What is eschatology the study of?
| Posted On: 12/06/08 12:45:30 PM |
Age 40, NH |
Please answer the above question with the knowledge that we are speaking in a Christian context. We are studying what Scripture speaks about the eschaton. The subject is what Scripture says about the subject, not a study of any eschatology.
Everyone is making the assumption that we are speaking of biblical eschatology so please let's be adults when we reply to each other. Most don't make the distinction in everyday conversation between the discipline and the subject. Whether you or I appreciate that fact is not as relevant as dealing with how most people are speaking and understanding. That makes room for learning but also for attempting to nitpick when we know exactly what someone meant when they wrote or said something.
Scripture has eschataological predictions, writings and implications. To study eschatology in this context is studying Scripture (hopefully in it's context).
Much of Scripture is about the eschaton.
Scripture makes many statements, predictions, prophecies about the eschaton.
God has revealed in His word certain happenings and events and personalities that will come about in the eschaton.
Studying all Scripture automatically makes one study eschatology at different points.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful. If studying all Scripture is useful that means it is fruitful.
If the study of Scripture is fruitful, studying what Scripture says about the eschaton is fruitful
If studying what Scripture says about the eschaton is fruitful, then eschatology is fruitful because it is the study of what the God-breath word says about the eschaton.
So when you say that debating eschatology is fruitless and that it is nothing more than an intellectual exercise which affects not your faith, doctrine or practice, you are wrong. If one thinks that they are unaffected in their worldview and practice, then they are wrong. Our worldview affects our practice and faith. It matters not if one's worldview is acknowledged or unacknowledged either.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
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Eschatology is not Scripture
| Posted On: 12/06/08 10:53:14 AM |
Age 50, MT |
Sorry, friend, eschatology is not Scripture. It is is biblical discipline. It employs Scripture and interprets Scripture. But it is not Scripture any more than atonement is Scripture. And in my opinion (and we are stating opinions here), it is largely a fruitless discipline. As you so eloquently stated, having the "right" eschalotogical viewpoint has little to do with living a holy Christian life. As far as the author "attacking" other viewpoints, how would you interpret his statement that other views "undermine the fundamentals of the Christian Faith?" I agree, we can debate in friendly, loving ways. But we need to retain integrity in our words and opinions, and also honestly assess what people are really saying.
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OK
| Posted On: 12/05/08 08:54:41 PM |
Age 40, NH |
Your words weren't accurate friend. You did speak about the value of Scripture in your post. Study of eschatology s the study of Scripture. All Scripture is fruitful to study. Eschatology or, "study of end times" is very fruitful indeed.
Debate is good, as long as it is in love and is respectful because that type of debate (or conversation) makes one think about what they believe and to see how inline with Scripture their eschatalogical viewpoint is.
Although I disagree with quite a bit of Geisler's aricle (and I am a pre-millenialist myself), I see nothing about tearing others down and it seems you have found something not there. He is advocating a position without tearing other viewpoints down although he does point out where he thinks other views don't measure up as well with the standard pre-mill position. That is far from tearing others down.
One's end times viewpoint is important and certainly affects how they live. Some pre-mills are thinking too much of the after-the-rapture and not paying attention enough to the physical needs of people. Some a'mills have no urgency in guiding others to Him. Some post-tribbers are fatalistic while some pre-wrath are only prepared for some tribulation and persecution but not all of it. There is a reason for stereotypes of end time adherents and that is because it does affect our actions and faith.
Although eschatology isn't an issue of salvific import, it is very important nonetheless and should be debated in friendly, loving ways even when we disagree with each other.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
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I see your point, but...
| Posted On: 12/04/08 09:52:39 PM |
Age 50, MT |
...I did not mention the value of Scripture in my post. We ought to study, know, and understand the teachings of the faith as found in Scripture. That is a given. But the debate regarding end times scenarios and the attendant doctrinal disputes is fruitless. Consider the author's article. After reading it, do you find yourself drawn to worship God, do you feel like you were edified, or was your desire to seek the things of God in your Christian walk increased? You see, the author wasn't trying to teach the ways of righteousness, service to the Body, or ministry to the lost. His intent was to tear down those who disagree, in a doctrinal area that his not central to the faith.
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Interesting
| Posted On: 12/04/08 06:37:20 PM |
Age 40, NH |
Although I don't argue about eschatology, to say it is "little more than an intellectual exercise that bears no fruit" is false and dangerous. God inspired those sections of Scripture and ALL Scripture is useful.... Study of and application of eschatology is obviously important to God otherwise, He wouldn't have given us the information about the subject as He has done.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
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JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY FOUNDATION
| Posted On: 12/03/08 10:43:50 AM |
Age 65, OH |
Dear brother Norm, you say that a belief we hold will make us pure; this is NOT true. You quote 1 Jn 3:3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.-- But John is not speaking of a "belief" as this hope. Read the rest of John and you will see that John says that the person of Jesus is our Hope. It is The Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ within us that is our Hope. Our hope is a Person not a belief. - You also say,"The literal historical/grammatical fundamental on which it is based underlies all the salvation fundamentals of the Faith. Giving it up belies to serious problems for the future of the church. First, we are giving up the very basis for all the fundamental Christian doctrines". No method of study or any doctrine is the foundation of my salvation. There can not be two foundations. It can not be both belief or doctrines and also be Jesus Christ. I trust in The Lord Jesus Christ to save me and nothing else; or as Paul clearly tells us in Galatians, if we trust in Jesus and something else, then Jesus can not save us. There is One and Only One Foundation and that is the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.- No person will be saved by joining any church or group. I do not follow premillennialism or amillennialism, for any to follow anything except the Lord Jesus leads to death.- Jesus told the disciples many times that He would suffer and die but they did not understand. The OT is full of The Cross of the Lord Jesus and yet almost no one understood. The pharisees had refined their methods of study to a science and yet their study of the scriptures led them to their death. Jesus told them, 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.- Jesus shows us the Way to understand the scriptures in Luke 24: 45THEN HE OPENED THEIR MINDS SO THEY COULD UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, - If we follow any doctrine we are the blind following the blind. It is when the disciples became so distraught that they looked only to Jesus that He was able to open their minds so they could understand. I have put down all doctrines and all groups and have found that they are all worth less than dung. The Lord Jesus Christ is my total foundation and the next step is the same as the first step. Lou Newton
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I expected better
| Posted On: 12/03/08 08:17:14 AM |
Age 49, MT |
I expected a better defense of premillenialism from this man, whom I otherwise respect greatly. None of the criteria he lists (paradise regained, real end to history, consistent hermeneutic, urgency to evangelism, incentive for holiness) are unique to premillenialism. Also, I expected the author to address some of the legitmate criticisms of premillenialism, and he did not. Finally, there are a variety of legitimate views regarding eschatology on the table, none of which come to bear on real issues of faith, doctrine or practice. Eschatology is little more than an intellectual exercise the bears no fruit.
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