GOD OWNS ALL THE CATTLE ON THE HILLS
| Posted On: 05/30/08 10:29:57 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Yes, Jesus said give unto Caesar what is Caesars, and give unto God what is God's. What some fail to realize is that everything is God's. Lou
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Notice that God Spoke Directly To That Man?
| Posted On: 05/30/08 07:12:01 PM |
Age 40, NH |
Scripture records God raised up Ehud to deliver Israel. That is direct intervention and instruction anointed as a judge for His people who had a covenant with Him, not a pluralistic nation) from God. Ehud was directed (direct revelation from Yahweh to Ehud)to be His instrument to liberate Israel.
Do any of the founding fathers claim direct revelation from God to break away from Great Britain? If so, did Yahweh also tell whoever this 'judge' to set up a pluralistic society but not make a covenant with that nation?
To be accurate to the word of God, this was not a breakaway colony nor was it a rebellion. Moab did not control all of Israel. Eglon was not king of Israel, he was a king who by invasion controlled only a portion of Israel. Israel cannot be legally in control of any part of the borders promised to Abraham but can only occupy it until evicted by Him.
There is no real analogy between the colonist's revolution against the proper authority of the crown (no matter if desired or not. Pretty sure Israel didn't like the Romans)and Ehud rescuing a part of Israel from an occupying force because he was appointed specifically and personally by Yahweh.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
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THE LORD TOLD A MAN TO KILL THE KING THAT GOD HIMSELF HAD PUT INTO POWER
| Posted On: 05/30/08 02:19:42 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Some say, "Nowhere in Scripture do we see the right to overthrow government". But we read in Judges WHERE THE LORD DID TELL EHUD TO OVERTHROW THE KING THAT GOD HIMSELF HAD PUT IN POWER 3:1 THESE ARE THE NATIONS THE LORD LEFT TO TEST ALL THOSE ISRAELITES WHO HAD NOT EXPERIENCED ANY OF THE WARS in Canaan 2 (he did this only to teach warfare to the descendants of the Israelites who had not had previous battle experience): 3 the five rulers of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites living in the Lebanon mountains from Mount Baal Hermon to Lebo [a] Hamath. 4 THEY WERE LEFT TO TEST THE ISRAELITES to see whether they would obey the LORD's commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses.-- 12 Once again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and because they did this evil the LORD GAVE EGLON KING OF MOAB POWER OVER ISRAEL. -- 14 The Israelites were subject to Eglon king of Moab for eighteen years.-- 15 Again the Israelites CRIED OUT TO THE LORD, AND HE GAVE THEM A DELIVERER—Ehud, a left-handed man, the son of Gera the Benjamite. The Israelites sent him with tribute to Eglon king of Moab. 16 Now Ehud had made a double-edged sword about a foot and a half long, which he strapped to his right thigh under his clothing. 17 He presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab, who was a very fat man. 18 After Ehud had presented the tribute, he sent on their way the men who had carried it. 19 At the idols near Gilgal he himself turned back and said, "I have a secret message for you, O king."
The king said, "Quiet!" And all his attendants left him.
20 Ehud then approached him while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his summer palace and said, "I have a message from God for you." As the king rose from his seat, 21 Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king's belly. 22 Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it. 23 Then Ehud went out to the porch ; he shut the doors of the upper room behind him and locked them.-- 26 While they waited, Ehud got away. He passed by the idols and escaped to Seirah. 27 When he arrived there, he blew a trumpet in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went down with him from the hills, with him leading them.
28 "Follow me," he ordered, "for the LORD has given Moab, your enemy, into your hands." So they followed him down and, taking possession of the fords of the Jordan that led to Moab, they allowed no one to cross over. 29 At that time they struck down about ten thousand Moabites, all vigorous and strong; not a man escaped. 30 That day Moab was made subject to Israel, and the land had peace for eighty years. -- THE LORD RAISES UP AND TEARS DOWN THE KINGDOMS OF MEN. Lou
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THE LORD TOLD EHUD TO OVERTHROW THE KING THAT GOD HAD PUT IN POWER
| Posted On: 05/30/08 02:08:51 PM |
Age 64, OH |
I quote you, "Nowhere in Scripture do we see the right to overthrow government". But we read in Judges WHERE THE LORD DID TELL EHUD TO OVERTHROW THE KING WHO WAS OVER THEM 3:1 THESE ARE THE NATIONS THE LORD LEFT TO TEST ALL THOSE ISRAELITES WHO HAD NOT EXPERIENCED ANY OF THE WARS in Canaan 2 (he did this only to teach warfare to the descendants of the Israelites who had not had previous battle experience): 3 the five rulers of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites living in the Lebanon mountains from Mount Baal Hermon to Lebo [a] Hamath. 4 THEY WERE LEFT TO TEST THE ISRAELITES to see whether they would obey the LORD's commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses.-- 12 Once again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and because they did this evil the LORD GAVE EGLON KING OF MOABPOWER OVER ISRAEL. 13 Getting the Ammonites and Amalekites to join him, Eglon came and attacked Israel, and they took possession of the City of Palms. [d] 14 The Israelites were subject to Eglon king of Moab for eighteen years.-- 15 Again the Israelites CRIED OUT TO THE LORD, AND HE GAVE THEM A DELIVERER—Ehud, a left-handed man, the son of Gera the Benjamite. The Israelites sent him with tribute to Eglon king of Moab. 16 Now Ehud had made a double-edged sword about a foot and a half long, which he strapped to his right thigh under his clothing. 17 He presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab, who was a very fat man. 18 After Ehud had presented the tribute, he sent on their way the men who had carried it. 19 At the idols [f] near Gilgal he himself turned back and said, "I have a secret message for you, O king."
The king said, "Quiet!" And all his attendants left him.
20 Ehud then approached him while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his summer palace [g] and said, "I have a message from God for you." As the king rose from his seat, 21 Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king's belly. 22 Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it. 23 Then Ehud went out to the porch ; he shut the doors of the upper room behind him and locked them.
24 After he had gone, the servants came and found the doors of the upper room locked. They said, "He must be relieving himself in the inner room of the house." 25 They waited to the point of embarrassment, but when he did not open the doors of the room, they took a key and unlocked them. There they saw their lord fallen to the floor, dead.
26 While they waited, Ehud got away. He passed by the idols and escaped to Seirah. 27 When he arrived there, he blew a trumpet in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went down with him from the hills, with him leading them.
28 "Follow me," he ordered, "for the LORD has given Moab, your enemy, into your hands." So they followed him down and, taking possession of the fords of the Jordan that led to Moab, they allowed no one to cross over. 29 At that time they struck down about ten thousand Moabites, all vigorous and strong; not a man escaped. 30 That day Moab was made subject to Israel, and the land had peace for eighty years. -- THE LORD RAISES UP AND TEARS DOWN THE KINGDOMS OF MEN. Lou
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THE SONS OF GOD ARE THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE SPIRIT
| Posted On: 05/30/08 01:18:29 PM |
Age 64, OH |
We are not to do anything unless the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus instructs us to do so. We are to be like Jesus and He said he did nothing unless The Father told Him to do it and Jesus said He did everything the father told Him to do. Lou
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BOTH BABYLON AND PERSIA GOT THEIR KINGDOMS BY FORCE
| Posted On: 05/30/08 12:45:49 PM |
Age 64, OH |
We are not to do anything on our own. For our lives are not our own by belong to the One who shed His blood for us, The Lord Jesus Christ. Daniel did what the Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus told him to do. Daniel 1st stood against eating the unclean food of the king of Babylon. He did this is a respectful way. Later the three stood against the king who demanded they bow to an idol that the king thought he saw in his vision from God. When Daniel was older he did not respect the grandson who had become king and read the handwriting on the wall from God. Later that night the Persians rebelled against the Babylon government and Daniel was honored by these Persian "rebels", and God had Daniel serve the Persians. Daniel served God, not men. Lou
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IT IS REBELLION AGAINST GOD THAT IS AS WITCHCRAFT
| Posted On: 05/30/08 12:33:50 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Dear friend, you say, "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (KJV). Whatever other way the founding fathers may be characterized, they were manifestly rebels against a legally-constituted government of which they were citizens. Yes rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, but it is rebellion against God not man,that is this sin. What constitutes a legal government. The very British government you say they should have obeyed had "rebelled" against a former British government and so that were in power and not the former "legal government". So who do you say we should obey; the people that are in charge by the force of arms they possess. Daniel was NOT obeying the Persian government that overcame the government of Babylon by force of arms, but Daniel was obeying God. Lou
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WE CAN NOT JUDGE THE MEN OF THE PAST
| Posted On: 05/30/08 10:39:37 AM |
Age 64, OH |
I have been a student of history since my childhood and have come to learn this one thing. We can not look back into time and see the truth of what happened in any event of history. We can and should study the past to learn the lessons it has to teach. But we can not JUDGE the people of the past anymore than we can judge the people of the present. No man knows my heart, let alone someone who has never met me or never been to my house. Jesus knows my heart better than I know myself and yet Jesus reserves judgment until the proper time. Jesus shows me mercy until my time is up and then He will judge me. But we are not to judge, for Jesus is THE Judge, and we as mere men fall so short of the qualifications to judge. We as mere men can not know what any man said or did, for sure, in the past. It is hard to find out what any man did yesterday, let alone 200 to 400 years ago. We can only read what these men wrote of themselves and of others. We can not know what God directed any man to do unless God reveals it to us. Sometimes men are directed by God, and even the ones directed are unaware. We can study the American Revolution but we can not know the hearts of any of these men. We can not know if they were directed by God or by their own desires. But this we do know, The Lord Jesus Christ directs the building up and tearing down of the kingdoms of men. He will continue to do this until He comes to reign on this earth Himself. The Kingdom that is to come is our hope and not the kingdoms of men. We are to follow The Lord Jesus Christ from moment to moment until that Kingdom comes. Grace and peace to all. Lou Newton
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THEY WALKED WITH JESUS IN THE FURNACE
| Posted On: 05/29/08 09:46:36 AM |
Age 64, OH |
So by your own statement here you would have obeyed the Nazi government of Germany and turned in the rebel Jews who were not submitting to their death and the death of all their children. We as Christians are not to be faithful to governments but we are to be faithful to The Lord Jesus Christ. Daniel was not obedient to the King of Babylon but was obedient to God and was a friend of the king and looked out for the good of the king. But even though Daniel was a loyal friend to the king he asked to be able to disobey the kings diet and his three friends would not bow to the gold statue that he had made. When we follow their example we will be thrown into the furnace as they were. But in the furnace we will walk and talk with The Lord Jesus as they did. Lou
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DUAL CITIZENSHIP
| Posted On: 05/27/08 10:57:38 PM |
Age 44, MS |
Neither McArthur nor Howse deal with the Biblical concept that as American Christians we have a dual citizenship: we are citizens of both Heaven and America. Thus, we are to pay taxes to Ceasar while also supporting God's kingdom. Our responsibilites as Christians stand distinct from our obligations as citizens. Thus, the American Revolution was NOT a Christian Revolution. Christians joined together side-by-side with American Jews and unbelievers to fight a Revolution as fellow Americans - not as fellow Christians. (Christians - in their capacity as Christians - should focus on building the spiritual kingdom that is not of this world. The Church as the Church - while taking a stand on moral issues - should not be involved in political issues. On the other hand, an individual believer in his capacity as a citizen should be involved in politics.) The founding fathers, however, did fight the revolution based upon a Judaeo-Christian ethic. This is not to state that Christians - acting in any capacity can ever violate Scriptural principles - but simply a recognition that Christians often act upon principles which are not directly related to their main calling to evangelize the world. In other words, God does not call us - as Christians - to fight against tyranny in this world. The mission of the Church is NOT to save the culture or a nation, but to save souls. However, this doesn't mean that acting as a citizen of America, a believer cannot take a stand against tyranny.
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Be aware
| Posted On: 05/27/08 09:06:04 PM |
Age 34, FL |
Careful. You are mixing a lot of stuff together that really is not applicable. As followers of Jesus Christ we are in this world not of it. "Come out of her my people" refers to the true sheep coming out of the apostate church. The Lord's Kingdom is not of this world. That is very important whether you live in a nation which has enjoyed a Christian heritage or one in which no defense is possible (and oppression has to be accepted). I think the American Christian's role in spreading the gospel throughout the world is well documented. The prosperity we enjoyed as a result of being a nation under God is a blessing from the Lord. It's our charge now to evangelize our fellow citizens as we are seeing the undoing of our Christian heritage within our government.
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Disagree
| Posted On: 05/26/08 09:53:38 PM |
Age 60, KS |
Perhaps a pertinent scripture is I Samuel 15:23, in God's words rejecting Saul as king: "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (KJV). Whatever other way the founding fathers may be characterized, they were manifestly rebels against a legally-constituted government of which they were citizens. It was only BY their rebellion against that government that they became "founding fathers" of the new nation.
They unquestionably saw themselves as rebels. It was to legitimate their rebellion that they published the Declaration of Independence, with its list of George III's offenses which (they believed) justified their rebellion.
Their justification was that governments are instituted to secure men's God-given rights ("Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"): and have a further right to "alter or abolish" any government that becomes destructive of those divinely-appointed rights.
The founding fathers' theology of "rights", with its operative idea of human entitlement...much less their justifications for a sin God considers equivalent to witchcraft...seems to me pretty contrary to normative Christian
understanding of God's sovereignty and God's Kingship.
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Nebuchadnezzar's flutes
| Posted On: 05/26/08 07:27:54 PM |
Age 61, MO |
We are not being asked to bow down to a false god. We are being attacked on an earthly level by people who call themselves government but who practice iniquity against their fellow human beings. Your analogies do not fit the circumstances that exist in present day America. If you were caught in a raging flood, hanging onto a tree limb, and someone wanted to rescue you, and you said you would trust the Lord to save you, what do you think the Lord would say when you drowned? George Cancilla
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Romans 13 means submission to all Governments.
| Posted On: 05/26/08 07:17:22 AM |
Age 27, FL |
Who was the book of Romans written to? Romans, right? The Christians who received this theological treatise from Paul, the suffering Apostle, where facing tribulation and were about to face even greater suffering at the hands of the Roman government. Rome was a tyrannical dictatorship whose Caesar's, specifically Nero, fed Christians to lions, impaled believers on stakes, dipped them in tar and lit them for festivals, and crucified thousands of converts.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church" When studying church history, it is clear that periods of persecution are times of great church growth. Conversely, times of relative peace with world authorities often lead to apathy and syncretism.
During the Diaspora of A.D. 70, false teachers and week kneed believers were exposed for what they were and true believers were driven to the ends of the earth spreading the gospel as they went. Similarly, one can look today at the persecution in China and its resultant revival with thousands converting to Christ every day.
Romans 13 command's the believer to submit up until the point the government causes him to sin (whether against conscience or against scripture). Daniel continued to pray in the open because it was his custom, not to do so would sin against his conscience. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow to the idol and gladly went into the furnace because they would not disobey the law of God; God was faithful to protect them.
We may face persecution in this life, if and when that comes how will we react? Will we submit to the authorities up to the point of sinning, or will we like Peter, raise a sword to strike down the high priest servant only to be rebuked by our Lord? Remember Christ humility to the point of death on a Cross (Phil 2:5-11), he is our example. Remember the persecution of the apostles as the imitated Christ and take on such an attitude not complaining but shining as lights among a crooked generation (Phil 2:14-16). Also, read 'Foxes Book of Martyr's' for many more examples of joyful suffering.
Ultimately, government is a civil arbiter of good and God is in control of all governments and their respective leaders are under his hand of authority. If you want change you can believe in, than pray for our leaders so that the will of God may be done.
"The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will" (Proverbs 21:1).
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Defense
| Posted On: 05/25/08 08:17:27 PM |
Age 44, SC |
So, Daniel and his three friends should have led a revolt in Babylon, the 12 disciples should have led a revolt against Herod and Pilate, Paul and the Apostles should have led a revolt against the emperor of Rome? In all of these cases their "freedom of religion" was challenged. The colonists had experienced freedom of religion. We can see that the 13 colonies had a diverse number of denominations. You are correct with the idea of "no taxation without representation" and in fact Great Britain offered that at one time and the colonists said no.
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Dr. MacArthur needs to reread our history
| Posted On: 05/24/08 08:07:39 PM |
Age 43, FL |
I suggest Dr. MacArthur reread his American history, from the original sources, not the edited sources of today.
Dr. MacArthur is intelligent and I agree with him on many Christian issues, I think he is wrong to say the founding of the US was a sin.
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Really?
| Posted On: 05/24/08 04:02:43 PM |
Age 40, NH |
Paul was writing to people who, like himself, were under much greater oppression than the colonists during the 1700's. If Yahweh had desired to make it a "godly government only" passage, He would have made that clear. Romansis clear, obey the government. We see the Israeli women disobeying Pharoah because they would have to personally committ sin by killing the boys. If Jesus was for overthrow or revolution against bad governments, He would have sided with the Pharisees and Zealots, which is not what He did. He said pay the government what they demand, pay Yahweh what He demands.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
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Christians should stand against evil
| Posted On: 05/24/08 11:35:29 AM |
Age 61, MO |
Christians are entitled to have a part in the working of the world as much as non Christians, as long as they don't make worldly materialistic things a priority of worship over God. Some issues are merely political in nature, while some are a matter of right and wrong in the eyes of God. A government that lies to the people and steals from them, and acts in ways treasonous to the welfare of the people, forfeits its authority and is subject to discipline just like any other citizen. George Cancilla
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Yes, defense
| Posted On: 05/24/08 10:34:00 AM |
Age 17, VA |
It doesn't matter if the crown was trying to solve the "Indian" conflicts. The colonists probably could have handled those themselves. The main issue is the phrase, "taxation without representation." George III would not listen to the real grievances of the colonists, what they were really worried about, so they revolted and overthrew the tyrannical British government. It is about who started it. The passage about turning the other cheek is nice, but we are not called to be pushovers! We are called to be warriors for Christ, and George III was denying rights to the colonists that were assumed by those living in Britain, including freedom of religion. The official state church at that time was completely messing up the gospel, and punishing anyone who tried to set the church straight. The Revolution was completely justified.
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Thanks George!
| Posted On: 05/23/08 08:14:13 PM |
Age 45, NJ |
Appreciate the explanation... Patrick Burwell/OnlyJesusSaves.com
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