Hi John,
| Posted On: 05/14/09 08:04:33 PM |
Age 41, NH |
Actually, I wasn't writing for your response, in fact it never occurred to me that you would find something that struck a nerve with you.
1. I was speaking in the general sense and not specifically about any person but the point of country club or other usually smart remarks is that most of the time, they are used to make fun of, not edify or help to correct.
2. If a church is a country club than it isn't the Church so it matters not if it is a country or a strip club because it isn't part of His bride.
3. Very few of us would be using the term country club (maybe you are one of the chosen few) in a constructive way. Most of the time it is used to make fun or in an attempt to demean, that is not edification, that is gratification.
4. It is not a sign of maturity to be rude when not being rude can yield the same results. That is a sign of immaturity plain and simple.
5. To say that Scripture does not make it clear that He has provided us with elders, teachers, deacons, pastors (and others) in order to serve Him, edify the body and to teach and lead the flock is to ignore the obvious meaning of those passages that exhort us to listen and to be taught by those in those positions. If we didn't need teachers, He wouldn't have given us teachers specifically. If we didn't need shepherding (guidance and correction as well as being found when we go astray then He wouldn't have provided pastors. To say that this isn't true and that we are not expected to do these things is to throw out about 25% of the NT books (the Timothy letters, Titus, the letters to the Corinthians among others).
6. Levity is wonderful and I am accused of using it more liberally than most but levity is not an excuse for name calling or just thinking one is being witty when one is acting in a way that does not edify.
7. Experience has shown me that those who take offense to the above biblical teachings (expressed in non- God-breathed words but found in Scripture nonetheless) usually (but not always) are guilty of those offenses and feel their pride bruised. If this is not you John, then you should feel no need to defend yourself but, if by chance your words are meant to gratify your own need to insult, offend or demean than you would have to deal with God about your spirit. I judge not because I know you not except through these pages and infrequently at best.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
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social clubs
| Posted On: 05/12/09 01:02:02 PM |
Age 41, CA |
Most successful church organizations have become successful social clubs. People will attend these types of local churches only if the Bible is taught AND a lot of cool people attend, and there are a lot of fun activities to do -- and a fun coffee/deli right next to the church building. Otherwise, just teaching the Bible is dry. :)
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Jim, I disagree...
| Posted On: 05/11/09 08:46:36 AM |
Age 48, MO |
Hey Jim: I would like to take issue with a couple of the points you've made, you knew I would! And yes, it's in love that I take issue. Though levity may be used, it doesn't imply rudeness when answering points others have used. It is not rude to illustrate obsurdity by being obsurd. It is not rude to take points others have made to their logical conclusion. It is not rude to call a country club church a country club. It is only determinded rude by those who are being offended because their toes are being stepped on. Second, I disagree that Christ has given us us preachers and teachers because he hasn't provided us all the steps. Christ simply said "Go sin no more and follow me." I think those two steps sums it up don't you? Biblically pastors and teachers are servants, but in the church culture they are paid organizational CEO's. Please explain to me the biblical basis for this and how a CEO can be a servant? John
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You won't like this
| Posted On: 05/10/09 05:49:14 AM |
Age 46, PA |
There is ONE head of the body of Christ, men who want to supplant Him are called antichrists (replacement Christ). Where in the world did the ALL important head position of pastor come from, it's only mentioned ONCE in the scriptures? The position is a fraud and 99% of men who occupy them are wicked so don't be supprised at evil behavior. If you are looking for a man to head your assembly you are not right!
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Are pastors willing to learn?
| Posted On: 05/09/09 08:10:52 PM |
Age 61, AR |
A pastor that opens his house up to the church members and LISTENS TO THEM is a rarity. Most mainline pastors that I've known think they know all the answers and can't figure out why their churches are dying.
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Thank You Jim
| Posted On: 05/09/09 02:51:20 PM |
Age 41, NH |
Thanks for the good article Mr. Eliff. Many very good points and as we all know (or should know) there are always points left on the table because we can't list them all.
Some points that you could have added to this article (but was summed up in your many points are the people who think that being rude is correction (it isn't), trash talking (calling church organizations clubs [some are, some aren't]) and despising His people as they gather as He commanded, and thinking that the Spirit will give us all the answers and ignoring the fact that God gave us teachers, preachers, etc because He doesn't provide all the steps to walk this path.
But other than those points being missed, I think your article was very good.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
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Close...but not quite
| Posted On: 05/08/09 08:43:57 AM |
Age 48, MO |
Well...Jim, I see the points you were making but I think you have missed the larger problem. The problem is that the church has left its first love. The church is no longer a cohesive body serving the head (Christ), but rather a social group that mimics society. We mimic pagan rituals, fad theology, marketing strategies, sensory worship, pressured inclusivness, and blessing oriented purpose. Indeed the focus of church, as your article unintentionally pointed out, is the church. I don't see Christ honoring that. John
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Your only half correct
| Posted On: 05/08/09 08:39:21 AM |
Age 34, WI |
In reply to your article, I must say that your correct. But only half way. In the church that I belong to, we have a percieved problem of being legalistic. My pastor speaks about things like, "no sex till marriage, hell, holy living, glorifying
God, homosexuality, etc, etc." I guess we will never see church growth (by numbers) as
long as he speaks biblical truth. Most people seek liberal, non-Holy types of churches. You know, the "have it your way"
christianity. I believe once they enter into
a church that does not teach these things, after a while, they will die off, because there were no seeds being planted. Thus they have no root. So again, your are correct, but only half-way.
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However ~
| Posted On: 05/08/09 07:40:06 AM |
Age 53, OH |
This article has many good points - but it entirely ignores the case where the Pastor himself is part of the problem, and the elders and deacons are lacking in spiritual discernment. A fairly new Christian lady rented a house to this pastor - the lease clearly stated "no cats in the house", and there was a discussion between them of other areas on the property where cats could be kept (barn, garage, etc.) as this man bred cats as a hobby. When he moved out, this dear lady called me in TEARS - the pastor had, in fact, kept cats in the house and their urine and claws had caused considerable damage to the house. Her calls to him were unanswered - that was over a year ago, and he has not repented nor attempted to make things right with his former landlord. She has forgiven him - but he doesn't know it, because he has yet to return those phone calls from a year ago. There have been other dishonest dealings by this pastor - he remains unrepentant. This man has been with us for only 3 years, but he has been a pastor for over 30. He is a very personable man, and everyone likes him. But these and other disturbing things keep happening. Several families are seriously considering leaving the church because of it. I am unsure whether to speak with him or with the elders - or first him, and then the elders. But I believe ignoring these issues only allows the cancer to grow. Please pray for us to speak the truth in love to this man, so that all may be brought back to the Lord.
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Been there done that
| Posted On: 05/08/09 12:08:41 AM |
Age 37, CANADA |
I have been do hundreds of hours of church growth seminars and have heard the same song different tune. And the remedy always starts with the importance of prayer followed by the seven steps to church health. If we really believed in prayer (talking to God and hearing from God) why do we need the seven steps? Can't God tell us what needs to happen? Does not the seven step solution rob the leadership and the congregation of seeking their own answers from God?
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The Church?
| Posted On: 05/07/09 05:30:38 AM |
Age 46, PA |
Do you mean that social club of mostly legacy (unregenerate) people who meet on Sunday to do a religous ritual based on the Bible,,,that's not the church? Those things lose customers for 2 reason, 1. The club doesn't provide the "right" type of entertainment. 2. Truley born-again people die on the vine and leave to see if they can find life somewhere else. The "church" is ONLY those that He has called, not man and they are doing fine.
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Genuine hospitality is the key
| Posted On: 05/06/09 08:56:20 PM |
Age 62, MO |
The pastor who sincerely wants to have the congregation over to his house and provide covered dish meals for other occasions, is going to be more effective in communicating the Scriptural messages. These kind of gatherings allow for dialogue on doctrine to help clarify. These kind of gatherings make for more accountability and encouragement. George Cancilla
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A healthy church
| Posted On: 05/06/09 05:10:08 PM |
Age 55, OR |
A wonderful article. As I read, I am happy to state our church is growing. We have a pastor who preaches the Word. This is vital.
We have saints who are servants. This is vital.
Thank you for this very important article.
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