"Huh" is right...
| Posted On: 03/19/09 05:34:10 PM |
Age 30, MD |
What exactly are you saying? And yes, it *does* matter, especially when a cultist comes knocking on your door trying to convert you to their false teachings.
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a couple questions
| Posted On: 02/06/09 08:29:47 AM |
Age 50, MI |
1.) We know that only the righteous will get eternal life, right? Then if someone is "eternally tormented" then have they not received "eternal life" too? Think of the eternal fire being eternal (for Satan and His angels ... since they are not flesh). But the rest of those who followed him? Consumed by the eternal fire.
2.) If all who die before judgement day are in a separate place "waiting", then they must be all together. To say that the wicked are in a separate place waiting for judgment and the righteous are in a different place waiting as well ... then they have been judged already. We know that Judgment day has not yet come.
3.) We must look at who we are. We are but dust formed by YHVH Himself. All who are alive today (the wicked and the righteous) are only because of the breath of the Creator. When anyone dies, it is that breath that is taken away. Could Adam have lived without it? Could anyone live without the breath of YHVH? Of course not. Same with those who die and wait for resurrection ... they simply have the switch turned off and are waiting for judgement when YHVH will give them their breath and be judged. The wicked will simply be tossed into the eternal fire and be consumed (the second death) and the rest of us will be glorified with Him (receiving eternal life for we have eaten of the Tree).
This is just how I see it as I try to make the entire Scripture one Word. Good stuff and studies. That is what pleases YHVH to see us do what we are doing in love.
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Friend
| Posted On: 02/05/09 08:44:46 AM |
Age 48, MO |
Friend: Interesting theory. However, the soul is not the Spirit. All dream but the unsaved are Spiritually dead so when they dream shouldn't they dream of hell? When they die they go to hell. Hell is a real place of eternal torment in which they live.
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The soul does not sleep
| Posted On: 02/02/09 12:38:36 AM |
Age 57, FL |
There are a few scriptures which tell us of this. One of the scriptures many know is when on the tree, our Messiah said to one of the thieves, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise." We know what and where Y'shua went upon his resurrection. When Mary went to the grave to look for him, he said "touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father." I do not believe anyone is in heaven yet. Not until the end and the judgement comes, the separation of the 'sheep and the goats'. I believe, that there are two places, yes. Possibly 3.
One is Tartaros where 'some' of the fallen angels are (see Enoch) whether those who did not follow and obey our Messiah are there, I cannot say. However, if there will be a separation at the end, then what of the souls now? Yes, there is a Paradise, a holding place until the return of our Master. If one would question about Enoch, then why in the book of Jude (Judah) would he speak of these things? All of the apostles (Talmidim) knew about these things because they were taught them by Y'shua.
If while we are alive now, as we see, our spirit makes us to move and have our being. If our spirit was not in us now, we would be dead, not moving. Our flesh is part of the earth and all our dna. Our spirit is a part of Him, Elohim, the Father who breathed life into us, and so.....we shall not sleep, but the bodies in the ground, which will be changed when the time comes... the words of our LORD say that in the end, there will be the separation of the sheep and the goats, wheat and the tares...etc. in order for the judgement to begin on those who will be judged.
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The Human Soul
| Posted On: 02/01/09 01:01:35 PM |
Age 84, AZ |
It is important for readers to know that I have no personal involvement with any religion or cult. If my theory is true, it applies to all humans regardless of their beliefs.
Most, if not all humans, dream. When a dream occurs the body remains in the location it was in when the dream started. During a dream the event seems so real that it is as though one’s total being including the body is present. My theory is that when the body dies, the same spirit that moved from your body during a dream is the same spirit that is now called your soul and it moves from your dieing body into eternity. It will seem as though your total being is present including your body. For those who believe in the bible, my theory helps to explain the feelings that await those who’s spirit arrive in either heaven or hell. It will seem like your body is there with you.
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(sorry to take your time) the conclusion on death.
| Posted On: 02/01/09 11:02:41 AM |
Age 50, MI |
Part IV (continued)
o Paul knew that he would not get his reward upon death, but at the second coming: “For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure (death). I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day – and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for His appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:6-8)
• Now, when we see passages like 2 Corinthians 5:8 … “We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” we know that there is more to it. For Paul surely knew, for he knew the Old Testament, that his next waking moment would be in the resurrection, and it would seem as though it had just happened, not 2,000 or more years later. But compared to eternity, it is but a moment. It may seem like a long time, but actually, even the Lord says it is soon or quick (as if 2,000 or more years has not just gone by) … “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.” (Revelation 22:12) Can you imagine how you will feel if you have no gifts to lay at the feet of the Son of God? You would be there with Him on “that day”, yet many will not be carrying any gift. Let us pray that we will have a gift to lay at His feet by the obdeince that comes from our faith.
• “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the Word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. (If anybody deserves to be with Jesus the day they die … it is those who died this way. But …) They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.” (Revelation 20:4-5).
• Just something to think about. Part of my last will and testament is to make sure that my head is not cocked one way or another when they lay my head on that pillow. Can you imagine the stiff neck you will have if He doesn’t return in a few hours?
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continued study on death - part II
| Posted On: 02/01/09 10:58:59 AM |
Age 50, MI |
Part II (I pray that this is taken as it was studied ... in love for my brothers as iron sharpens iron)
Scripture will never contradict Scripture – it is our interpretations which do the contradicting. So where do the dead go? It appears that they go to the grave to rest. They rest in perfect peace until “That day” or Day of Atonement. So let us search the Scriptures about the dead in Christ. Many verses will be familiar, but let us read them again with a new set of eyes:
o “By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) The dead in Christ are waiting for the time in the future when they will awaken from the dust of the earth and rise "to meet the Lord in the air." At that time, God will raise all of His faithful servants ("the dead in Christ") as incorruptible spirit beings, having immortal life (2 Corinthians. 5:1-10). Verse 10 is the reason that we wait in the grave: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”.
o “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God (Remember the Feast of Trumpets?), and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (I Thessalonians 4:16-17)
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Let us use all the passages
| Posted On: 02/01/09 10:53:21 AM |
Age 50, MI |
I will be posting a couple posts. Just like other "hard to understand" passages, they take time. I will divide it up, I suppose. There is absolutely no attacks (we are all brothers / sisters under the banner of the Messiah - Yeshua (Jesus as He is known in Greek).
Part I:
The most common verse used to support the belief that we automatically go to Heaven when we die is: “Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’” (Luke 23:43) Actually, this is the verse that I threw at my friend to defend the doctrine that says that we will be with the Lord as soon as we die. Check out Ernie’s response … I think it will amaze you as much as it did me:
Although the thief was repentant at the end of his life and deserving of eternal life, could he be given his reward on the day he died and ascend into heaven? Based upon Scripture, the thief did not go to paradise/"heaven" with Yeshua (Jesus) the day He died. In fact, on Sunday morning we find Yeshua telling Mary, “I am not yet ascended to my Father." (John 20:17) This shows that not even Yeshua went to heaven upon his death. After further inspection, we must note that the punctuation of the bible is not inspired, but ADDED BY MEN. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the word "today" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Assuredly, I say unto you today [in other words, (I tell you right now)], you will be with Me in paradise." We know that Yeshua's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31 … “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory.”), and all the righteous of all ages will enter into it at that time and not at death. (I Thessalonians 4:15… “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.”)
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asleep in Christ
| Posted On: 01/30/09 01:18:26 PM |
Age 36, AK |
Ok, so I read the "doctrine" of soul sleep from a paritcular denomination. I am not in agreement with all that denominations doctrines, however, I can't deny the truth of God's word....The following passage is from Paul's Rapture Revelation:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
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Judgment Day
| Posted On: 01/30/09 08:25:45 AM |
Age 39, SC |
So, since the the Day (notice, THE day, singular) of Judgment has not yet occurred, please tell me how ANYONE has been placed into heaven or hell?
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Propaganda, not Excegesis
| Posted On: 01/30/09 06:04:33 AM |
Age 44, MI |
The verses that you site do not support your premise. Just because Jesus decended: and it does not state he decended into 'hades', it says the depths of the earth; does not mean when he ascended, that the captives were brought into heaven. Jesus is at the right hand of God correct, but the verses do not state that the saints are there with Him at this time.
There are other verses that state that no one has enetered into heaven yet. But those are not dealt with. You use the admittedly figurative language of Luke's recorded parable to demonstrate the division of sheol, yet you base a doctrine on this. This is not rational, this is misleading.
Just as is normal for Dispensationalists, they work very hard to maintain the status quo propaganda, even when the texts they use do not support what they profess. This article is insufficently intellectually honest to be anything more than inaccurate.
Dr. Reagan even sites what Jesus states is future in Revelations to support what he states is current. At least admit that you have taken a leap of logic, that the texts do not support. More people have lost all due to thier living in the flesh while demanding they are correct, than have ever left something positive.
Decide whether you want to 'right', or humble.
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Huh?
| Posted On: 01/29/09 03:07:15 PM |
Age 34, CA |
How can you pull tidbits from Paul without including his massive writings about a physical resurrection? Without taking your "points" one by one, if Paul was speaking about being "absent" from his body, he wasn't referring to the soul per se, but the new spiritual body - the kind of spiritual body that people like Thomas can put his fingers on. The concept of a soul cleaving from the body at the moment of death is most certainly a Greek infiltration. The supposed people who advocate a "soul sleep" situation seems like either straw men/women or other ultra-conservatives. "Soul sleep" suffers from the same error of reading the Bible with an agenda - two sides of the same coin - because it begins a priori with our souls escaping our bodies. Regardless, we will be risen when Christ returns, outfitted with a new body. We are "asleep" until then, as Paul constantly says. But does anyone feel like they are "waiting" when they are asleep? No. The time spent asleep feels virtually nonexistent - we close our eyes to sleep, we open them afterwards and it is morning...almost instantaneous. Could this be what Paul meant when he described it as sleep? Bottom line: it doesn't matter. We have the promise of salvation - which begins now - and Christ shall return.
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