WHat you decide to believe
| Posted On: 10/26/09 11:35:23 PM |
Age 70, CA |
It's too bad that some people don't read the bible and consider it to be the truth. It's a matter of what you decide to believe based on your experience and opinion rather than what the bible says. The words of Jesus are the very heart of the Christian gospel - that's what Christianity is all about and it includes social justice. When people learn to "love your neighbor as yourslef" - the rest is easy
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Self is always sin
| Posted On: 10/12/09 07:30:56 AM |
Age 49, MO |
The problem is that the Conservative church is of the world and wants to live in it. The Emergent church wants to change the world, to make it more loving and tolerant. Both views are wrong, for both views are of selfish motives. One spites the world as heathen and the other spites Jesus as Lord. One follows their head, and the other follows their heart. Yet, true Christianity is only achieved by forsaking self and following Christ. We don't want to follow Christ because to do so would make our schemes, plans, desires, pointless. We don't want to say: Yes Lord, send me, we want to say: Here am I lord, and this is what I'm doing for you... take it or leave it. John
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Americanism is NOT Capitalism
| Posted On: 10/12/09 07:15:12 AM |
Age 49, MO |
Friend: Jesus came to set the captives free. Capitalism is freedom, freedom to succeed and also freedom to fail. Failure is an opportunity to try again. Socialism is slavery since there will always be those who rule over us. One enslaved cannot succeed and cannot fail, he has already failed and will not have opportunity to try again, he will be "re-educated" or further enslaved. Socialism has failed where ever its been tried. Don't confuse Americanism with Capitalism, there is MUCH wrong with America today. John
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the hiker
| Posted On: 10/10/09 07:03:35 PM |
Age 62, OH |
Thank you for this response; Jesus Himself said that in the latter days many would be offended because of Him and Paul taught that in the end times many would have itchy ears that only wanted to hear what they wanted. I believe the important issue is Balance--we are to walk in The Spirit and none can walk without balance. We, as the Body of Christ must listen to The Head and learn to think again and to search The Scripture as the Bereans did.
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Selective I nterpretation
| Posted On: 10/09/09 05:08:50 PM |
Age 57, CANADA |
I wonder of this is what we were warned about when we were told that the devil quotes scripture out of context to further his aims. I seem to recall this in the bible but can't recall the reference however; it's not all about me and, perhaps, someone can provide it.
This all seems to be choosing the parts that are comfortable and sweeping away responsibilities which require work. Somebody worked to raise us but, it was almost certainly uncomfortable, and there are those who sweep away discomfort. Supporting the deadheads whose work was token is the sort of thing that plugged up the soviet system and led to it's collapse. I am all in favour of looking after widows and orphans in need as advised in James 1:27 however, giving all the rewards of those who produce (regardless of their degree of productivity) seems to be based on a lie which protects people from the consequences of their actions and the resulting learning experience.
As for Ghandi - it seems to me that this quote of his could best be aimed at "red letter Christians" regardless of his intent. He wasn't a productive working man and was willing to live like a pauper but, suffered and worked to make his part of the world better. I can't imagine him supporting people who kill at all and who especially those who do so to sweep away the future generation so that they can wallow in comfort.
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sheep and goats?
| Posted On: 10/09/09 07:19:58 AM |
Age 26, MI |
Its astounding to me that one would make reference to the sheep and the goats for applauding the author of this article and saying those so-called red letter Christians will be going to hell. Perhaps we should re-read who the sheep, and who the goats are? Every time I read things like this article and its feedback, I realize that my understanding of Christ and His Kingdom is so radically different...that my reading of the bible is so radically different, that I'm just not in communion with ya'll. I know intellectual arguments do no convincing with matters of the heart and matters of worldview. On that day, may God have mercy on us all!
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JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY
| Posted On: 10/08/09 08:42:14 PM |
Age 66, OH |
Dear friend, when God called Abraham to a land near Jerusalem ( which is the city of The great King), was not God calling Abraham to Himself (God).When the Bible says that God appeared to Abraham was that not The great King that appeared to Him. Jerusalem is also the city God. Jesus was this Great King that appeared to Abraham. Look at Isaiah 9: when it speaks of the child that God will call Jesus: 6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a son is given,
and the government is on his shoulder.
And he (God) shall call his name (the child Jesus),
Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Or look at Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen (the Servant is The Man Jesus),
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.( God is the Servant Jesus)
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior. - Jesus is The One and Only God Almighty. - Grace to you. - Lou Newton
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Here, Here
| Posted On: 10/08/09 04:45:33 PM |
Age 21, MO |
Preach it! I fully agree with your point about the logical jumps. There are so many assumed positions that it's hard to accept most of the conclusions. Not that Markell has absolutely nothing good to say, but it takes a ton of critical thinking to sift through all the presuppositions.
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Thank you
| Posted On: 10/08/09 03:11:43 PM |
Age 21, MO |
Thank you for at least attempting to strike a balanced view, unlike so many others. Why must we assume that social justice and evangelism are antithetical? Can't the two co-exist? Didn't Paul base his teachings by observing Jesus' words and works?
Or to ask other questions: Why do we automatically assume that America or Israel are above "blame"? Does seeking to relieve people of oppression and suffering physically automatically make someone a "Marxist"? What if the reason these Christians never talk about the Halocaust or Stalin is because everyone knows those things were wrong? Maybe they choose to focus on more subversive sins, like materialism.
In the end, we need to suspend judgment and ask if is is possible that we are wrong. Do we hold presuppositions that the Bible might disagree with? I even have to force myself to this position. While I strongly disagree with most of what Jan Markell says, by suspending judgment I was still able to find a few good points of caution. I pray that the church will wake up, restore civility, and actually take on the mind of humility.
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It's hard to take seriously when...
| Posted On: 10/08/09 02:35:07 PM |
Age 32, TX |
there are such huge logical leaps. To say that, "In those red letters, Jesus calls us away from the consumerist values that dominate contemporary American consciousness," translates neatly into "he loathes capitalism..." is a HUGE stretch that isn't accurate. I think it's just as theologically fallacious to say that Jesus would advocate capitalism as to say that he would advocate socialism. Jesus didn't come to institute an economic system, he came to establish a Kingdom where Father owns the cattle on 1000 hills and will provide for all through His Church.
While the list you cited (especially McLaren, imho) go too far in many (even most) respects, is it so far off base that we return to the teachings of Jesus? Is the point to defend capitalism or is the point to see what Jesus said and model our lives after it. As a biblical Christian, I'm able to discuss God's heart for a homosexual without Paul's reference to it, or Leviticus' reference either. I talk about it by using John 4.
Prooftexting is a Pharisaical practice, and if Paul talked about it, then my guess is that we can find it supported in Christs teachings. McLaren (or any of those) don't propose stripping the teachings of Paul, they simply advocate elevating the teachings of Jesus.
Unfortunately, though, this article loses credibility by going into attack mode right off the bat by asserting things that aren't true.
Worldview issues are MAJOR problem in the church. But worldview issues aren't 'informational' in nature. They're a lot deeper than that. Arguing alone doesn't convince people, and it very well may turn them off.
As a conservative evangelical pastor and a father of two small children, this did not leave me with a good taste in my mouth. I apologize if I've offended in any way, and I look forward to hearing any responses. I probably won't be able to check back here, but I'd love to get your e-mail responses if I've offended in any way.
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Oh please grow up...
| Posted On: 10/08/09 02:03:02 PM |
Age 55, FL |
I CORINTHIANS
1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no
divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the
same mind and in the same judgment.
1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them
which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among
you.
1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of
Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized
in the name of Paul?
1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know
not whether I baptized any other.
1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not
with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of
none effect.
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Red Letter Christians
| Posted On: 10/08/09 10:11:53 AM |
Age 44, FL |
Neo Marxist/Socialist "Christians" apply the mandates of Christ and the gospel to civil government. Civil Government operates from a position of power and coercion and exists to punish evil-doers, primarily. Jesus was not speaking to Civil Government but to those that would follow Him, the "called out" ones. It's convenient for them to claim "Jesus" as the basis for Government Social Programs, but this same Jesus also said "turn the other cheek," and “him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also,” etc. Was this a prescription for our system of jurisprudence? The Christianity we see now in a Barak Obama and others – Liberation Theology – is Marxism expressed in Christian terminology. Jesus is not the substitutionary sin-bearer for man, but is a “liberator” from those that oppress the masses: corporations, those that own property, control resources and production, and the wealthy in general. All the tenets of Biblical Christianity are removed from their rightful place and applied to the civil governments of unregenerate man, so that - 1. Inequality is Sin. 2. Justice is the masses being liberated from those who have wealth and control industry (except for the government!) and have all their needs met. 3. Evangelism is replaced by Activism (community organizing, etc.) 4. Heaven is an earthly, brotherhood of man utopia under the rule of…5. The State as god. Once a person understands the worldview of the Christian Left, then the comments by Jeremiah Wright (“God ----America”), Barak Obama (“I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth" “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States”), and Michelle Obama (“for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country”) make sense. They are not some accidental, racist, or rhetorical slips of the tongue - they exist with a specific context and reflect the theological template held by each.
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An eye for an eye...
| Posted On: 10/08/09 08:16:09 AM |
Age 63, MO |
God's purpose behind this law was an expression of mercy; not vengeance. It was given to judges so they would make the punishment fit the crime. It was not a guide for personal revenge. Jesus sought to emphasize this in these verses. Defense against aggression, personal or national, is not the same thing as repaying evil with evil. I believe that God would have us protect ourselves and our families from evil persons. Defense is something we do DURING an act of evil. Vengeance is something we might do AFTER the act. George Cancilla
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Capitalism
| Posted On: 10/08/09 06:27:55 AM |
Age 63, MO |
Capitalism is simply the use of "capital" or some form of "money" to facilitate the trade of goods and services. Marxists and socialists use "capital" in their ideologies. God does not have a problem with the use of "capital" or some form of money. He has a problem with the LOVE of it. (1 Timothy 6:10). George Cancilla
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Liberal Theology
| Posted On: 10/07/09 10:49:22 PM |
Age 38, AK |
Francis Schaeffer said it best in A Christian Manifesto. He said that liberal theology is nothing more than secular humanism in religious terms. For the liberal theologian will inevitably come down on the side of the secular humanist.
Secular humanism subordinates the individual to the almighty State, and so does the liberal theologian. The social justice gospel is the moral code for them both and is heretical. Both the secular humanist and the liberal theologian worship the creation rather than the Creator. This fact is evident in the environmentalist religion tenets they dogmatically adhere to.
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A Pacifist/anarchist's Misplaced allegiance
| Posted On: 10/07/09 10:38:02 PM |
Age 38, AK |
First of all, Jesus is God. I don't worship the "God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus." I worship Jesus.
Secondly, Jesus did not espouse no allegiance to the civil authorities. Jesus stated that we ought to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. God instituted nation-states. I am very thankful for the wonderful nation God gave me to live in. The best nation the world has ever seen. Unlike you, I will obey God by obeying my nation-state's laws.
Thirdly, marxism is an ungodly economic system that violates God's principles and commandments. Marxism steals the earned wealth of citizens to promote envy and encourage sloth in others.
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I am a Red Letter Christian
| Posted On: 10/07/09 09:37:47 PM |
Age 61, MN |
I am shocked to see the number of "Christians" critizing what Jesus said (in red letters in some Bibles) in the New Testament or suggesting that the words of the apostles equal that of what Jesus said. If we Christians just followed the red letters of Jesus in Matthew 5-7, the world would be transformed. It might even influence our views on the poor, immigrants, taxes, military exploits, widows, those with out health care, etc. We might even get concerned about what Jesus has called us to do---tell the lost about a Jesus that changes lives. We all ought to read the book, RED LETTER CHRISTIANS, written by Tony Campola.
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Capitalist/Pacifist/Anarchist
| Posted On: 10/07/09 08:25:55 PM |
Age 72, TN |
I am a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth, and a laissez-faire capitalist, a pacifist and an anarchist. My capitalism, pacifism and anarchism all flow logically under the guidance of his spirit from the wisdom in the words and deeds of Jesus. Indeed, my studies of the Bible and economics lead me to believe that the principles Jesus espoused demand these positions. It is my observation that many Christians, although they worship the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus, elevate their native nation-state to a super-human position, which, if it does not replace the Lord God as the Marxist would have it, it certainly does provide Him with competition.
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Balance analysis in this area is necessary
| Posted On: 10/07/09 06:33:29 PM |
Age 43, TX |
The Bible never teaches egalitarian redestribution or even with regard to taxes (tithing). Several types of professions in the OT times were even not required to tithe.
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Oh Please...Just grow up! Read Lewis and Chesterton
| Posted On: 10/07/09 03:21:34 PM |
Age 57, IN |
You people really scare me...You too claim to be follower of Christ, like the red letter Christians? Then Read them. C.S. Lewis, for Protestants, and Chesterton, for Catholics BOTH stated in their classic books, "Mere Christanity" and "Orthodoxy" respectively that
if Christanity actually influenced government as the N.T. prescribes that government would have to be described as leftest.
THATS the problem. The church jumped in bed with the rightwing of the GOP (not GOD)and during the Bush years ( A Christian President? really?)our government began to look very fascist with the Patriot act suspending our Constutional rights. A famous author once said that when Fascism comes to America it will as a Cross draped in a Flag.
If you can't understand issues for adults don't try to discuss them (C.S. LEWIS)
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