell if all we have to do is love each other regardless of what we've done? I mean, after all, the only thing that matters is perception and interpretation, right?
|
Re: A Definition Please
| Posted On: 03/29/06 08:22:19 PM |
Age 50, NH |
Darren, you are welcome and I appreciate your interaction. The Emerging (Emergent) Church is rather easy to grasp once you realize it is simply a rebellion against authority - and particularly the Bible itself. The rest is just word-play on the part of the Leadership Network who is actually behind it. The whole point of this "conversation" frankly is equivocation with language so I have no interest in that kind of interaction. Thus my definition of an Emerging (Emergent) church is any church that considers themselves part of the movement. The huge problem people make is to get drawn into is trying to get these people to define anything. Once you do they just redefine it anyway. Bottom line is if this movement is truly from God then the Reformation was not a move of God for it is diametrically opposed. Judge the fruit of the martyrs of the Reformation with the fruit of the jell-o stance of men like Bell and McLaren and the bad tree of apostate Rome becomes more apparent. And what I just said is actually illiustrated completely by Rob Bell. First he tells us truth can't be known for certain. Then he says the historic orthodox view of the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible is "warped and toxic." And then he says he believes in the authority of the Bible. These views do not add up, and I am simply drawing attention to it. If somone is truly sent by Christ he will "hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." (Titus 1:9) Bell and McLaren can't do this because by their own admission they are not sure what this message is/was. People may say what they will about me, but I have made my stand. And I can live with this: "What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31 Pastor Ken Silva
|
Re: The Emerging Church And The Bible?Not!
| Posted On: 03/29/06 11:04:48 AM |
Age 21, MN |
Thank you sir. In the quote you included by A.W. Tozer, it really seems to me that Tozer was describing this, what you call cult, Emergent movement of the church when he spoke of what is needed for rejuvenation. And to me it sounds like the part where he say this will receive "hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom" describes the hatred and opposition that the emergent movement has received from writers like yourself, particularly through this web site. I guess Tozer was waiting for us to come and rejuvenate the church.
|
A Definition Please
| Posted On: 03/29/06 10:35:47 AM |
Age 39, TX |
Pastor Silva,
Thanks for your clarification on your definition of cults and that you do not consider Saddleback and Mars Hill to be cults. I think that what makes this entire discussion of the emergent church difficult is that it is not clearly defined. A cult is a little easier definition for evangelical Christians to grasp because it predominately means a religious system that rejects the mainstream tenants of orthodoxy (e.g. inerrancy of Scripture, Trinity, etc.). Cults typically follow one leader with one unique doctrine and fail to properly answer questions like, Who is Christ? What is mans problem? How does Christ fix your problem? So Mormons, Christian Science, Jehovahs Witness easily classify as cults. I notice the gentleman that first replied to my post used words like mega and purpose-driven. I think were lumping in too many entities into this thing called the emerging church that is not clearly defined. I have asked a lot of people what emerging church means and I get answers all over the place. Positively, it is said to be those that are willing to engage a postmodern culture without compromising their faith. Negatively, it is said to be those that are willing to engage a postmodern culture by becoming a postmodern faith. Regarding the Bell quote, I felt your article was specific to his quote in his book. He clearly develops this thought so to zero in on that quote seemed unfair. If you had referenced other things he had said or written that would have carried more weight. Your article worked from that quote of which he seems to qualify a few words later. But you are correct that I assumed more than I should and I apologize. There is no question you do impeccable research and I appreciate your hard work for the Lord. Could you please give me one clear definition of what is an emergent church? I think we could all benefit from that. Darren
|
Church of Laodicea..Connect the Dots!!
| Posted On: 03/28/06 05:24:11 PM |
Age 42, IN |
It is my belief, Sir, that Mr. Silva definitely is on to something. Call it a conspiracy. The devil's! But, we were attending a "willowcreek" "Purpose-Driven" mega church & I knew that there was something very much the matter there. The more I researched, and read, the more I recognized the False Church that both is spoken of in the Bible. Jesus will "vomit out" the lukewarm Gospel. (watered down so that the sinner doesn't "feel bad") Check out Lighthousetrailresearch.com. It is a great place to start. I know from the Bible that the "Peace & Unity" of all religions(One World Religion)is starting to happen. Check out Bono's involvement with the government & COEXIST!!! You will also find Bono as pn the roster for the "Leadership Summit 2006 (Willowcreek). Rick Warren, Bill Clinton, Kofi Annan, Global Peace Summit Nov. 2005....You must start connecting the dots, Sir!
|
Re: Tap the Brakes Mr. Silva
| Posted On: 03/28/06 03:05:00 PM |
Age 50, NH |
To answer your question re. the use of the word "cult," having a good part of my training under the tape ministry of Dr. Walter Martin, yes, the Emergent Church does fit his definition of cult. And if he were still with us he would be roundly denounce this apostate (at best) mysticism infesting the Church of Christ.
I do wish people would the articles more closely. I did not say I consider Saddleback as an "emergent" church. I also did not say Mars Hill Church is a cult. The Emergent Church movement which Saddleback is not part of, and Mars Hill is, itself is in my view a cultic movement. It has its own interpretation of the Bible, its leaders and its denial of historic orthodox Christian doctrine - the doctrine recovered in the Reformation.
As far as Bell's book, I'd caution you against judging unfairly that I have not read "further." Perhaps if you would take the time to investigate postmodernism - of which Bell is a subscriber - more carefully you'd see that it denies that truth can be known objectively (for certain). Therefore, regardless of how he sloughs it off, Bell is denying the final authority of Scripture because he does not believe that can be a final source of truth that can be known.
So I would urge you to do a bit better research on these subjects before you make the choice to take what I said out of its context. If you'd like to engage someone like me in a dialogue it would be helpful for you to follow your own advice and do so a bit more cautiously.
Pastor Ken Silva
|
Re: The Emerging Church And The BibleNot!
| Posted On: 03/28/06 12:37:55 PM |
Age 56, AR |
I think the author, mentioning Purpose Driven and Word of Faith church, was using them as examples of what is going wrong in the Evangelical community today. Speaking soft words (no absolutes, no depravity) and making people run to the darkness instead of the light. Making them believe you don't have to be lost or be a sinner to be accepted by the Lord of Glory. The charismatic church thinks if we say the right words things will change, that the word of faith releases power in a spiritual sense, and we'll get what we ask for. Of course we pray, but there is not specific way or words to pray. If we don't know what to pray, God knows our hearts and needs. I think this is where the Mysticism comes in today. People think that you can get to God by using a specific word or praying a specific way. Not so! If we would study God's attributes, we would know what he's like and then we'd know what Jesus is like. Jesus said, "You know me, you know the Father."
|
Tap the Brakes Mr. Silva
| Posted On: 03/28/06 11:18:06 AM |
Age 39, TX |
Mr. Silva, are you sure you want to use words like cult. Are you suggesting that Saddleback Church, Mars Hill Church, and others you have included as emergent churches are cults? You might want to tap the brakes. I understand you see a potential heresy. The way Joel Osteen downplays the doctrine of sin, is very concerning. But exactly how many churches in America are you willing to call a cult. If you want to selectively refute a particular doctrine or statement, that is beneficial, but you seem to be on a mission to condemn any church that is not directly inline with your beliefs.
I remember awhile back that you criticized Rob Bell for a statement in Velvet Elvis for saying that that Scripture alone is not our guide. If you would have kept reading, he was clearly making that point that reading Scripture with guidance of the Holy Spirit is our guide. Anyone can read the Bible, but read with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is the proper way to reach a right interpretation. If you want to criticize those in the emergent church, which I assume means engaging the culture without compromising Scripture, then lets take on these issues fairly, and not taking a quote out of context to make a point.
I can see you passion to fight for the tenants of our faith, but lets do it cautiously.
|
Re: The Emerging Church And The BibleNot!
| Posted On: 03/28/06 10:44:02 AM |
Age 57, VA |
I was amazed at the article. I have the same thoughts as this article or perhaps I should simply say, I agree, Amen, Hallelujah, pass the ammo! May we say, "Here am I send me!" Come Lord Jesus and send your Elijah to prepare the way, to bring down the mountains and raise the valleys. Amen. To the Only True and Great God be glory. His Grace and peace be with you.
Kenny Carpenter
Suffolk, VA
|
Re: The Emerging Church And The BibleNot!
| Posted On: 03/27/06 09:56:39 PM |
Age 50, IL |
Yes, I pray that God will send us another Jeremiah or Ezekial or John the Baptist, but I doubt the backslidden, apostate church will listen any better than they did thousands of years ago. We rejected the whole word of God and whittled it down to the Pauline Epistles-"we are not under the law we're under grace" and turned the grace of God into a license to sin. God has laid out his good and perfect will within the first five books of the Bible but we have rejected it and leaned on our own understanding to define what sin is.Sin islawlessness 1JOHN 3:4). That means just what it says. Love for God is this that you obey his commands.
|
|
|
|
|
