So are you saying...
| Posted On: 05/05/08 10:11:36 PM |
Age 20, MN |
...that God could at any time look into the future but will not? Or are you saying He cannot (i.e. unable to). Incidentally, I do agree that God does not "meticulously" control everything, but that does not mean He is not aware of the future in exact detail.
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Your god is an idol
| Posted On: 05/05/08 09:10:57 PM |
Age 56, NE |
One of the things that has marked open theism is shallowness of thought. By that I mean that they seldom follow their theology to its logical conclusion. Having created an idol in the image of man they still try to cling to sovereignty for him. Their solution is to redefine either sovereignty or ignorance. Have you done any deep thinking about the issues that John has raised? Better yet, have you read Job 38-42 and meditated on the truths found therein? Does that passage sound like a God Who doesn’t know what’s going to happen? Read Isaiah 40 and see if “ignorant God” isn’t a blasphemous description of the Sovereign Lord of Israel? Look particularly at the end of verse 28. “His understanding is inscrutable.” (New American Standard) The King James has it, “[there is] no searching of His understanding.” What does that phrase mean? Inscrutable means “difficult to fathom or understand; impenetrable.” God’s understanding is so far beyond us that if He didn’t reveal a small part of it we would never be able to grasp it! The god of open theism is an idol. See Isaiah 41:21-24 (New American Standard) "Present your case," the LORD says. “Bring forward your strong {arguments,}” The King of Jacob says. Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former {events,} declare what they {were,} That we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming; Declare the things that are going to come afterward, That we may know that you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together. Behold, you are of no account, And your work amounts to nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination.” God says that knowledge of future events is what differentiates Him from false gods. Look at that last phrase!
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JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY
| Posted On: 05/05/08 12:45:54 PM |
Age 64, OH |
I already posted the scripture that proves that God exist outside of time: "IN THE BEGINNING GOD". If God exists outside of time then He is the creator of time and is not bound by His own creation. God can see the past, future, and present for they are all the SAME to Him. If God can see the future right now then that makes this whole argument seem silly. But I also know BY EXPERIENCE that God knows and can even control my actions even though I have free will. One summer when I was young I decided to take a job mowing the grass of a large estate. It was 28 acres and they were having great difficulty because all the equipment was in very poor shape. I worked overtime taking a set of gang reel mowers to the shop to get overhauled so I could use them. The 1st time I used them it was great for I got the whole 28 acres mowed in 8 hours, not including the trimming. But the next time I went to mow with the gang mowers I seen that one large wheel nut had come off of a mower and was missing. I found a spare and replaced it so I could still mow. But now I had a "reel" problem that was real. The missing wheel nut was somewhere out on the estate and I had no idea where it was. The wheel nut was the size of an apple. If I ran over it with the gang of reel mowers it would ruin one of the mowers and I would be back mowing with a little mower. I asked the Lord Jesus to please help me see the wheel not and not run over it. I started to mow and was standing up on the tractor to see better. I was looking very intently from one side to the other. A short time later I was in deep thought and forgot all about the wheel nut. As I was making the LAST pass of unmowed grass; I all of a sudden remembered the wheel nut and was horror struck. Just then I caught a glimpse of something orange in the grass and I slammed on the brakes. This all happened in a fraction of a second. I got off the tractor and looked right in front of one of the mowers. A FEW INCHES in front of the mower was the lost wheel nut. If I had remembered a split second later the mower would have been ruined. I said "thank you Jesus" and just then He spoke to me. He said, "I CAN CAUSE YOU TO REMEMBER AND I CAN CAUSE YOU TO SEE". I was overwhelmed with thanksgiving and the Fact that He is ALMIGHTY. But I was even more thankful that He had bothered to touch me. This was one of the most important lessons the Lord ever taught me. My salvation depends on Him and not me. He is able to save me if I AM WILLING TO BE MADE WILLING. But God can cause even the unwilling to speak what he wills without taking away their free will. The High Priest was an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ but still spoke what the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus willed when he said; Better one Man die than a whole nation". Lou
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Straw Man
| Posted On: 05/05/08 10:08:54 AM |
Age 53, MN |
I once heard it said that if you can make any major religion or religious position sound utterly foolish it means you don't understand it. I have not thought through this issue at any length, and I'm not sure where I stand. But the assumption behind the article is that EVERY volition is free under Open Theism, leading in every instance to multiplied ignorance in every direction. I doubt Open Theists take that position, although I could be wrong. It seems more likely that is a straw man rather than their real position.
If one posits that only one in a million volitional choices from man's perspective are unknown and truely free from God's perspective, it then becomes not only possible, but likely, that such choices will be hemmed in by what John Piper calls "his extraordinary ability to deduce probabilities from known facts", so that as a result essentially, if not actually, all of life is actually foreknown by God. If so, John Piper's arguments here are reduced from compelling to merely persuasive.
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sovereignty
| Posted On: 05/04/08 01:40:00 PM |
Age 21, MN |
I think we all agree as to what sovereignty means: God sets up how things work, and there is no power over Him or that can contend with Him. However, i claim that He has chosen a universe where He doesn't meticulously control everything. That's His choice, and He can make it if He wants to, and He has intelligence and wisdom to accomplish His plan for redemption without controlling everything, or knowing the future. My comment about being scared....most, if not every single person i have talked to about open theism has expressed some fear, directly or indirectly, of the implications of an open future. The fact that God doesn't always get His way and that sometimes there aren't any specific reasons for why some things happen discomforts people. But since when are we allowed to make theology based on discomfort? -Dan Smith
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His eye is on the sparrow
| Posted On: 05/03/08 11:08:08 AM |
Age 61, MO |
"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your father. But the hairs of your head are all numbered." (Matthew 10:29-30). Since God is First Cause of all things, He knows the effect of all things. Even though He gives man free choice, God foreknows what each choice will be, and therefore the outcome of each. Actually the concept of past, present, and future are chronological concepts of time which God affords for human use, which presuppose an aging process. God does not age. He simply exists. God's time is always the time at hand. He is always present. He is the beginning and the end of all time, and everything in between. The Alpha and Omega. God is all in all. George Cancilla
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??
| Posted On: 05/02/08 10:55:49 PM |
Age 20, MN |
Perhaps I am asking the obvious, but what makes you ask John Piper is "scared of a universe where things don't always go as they should"?
Additionally, what exactly makes you assume that God can be sovereign and also not be able to know the future 100%? Your analogy really doesn't provide an argument, merely an explanation of what you mean. You aren't sovereign at your job, right? :) But seriously, how could God be actually sovereign (please define) and be ignorant (presumably you mean of the future)?
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limiting God
| Posted On: 05/01/08 08:09:14 PM |
Age 21, MN |
You would say that the God of open theism is limited by ignorance. I would say that you are limiting Him by insisting that He can't be sovereign and ignorant at the same time. For example, i work at a dining center at college, and i don't know who is going to come in and eat, when they will, when the rushes are going to be, or if they will come to my area of the dining center. But i have experience, and the eating tendencies of the students. I have a general idea of how much traffic i will get at the salad bar at once, and i have techniques and things set in place to manage various possibilities. And i succeed. I get the job done. I am still ignorant of some things. Now imagine my general knowledge, which is highly limited because of my localized existence and finite processing capacity, and then compare God's general knowledge, which is not limited by a localized existence or a finite processing capacity. With infinite intelligence and exact knowledge of ALL things past and present, i think ignorance is not a concern to God. Are you sure that you are not just scared of a universe where things don't always go as they should? -Dan Smith
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