Who are "you" in Matthew 24?
| Posted On: 08/09/09 08:32:49 PM |
Age 45, MS |
The disciples asked Jesus about the end of the age in Matthew 24 in a two-part question. As I understand Jesus' answer about the end of the age, He was telling His followers what would be done to them (His followers).
It is true that the wrath of man and wrath and Satan are still under God's sovereign control. Just as today Jesus' followers are horribly persecuted and martyred in many areas of the world under the wrath of Satan and godless men. And the Church -- the body of Christ -- is what is being tormented. Since it happens right this moment, why does the Church have to be raptured before it happens at the end of the age?
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Straw Man
| Posted On: 08/09/09 08:00:48 PM |
Age 33, PA |
"Can an argument be made for placing the Rapture near the end of the Tribulation?
Some have tried to do this, arguing that the wrath of God is not poured out until the end of the Tribulation. This is concept is called the "pre-wrath Rapture."
I agree with everything this guy says! Except for his conclusion. His argument that the "wrath of God" is poured out during the entire tribulation is argued well. I agree with him whole-heartedly. However that has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. His logic goes like this. Some believe that God will rapture His people at the end of trib. and those people say that then God will pour out all His wrath. "I've proven that the "wrath of God" occurs across the whole trib. Therefore the rapture doesn't take place at the end of the trib.". His points address the timing of God's wrath and that is what he proves, not the timing of the rapture. This is what you call a "straw man" in debate. He sets up two target, then knocks one down, and says he knocked down both. To bad it's not the real target it's only something the author or speaker associated with it.
No matter what side of the issue we as believers fall on we should make sure are arguments are sound and intellectually honest. I am not accusing the author I'm sure he's a holier man than I am. I'm only saying we need to examine ourselves to see if the arguments we use really prove our point. God bless you Brannon, thanks for all you do to keep the "Body" informed.
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JESUS SAYS THE UNRIGHTEOUS ARE TAKEN AWAY FIRST
| Posted On: 08/08/09 11:46:53 AM |
Age 65, OH |
David you say, "One final problem with the pre-wrath concept of the Rapture is that it disputes the fact that there is no purpose for the Church being in the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel, a time devoted to God accomplishing His purposes among the Jewish people, not the Church." Have you been watching the church in this nation and the rest of the world. The church needs the discipline of God equally as much as the Jews to bring it to The Lordship of Jesus Christ. - There are many scriptures that show that the harvesting of the saints is at the end and NOT before. Jesus said it would be as in the days of Noah. Did Noah go through the flood or was he taken away before the flood. Noah went through the flood and God saved him by the ark that he had built. Christians will be saved in the tribulation by the ark "of the trust in Christ" that they have allowed to be built by the grace of God. Noah had to do as God commanded him and build an ark or he would have died with all the rest. Noah had to trust in the ark or die. - The 7 trumpets are after the 7 seals and the 7th is the last trumpet to be sounded and is right before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and His reign on this earth. The 1st trumpet can not be the last any more than the 6th trumpet can be the last trumpet. No trumpet that is sounded BEFORE the 7th trumpet can be the last trumpet. Now look what the Holy Spirit tells us by the pen of Paul. 1 Cor 15:50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. The rapture is after the 7th trumpet. - Jesus also makes this clear in the parable of the wheat and tares. Jesus says that the harvest is THE END OF THE AGE and Jesus also says, 30Let both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST. At that time I will tell the harvesters: FIRST COLLECT THE WEEDS and tie them in bundles to be burned; THEN GATHER THE WHEAT and bring it into my barn.' " - Jesus clearly tells us that the rapture will be after the unrighteous are taken away. Everyone should build an Ark for the flood is coming. Those who are truly in the Ark of Jesus Christ need not fear for they will be saved from the wrath of God. Those that refuse to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and NOTHING else will all perish. - Lou Newton
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The Wrath of God is tied up in Satan
| Posted On: 08/08/09 07:22:21 AM |
Age 62, MO |
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33). Jesus spoke these words as if to say that there would be tribulation in the world for all time for all people until His return, but in Him all could find peace. There is no chronological time in the book of Revelation. There is only God's time: "kairos" as opposed to "chronos." Trumpets and bowls are continuously poured out over the entire church age. For the believers, these seals, trumpets, and bowls are judgment to salvation. For the unbelievers, they are judgment to damnation. The "beasts" of Revelation do not just rise up once out the "sea" and the "earth," but are continuously rising. After the crucifixion and ascension of Jesus Christ, there is no more dealing separately with Jews and Gentiles. Daniel's 70th week is theologically contrived nonsense. The very beginning of the book of Job shows us that God's wrath is tied up in Satan, but that He has complete control over Satan. With repentance and complete faith in Christ, we too have control and victory over Satan. George Cancilla
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