Nothing New Under the Sun
| Posted On: 10/30/09 07:50:43 AM |
Age 58, KY |
Thank you, Dan. Well said, and briefly so. No pontification neccesary.
Dr. Grady McMurtry (creationworldview.org) does an excellent job of addressing the issue of 24-hour days in his book Creation: Our Worldview. Using the lexicons of Brown, Driver and Briggs, and Koehler and Baumgartner, Grady gives every possible meaning of all Hebrew references to "day", and you can draw no other conclusion than a 24 hour day.
Thanks, Dan. By your posting here, I assume you spend some time at Worldview Matters.
Time well spent.
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VERY INTERESTING
| Posted On: 10/16/09 01:33:46 PM |
Age 66, OH |
Thanks for the post, Gerard. - Grace to you. Lou
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YOM
| Posted On: 10/16/09 08:35:40 AM |
Age 50, NETHERLANDS |
Hallo Lou. Everyone his own meanings about this. But: Please read my first post of 13-10-09, title: ,,gap theory". Have a nice day! Gerard.
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GOD OBEYS HIS OWN LAWS - JUST AS JESUS DID
| Posted On: 10/14/09 01:45:48 PM |
Age 66, OH |
Hi Gerard, I do not agree. We are NOT forced to conclude that these days are earth solar days. We are not even forced to conclude that this account is even about time, yet alone centered on time as some would have us believe. No matter if you say 1st day, day one. or One day it is still left to the meaning of the word "day". God says that the heavens declare His glory. God also calls Himself "The Ancient of Days". I think a very old universe shows the glory of God much more than a universe that is a mere 6000 years old. God says he is beyond our understanding: anyone can comprehend 6000 years but what man can comprehend 13 billion years. We also have the account of the creation that was left to us by God. All I can see seems to show a very old creation. - You speak of the power of God and we are all thankful that God is all powerful. But God says in the scriptures that he created the universe by His wisdom not power alone. God does not ask us to follow His laws and then not follow them Himself. Look at when God became a Man. Jesus was humble and obeyed God, even though He was God. God obeyed all of His own laws when he created this universe. - Lou Newton
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the word YOM
| Posted On: 10/14/09 10:02:14 AM |
Age 50, NETHERLANDS |
Dear Isaac: In the Hebrew text, in Gen.1, the ,,first day" is not literally translated from ,,Yom Echad'. Echad means ONLY ONE, and NOT first. It is the same word that is used to say ,,Hear, Israel, The Lord thy God is ONE. (Echad). So: It was literal ONE day and not more or less. The rest is correctly translated: ,,second-third--" So, we are forced to conclude these were literally days of 24 hours. etc. etc. By the way: God is powerfull enough to create all things in half an hour or so, but the reason He did it in 6 days and 7th day rest is: Order. Order in His creation, and it has a strong prophetic meaning too. Greets, Gerard.
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Follow Christ, not Scripture
| Posted On: 10/14/09 08:32:47 AM |
Age 49, MO |
At the end of the article, David defends his stance by writing that "God's word is at stake." Since Jesus is the word of God, God the word is NEVER at stake. Scripture is but a testiment of the truth of God, and God's truth is also found in creation. Thus, what David finds at stake is HIS interpretation of Scripture. When we seek God, truth needs no defense and we realize that our interpretations are but individual sin. John
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,,Gap Theory".
| Posted On: 10/13/09 08:56:59 AM |
Age 50, NETHERLANDS |
Dear Mr. Reagan, though I respect you as a brother in Christ: I read your story and arguments against that ,,theory", and saw nowhere just one good argument against it. Nothing. The only things you forward is non Biblical supposings and own theories, such as ,,God`s Word is at stake" and your talk about evolution etc. etc. Sir: Keep yourself by the Bible with your arguments, without your personal meanings. It is indeed so that God created Heaven and Earth, in front of AL his angels, who were utterly estonished by the greatness and beauty of it and ALL THE MORNINGSTARS jubilated, as Job says.You deny that, following your own personal thoughts and traditions. Ezechiel says ,,How art thou fallen (cast) from heaven, morning star--, fire I made in thy inner, that burned you, to ashes you became on the ground..) That was the fall of God`s great adversary, and you know that too. You also know very well that a PERFECT God did not make an imperfect, ABANDONED AND DESTROYED WORLD. On the contrary, the Bible says in Jesaya 45 that God did not create the earth as a destruction-(waste) but for inhabitation He created her!! The same word used here fore waste or destruction is used in Genesis 1 (Tohu wa Bohu)!!!
And you know that too Brother Reagan! You and every believer know that there was, long BEFORE Adam and Eve, a terrible war between angels, and that one third was thrown down and judged by God. These angels once inhabitated this world and had a very high civilization, and that civilization was utterly destroyed, burned and crushed to pieces and rubble. Pure and alone according to the Bible and our stones who are speaking to us right before our eyes from this wounded and destroyed world. That is what happened. And You also know that in Hebrew of Genesis are two words for our word ,,creation": To ,,Create" and ,,Sprout out or be called out again". We, the big animals, the birds, etc. were litterally created, but the plants, grasses and trees were called out again, because in the mud and sludge of the destroyed earth were still the bulbs, knolls and seeds and roots of them. Also the lights in heaven were REPAIRED (called out) in Gen. 2 and 3 and NOT CREATED. Why repaired?? Because our whole solar system was covered in a huge, thick cloud of smoke and ashes caused by that terrible intergalactic war between those superpowers: God`s angels. And last but not least: Do not accuse your brothers and sisters of believing the evolution rubbish, those are your words and not ours and is a bad political argument. What we read in Genesis 1 is the REPAIR of this destroyed earth and CREATION of living creatures in litterally SIX DAYS. The real age of this world you and I do not know. So: If next time you argue against something: Keep it clean without turning around with personal meanings and not to the point arguments. Let the Bible speak. Greets: Gerard, Netherlands.
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Indeed,
| Posted On: 10/10/09 01:54:38 PM |
Age 49, MO |
Well spoken.
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Hey Dan:
| Posted On: 10/10/09 01:41:32 PM |
Age 49, MO |
You are right that I should be more guarded in what I say and I will try to remember. But perhaps you should reread what David has said. Noteably: "In fact, almost every time I have ever spoken or written about Creation, I have made it a point to denounce that theory." And, "We need to stop playing games with the Creation story. If it is not reliable, then what part of the Bible can we believe? The Day-Age folks spiritualize it. But, if it is to be spiritualized, then where do we stop spiritualizing? The Gap Theory folks try to prop-up the story by inventing a gap that doesn't exist. I think the best approach is to accept by faith the plain sense meaning." If these two quotes don't speak to his pride in his interpretation, then I don't know what will. In fact, if you re-read my other posts, you will see I say that our interpretations are meaningless in the grand scope of things. John
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GOD CAN ACT BUT IDOLS CAN NOT WALK OR TALK
| Posted On: 10/09/09 03:15:29 AM |
Age 66, OH |
Dear friend David, you say, "The reason this issue is so important is because the integrity of God's Word is at stake". - The integrity of God's word can never be at stake. If something has integrity it is incorruptible, honest and true. How can the word of God ever be corrupted or made untrue. God said, let there be light and there was light. Jesus said, Lazarus come forth; for if Jesus had not specified Lazarus, all of the dead would have been raised. God's word can be doubted by puny and foolish men, but God's word will have integrity forever and forever. When Jesus returns He will put an end to Satan's deception of men by speaking one word. Every knee will bow and the integrity of God's word will never be doubted again. Men never need to defend the One and Only true God Almighty who is The Lord Jesus Christ. It is when men are looking to a false idol that they are angered by someone who speaks against that idol. The reason they get angry is that in their heart they know that this idol can not walk or talk or defend itself. They have learned this by their experience of the past times their idol was spoke against, and those that spoke were not punished by God. So they then have to defend their idol of wood, stone, metal or of the mind. We can look at the town people who were angry at Gideon for destroying their idol and so they wanted to kill Gideon. They knew by experience that Baal would not, because it could not, disciple Gideon. So they desired to kill Gideon to prop up their belief in the piece of wood that they called god. - When men speak against some belief we have of the nature of God, or doctrine, we can rest in God to discipline anyone who spoke in error. If we are angered by the remark, then maybe we need to seek God about the issue. - Lou Newton
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IS THE SUN IN THE HEAVENS
| Posted On: 10/08/09 07:28:10 PM |
Age 66, OH |
Dear friend, I am blind, lame, and crippled in both hands so I can not see or do anything right or good. But the Lord in His great mercy and grace has caused me to see my foolish ways and so turn to Him and none other. So please be patient with me and my foolish ways. But I am compelled to preach what I perceive The Lord Jesus has shown me, which was only because He has declared that He uses the foolish things of this world. - Is the sun part of the heavens. That is an easy question in my opinion. I look up into the heavens on any sunny day and the 1st thing that I see is the sun. You say,"Since the sun wasn't created until day 4". I would question if you are changing the words of the Holy Scriptures. In the account of day 4, God does NOT use the word "create" one time, does He. But God does say this in verse 1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Here God does use the word "create" and God says that He created the heavens in the beginning. To create is to make something from nothing. If the heavens were created in the beginning, how could the sun be created on day 4. Is not the sun part of the heavens. It is good to have faith in what God has said, but is it not also good to ask God and make sure we are really sticking to what God said ,and NOT to what we ourselves believe. Have you never wondered how the earth produced the plants on the 3rd day without the sun. Look at what God says, "The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." What kind of plants do we have on this earth now. Did not Jesus create everything that exists and nothing exists that Jesus did not create. So we know that we have the same kind of plants now as we did then. Because the plants then brought forth seeds that brought forth plants of the same kind, and God then rested from creation on the 7th day. I have watched many seeds being planted and watched day by day. It always took many days before anything sprouted that even could be seen. Then it was months for the plants to mature. I have seen trees that are over 2000 years old and they are still growing. I have also seen land that was made bare and it took the wild plants decades for the plants to cover that land again. Almost all of the plants we now have on this earth take two things to grow. They take the light of the sun and they also take much time. If what you say is true, that God had the earth produce plants that grew WITHOUT the sun and were more INSTANT plants, then where are the plants that came from their seeds now. Also were did the plants, that take the light of the sun and time, come from since there would have been none of those kind produced on the 3rd day without the sun. God is sovereign, but he does not do anything, ie He can not lie or do anything unrighteous. If we are to obey the law of God, we can be sure that God always obeys His own laws. God in His great mercy for us has left us more than one account. God had mercy for our great ignorance and the fact that none of us are very smart. The whole creation of God declares the glory of God. We have the whole creation that God created. The creation is not our enemy, for it is a gift from God. The creation also testifies to the Truth. I did not cover but one point of yours because of the limitation of words. But if you are interested in what I perceive the Lord Jesus has shown me about the creation of Sun, I will post more about it. None of us can be sure about our walk in faith. We can only walk and trust Jesus to guide and direct our path. Grace to you. - Lou Newton
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Very Well Said...
| Posted On: 10/08/09 03:20:15 PM |
Age 62, OR |
More reasons not to stray from the plain meaning of the text here ==>> "The Evolution Of Christianity" http://www.lamblion.us/2009/10/evolution-of-christianity.html - Illegitimi non carborundum and bless you. Dan RN
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Simplicity
| Posted On: 10/08/09 09:20:44 AM |
Age 49, MO |
When the fullness of time came, Jesus was born of a virgin. When the number of Saints is completed, Jesus will come again. If Jesus created ALL things in 144 hours, why does he have to WAIT for anything? Friend, Jesus operates in the reality that is truth (IE: Reality is CHRIST), why is it that we operate in a reality of our own understanding and forsake the testimony of truth displayed in creation? It is these kind of things that make us look ignorant to the unsaved. Just simple questions from a simple man. Blessing God. John
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Reality- Truth
| Posted On: 10/08/09 09:18:08 AM |
Age 49, MO |
When the fullness of time came, Jesus was born of a virgin. When the number of Saints is completed, Jesus will come again. If Jesus created ALL things in 144 hours, why does he have to WAIT for anything? Friend, Jesus operates in the reality that is truth (IE: Reality is CHRIST), why is it that we operate in a reality of our own understanding? Blessing God. John
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ALL KINDS OF DAYS HAVE AN EVENING AND A MORNING
| Posted On: 10/08/09 12:51:59 AM |
Age 66, OH |
No matter how God uses the word "day" in the scriptures, there is the "dawning of a new day" and the evening or the end of a "day". The fact that God says there was evening and there was morning does not indicate what meaning of the word "day" God is using. There was the dawning of my dads day and there was the evening of my dads day. But my dads day is not a solar earth day but a mans lifetime. I do not object to how a person interprets Gen 1, but I do say that we should all ash the Lord Jesus about the interpretation and not decide for ourselves. I would also say that to not judge one another is far more important that how we interpret Gen 1. - Lou Newton
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JESUS ALWAYS SPOKE IN PARABLES
| Posted On: 10/08/09 12:33:41 AM |
Age 66, OH |
Think about what you are saying ! My point was about the 1st day only, any child can understand that from evening to morning is but 12 hours if we are speaking of a solar day here on the earth. A 24 hour day is from evening to the next evening. But God clearly says that evening is the darkness and morning is the light. God is simply saying that there was darkness and he made it light for life. No mere man can prove one way or another which way the Author means for these words to be taken. No mere man can understand the meaning of scripture. It is only by asking The Lord Jesus and hearing from Him that we can understand. You can believe as you desire and I will believe what the Lord Jesus has shown me in the Holy Scriptures. Have you asked The Lord Jesus about the meaning of Gen 1. Does not the Lord promise that if we ask Him we will receive. Are you saying that the promise of the Lord is not true. Jesus said beware the yeast of the pharisees and the disciples thought Jesus was speaking of the yeast in bread. But when they asked Jesus about this, he explained that He was speaking of the teachings of the pharisees. Jesus made it clear that He never spoke in literal terms but ALWAYS spoke in parables. Grace to you. - Lou Newton
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A Very Powerful Accusation!
| Posted On: 10/07/09 10:48:55 PM |
Age 62, OR |
> "It just seems to me to be an area of pride... John" - That's a very powerful accusation, John! I find your post very interesting in that you "read" so much into what David said, rather than comprehending what he did say... When a notable TV personality [JVI] whom, BTW, is viewed by millions, links another notable Bible Scholar to a doctrine that he does not subscribe to, and he "started getting a flurry of calls and emails", it is perfectly correct, acceptable, and essential to set the record straight as quickly as possible. In doing so, he makes NO CLAIM that his belief & understanding is "Correct in ALL things", but rather, he logically lays out **his** argument of what **he** sees wrong with such a doctrine. Maybe you should try it sometime... I could & should ask you the same of your assessment: "Are you positive your views are correct? Correct in ALL things?" - And what human being could ever be? You have lined this up very carefully to make a bad point. If you disagree in doctrine, argue it clearly! Don't 'intimate' to assassinate character! At your age you should know better - shame on you, John!
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Much reading into the text
| Posted On: 10/07/09 10:41:00 PM |
Age 49, AL |
Lou - With all due respect, it appears that you are the one reading into the text what is clearly not there. A plain reading of the text is quite clear that it refers to a 24 hour day. Your definitions of the word "day" in English is irrelevant since the text was initially in Hebrew. Furthermore, since in the Hebrew ("yom"), whenever it is modified by a number, or another modifier like day, night, morning, evening, etc. it always has the same meaning - a 24-hour day. Desiring it to be different is again irrelevant to what actually is written. Additionally, you appear to be the one who is applying different meanings to the word day in its context of Genesis 1; the text is quite clear and means what it says. In fact, it requires no interpretation to understand. Again, you are grasping at explanations to support your opinion of the word day meaning something other than a 24-hour day when the text clearly says otherwise. David Reagan is not incorrect in his understanding; rather, your interpretation is applying inconsistent hermeneutics to the word and the context. The ones who have not read the account with accuracy are the ones who apply meaning that does not exist in the passage. We are warned about adding to God's words such as those who add time or distort meaning (Proverbs 30:6). Another error in your discourse is that Augustine didn’t argue for millions of years for the days of creation as is the common argument today. Actually, Augustine interpreted Genesis 1 allegorically, insisting the six days were a symbolic presentation of God’s creation in one instant. This interpretation does not support any Gap Theory or other long ages theory, rather realizes that God could have created everything instantaneously, instead of taking 6 days. However, this interpretation is likewise inconsistent with what the Bible tells us quite plainly. In regards to the morning and evening argument you have put forth, the Jewish standard would be to ascribe 12 hours to the morning and 12 hours to the evening. This makes the 24 hour day described in Genesis 1. Claiming it can not be 24 hours is disingenuous at best because you are changing the text to say morning to evening; the text actually says "morning AND evening" adding the two together. Any reader of the Hebrew would clearly understand it to be a 24 hour period, not just the daylight hours. Likewise, your false claim that many of the early church fathers believed in an old earth is simply false. They mostly believed it couldn't have taken God that long to create everything, so they changed the plainly written historical text to assume incorrectly that is was allegorical. In fact, up until the 19th century, the majority of important church figures believed in the literal reading of six 24-hour days. Finally, although much more could be written to easily discount your tired arguments that many others have raised before unsuccessfully, it is quite clear that the Bible never promotes an earth-centric philosophy. It was actually scientists who promoted such ideas that the church accepted dogmatically. Thus, the fallibility of man within the church was more due to acceptance of ideas from outside the church rather than development of ideas within the Bible. Since the sun wasn't created until day 4, it is not even rational to assume the sun was the center of the universe. However, recent scientific observation of space has come to realize that our solar system is relatively near the center of the universe. Hmm; quite interesting I would say, even though it is irrelevant to what God did. Clearly, man's shortcomings and failures in applying incorrect beliefs does not change the true Biblical words. Genesis 1 actually says what it means and means what it says, quite clearly I would add. To apply twisted interpretations not in the clear reading of the text is an injustice to God. I, too, have prayed about understanding the meaning of His Word. My answer from God is to believe His word, not my own opinion or that of other fallible humans. Thus, I'll stick to God's word, which tells me exactly what He did...in 6 days no less.
Blessings.
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David:
| Posted On: 10/07/09 01:32:58 PM |
Age 49, MO |
I find it interesting that you have gone to such great lengths to correct an error in what others may think of you. Are you positive your views are correct? Correct in ALL things? It just seems to me to be an area of pride... John
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Not an argument
| Posted On: 10/07/09 01:31:51 PM |
Age 22, OH |
TX 36: You're just contradicting what Lou says. You don't actually make an argument. Essentially, your post is saying: "You're wrong because these people say you are." And besides that any Greek scholar (worth his salt) looking at the sentence structure of Jesus's statement "beware of the yeast of the pharisees" will tell you Jesus is OBVIOUSLY talking about yeast. I mean it says so right there in plain Greek. And yet, we can see that by taking this out of context we don't understand the meaning of it at all. Because Jesus really isn't talking about yeast. So regardless of what the scholars say we still have to take it in context and realize that non-literal meanings do in-fact exist. But this is all besides the point because you can take the word yom to mean literally something other than a 24 hour day. ~Isaac N~
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