For God all things are possible!
| Posted On: 09/19/08 06:43:11 PM |
Age 22, AUSTRALIA |
Regarding the various comments made referring to whether or not the Ark would have been able to withstand the conditions during the flood based on this and that fact, lets not make the mistake of the evolutionist and Atheist in interchanging experimental science with historical science.
The reality is we weren't there so we aren't able to know what the wave sizes were, we don't know what kind of pressures were experienced and we certainly don't need to use engineering constructs or modeling to assure us of the safety and integrity of the Arks design and surrounding conditions.
The God who defines himself by Himself - 'I Am the I Am', breathed the universe, shaped man, provides salvation from our wicked condition is surely also able to safely and comfortably keep that which belongs to Himself. If he can make a man walk on water, he can keep a boat afloat :)
Lets be careful not to use science as a justification for scripture (not that I'm stipulating that anyone on this site is). Science is merely mans (limited?) understanding of God's creation. The Bible is God's testimony of the Creator.
God defines Himself by Himself. In the same way, the Word of God speaks for itself. It does not need mans limited understanding to defend it.
At the end of the day, science changes. The Word of God does not. Lets accept it.
Bless God. Stay strong in your repentance and love your King.
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HAS GOD SAVED THE ARK
| Posted On: 09/18/08 04:40:29 AM |
Age 64, OH |
Hi PGW, Maybe God has been hiding the ark away for a future revealing of it to the world. If God has preserved the ark, it is for a purpose. Lou
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HAS GOD SAVED THE ARK
| Posted On: 09/18/08 04:37:07 AM |
Age 64, OH |
Hi PGW, Maybe God has been hiding the ark away for a future revealing of it to the world. If God has preserved the ark, it is for a purpose. Lou
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GOLD CHAINS IN COAL ?
| Posted On: 09/18/08 04:33:43 AM |
Age 64, OH |
Hi PGW, I would be interested in looking at these things you speak of, "gold chains in coal lumps, intricate figurines embedded in rocks (supposedly millions of years old) and fossils of HUGE human leg bones". Could you post where we could read about these things. Thanks. Lou
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Maybe a different perspective would help.
| Posted On: 09/16/08 10:19:16 AM |
Age 57, OR |
In the days of Noah:
Indeed, tides would not be the same as today.
There would not be the massive salt seas that we have today. (the salts were probably a by-product of leaching from the earth's depths when the fountains of the deep burst forth).
The people themselves would have had greater oxygen pressure therefore be of far greater stature. GOOD "greenhouse", little UV, 50% increase in oxygen content, much higher oxygen pressure... all this equates to BIG healthy people, BIG animals, BIG trees, LONG life, NO polar caps, WORLD-wide equitable climate, MORE general knowledge! And of course, extremes of debauchery -- the reason for the flood. The artifacts that have been recovered from before the flood, gold chains in coal lumps, intricate figurines embedded in rocks (supposedly millions of years old) and fossils of HUGE human leg bones all point to a very smart population that was considerably larger and did not live under the same constraints that we do today. If you look at the earth's precession historisis, it appears to indicated a gigantic upset about 4000+ years ago. The dust depth on the moon appears to be consisent with approximately 6+ thousands of years (not millions). Another interesting point about a sample of the wood taken from the Ark (near the "VILLAGE of the EIGHT" in Turkey) is that there appear to be NO annual growth rings. Align that with bore samples taken near the north pole (2000' below the thermafrost layer) of trees STILL standing to a height of 300 feet... AND WE HAVE A DIFFERENT WORLD.
Gopher wood: what is that? No one seems to know so maybe it is no longer a living specie. It would not surpise me that the Lord God would know His stuff in regards to construction. After all, we made some excellent war-planes out of balsa and ply! If the ARK were constructed of dowel and mortised exotic timbers with no grain, who knows their strength and suitability? Well I am sure the Lord God did! PGW
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Most interesting..
| Posted On: 09/16/08 09:35:13 AM |
Age 57, OR |
Yes, it would be a great expedition!
Hitting an amenable weather pattern would be a trick however. Funny really: we can do the Shuttle thing and sent the Rover to Mars...to try and prove our "origins" yet getting to the Mountains of Ararat seem out of the question. PGW
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Ass umptions
| Posted On: 09/12/08 06:27:09 AM |
Age 48, MO |
Nice diatribe. However, your reasoning is unreasonable because your perspective is your assumptions. Let me ask you a simple question, did tides exist before the flood? Would this alone make all the difference in your reasoning? Wow, and I only used 50 words to bring down your arguement. John
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ALMIGHTY GOD
| Posted On: 09/12/08 12:14:15 AM |
Age 64, OH |
What if a wooded ship the same size as the scriptures say that Noah built. What if this ship was found on Mt. Ararat buried under the ice all these years. What would you say then. - Just because men can not do something, is absolutely no evidence that God can not accomplish something like it only far greater. Anyone who does not understand that God is so far greater than man, that no man can even understand the ways of God, has not yet come to understand the concept of a Almighty God. Lou Newton
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Shipwright
| Posted On: 09/10/08 10:43:58 AM |
Age 47, TN |
The universal deluge and the ark are articles of faith. The numerous scientific problems with the flood and logistical problems with the ark are well documented.
Evangelical Christians are fond of rejecting much of Biblical criticism as "isogesis" rather than "exegesis." I put it to you that science and engineering are equally unfriendly to isogesis.
I do not accept the accusation of materialism when I say that literal Bible reading is possible, but that it must be seen to conform with obvious, common sense facts. It puts you in the category of believing in a flat earth in the center of the universe as late as the 17th century, when the Greeks knew better in the 3rd century BCE.
Ray Comfort and Richard Gunther have run afoul of this here, in the area I would like to address. Historical shipbuilding.
Both the SS Great Britain and the RMS Etruria were iron hulled ships. There is a rich history of large all wooden ships: Grace Dieu, c. 1420, 219 feet; The Great Michael, c. 1511, 240 feet; The Vasa, c. 1628, 228 feet; L'Orient, c. 1791, 214 feet; The Rochambeau, c. 1865, 377 feet; and the more contemporary Appomattox, c. 1896, 319 feet.
The biggest wooden boat speculated on was the Ming Dynasty Chinese treasure ship of Zheng He, 15th century, which was speculated at 415 feet.
Each of these ships "pushed wooden ship design to it's practical limits." All of these ships were notably unseaworthy. Most of them sank in open water when they either flexed and broke in half or took water and sunk.
All of these ships had contemporary modifications including brass and iron rivets, iron cross straps, steel reinforced keelsons, and strake edge jointing (the last technology was available well back into classical times.
All of these required multiple donkey or steam driven pumps to keep them from taking on water from the flex created by their ambitious length. Still, they almost universally sunk, many on their maiden voyage.
In addition, although it does not negate the possibility of Noah's ark, the massive amount of timber required for even one of these ships defies a small building crew's capacity to build it, even on the biblical timeline presented.
The era of wooden ship warfare ended partially because of massive deforestation in Spain and Great Britain, created by the need for the lumber necessary for these vessels. Only in America and Canada were there proper resources.
Atheists and skeptics get into deep water (pun intended) when they argue biblical points.
Comfort and Gunther are equally out of their element in the argument over ship building.
It is possible to look at the universal deluge as either an allegory or an historically borrowed story. There is ample evidence for the latter. This can be done without damaging the message of scripture.
Where scientific fact and biblical truth are taken to be equally rigid and defensibly correct, the error in the disagreement between the two must necessarily reside in the incorrect doctrine, or the poor exegesis of the religious practitioner.
I think in the case of Creationism and Intelligent design this is certainly true. It is arguable that these errors are evident throughout their articles of faith.
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Big enough for the job.
| Posted On: 09/09/08 02:15:43 PM |
Age 57, OR |
I would imagine, since God and Noah are considerably smarter than I am and both had been around longer... that they would have had the ark loaded with smaller/younger animals. Less food, less waste = more room. since the flood occurred considerably less than 10,000 years ago, I imagine that the earth's upset and resultant precession, moon's distance and gravitational influences etc. would be similar to what we experience today. Waves would probably have a similar FETCH etc. However, I would imagine that is was no picnic for Noah and the critters! It would be interesting to do some kind of mock-up model study of what the ark (so constructed) could have withstood. I am interested in this because of the way the Bible alludes to the waters coming and receding in what would have probably been a huge global tidal morass of debris, Tsunami waves, tree-rafts the size of Texas and a general corialis shift causing huge tidal rips and the like. Most likely the break-up of the fountains of the deep and the wobble of the earth would have upset the equation eaven more. Thanks for the article. PGW
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THE ARK IS ON MT ARARAT
| Posted On: 09/09/08 12:17:05 PM |
Age 64, OH |
God has put the Ark in a place that makes access to it very difficult. Mt Ararat is in Turkey on it's border with Armenia and very close to Iran. Mt Ararat is a volcano that is almost 17000 feet high and last erupted in 1840. Ararat was in a no man's land between Turkey and the USSR in most of the modern era. Also the Kurdish tribes that live in that area make it difficult to get there. Josephus reports in 70 AD that the Ark was still there. Morco Polo also reports in 1300 AD that the Ark was there. Turkey has been Muslim for centuries and they are not interested in anything that would show the Christian Bible to be true. The Local people in Armenia do not consider the Ark as a legend at all, but it is a known fact to them. Their ancestors had steps that went up to the Ark for centuries, until they were destroyed in a earth quake. A Russian pilot flew over Ararat in WW1 and he took a photo of the Ark. He had to be very careful with this for the communists were atheists. The Ark is covered by the ice most of the time, but a little of it is exposed off and on. A man went up the mountain, without the authorities approval and found the Ark some years ago. I can not remember his name, but I think he was french. He brought back a fairly large beam of the Ark. The wood was black, I do not know if by age or pitch. If I had the funds, I would try to get permission to climb this mountain and look for it. I believe the Ark is still on Mt Ararat. I also think that if the Government of Turkey was shown that the Ark would show the past of all mankind and not just Christians and they would benefit greatly also, that permission could be obtained. Lou Newton
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THE BIBLE HAS THE MARKS OF AN HONEST ACCOUNT
| Posted On: 09/09/08 11:01:02 AM |
Age 64, OH |
The same people who doubt Noah's Ark as fact read other written accounts of history and believe them. They do not doubt the accounts of Caesar about his military exploits. But Caesar was known to be self serving and very ambitious. Caesar does not reveal his own mistakes and faults. I think the accounts of Caesar may be fairly accurate but they probably have deceptions in them as well. The Bible is unique in that it tells of the faults of the men that it tells about. We are not only told about Noah being a righteous man who obeyed God and built the Ark, but we are told that after the flood Noah got drunk with wine and lay in his tent naked. Caesar does not reveal things like that about himself. This is great evidence that The Bible is a very accurate account. An honest man admits he is a liar, a man who says he has never lied, is telling a lie at that moment. Lou Newton
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