About Foreknowledge
| Posted On: 07/26/09 09:48:16 PM |
Age 21, AL |
If God knows what will happen in the future: Man's wickedness and rebellion; How they fall and have been redeemed.
It's just like watching a movie a million times?
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The point is missed
| Posted On: 05/03/08 03:07:26 PM |
Age 53, MA |
YOu are missing the point. God is perfectly free to do what he wants. But because He is perfect He does not need to second guess Himself and rethink His positions or decrees. He even knew mna would get as bad as he did ini Genesis 6. Just look at the earth and the massive evidence for underground water oceans that spewed forth at teh flood. God premade these and stored them just for the flood!!!
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God is eternally NOW
| Posted On: 05/02/08 10:41:15 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Friend: Your arguement has no basis because God has no past, God has no future, God only has now. Therefore, whatever God chooses is what happened, is happening, and is what will happen NOW. Amen? John
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backwards causaton
| Posted On: 05/01/08 08:39:35 PM |
Age 56, MN |
That would be forward, no backwards. Going backwards to the beginning in causation Calvinisms least favorite place to be is; that if God knows every move and decision that makes Him (God) the cause of Sin and the fall. That doesn't square with scriptures description of the attributes of Yahweh.
Of course I believe that God knows the beginning from the end and the end result of all actions and decisions. That is why I believe that my original statements hold true.
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Backwards Causation
| Posted On: 05/01/08 09:57:43 AM |
Age 32, TX |
"God knows all the possible variants to all possible freewill choices we humans make"
I get what you are saying about God, the One true God, the Father of Jesus the Son of God who is also God, born of the virgin Mary, who led a sinless life, died our death on the cross to save us (those who believe and trust in Him) from our sin, rose from the gave on the 3rd day, ascended to the Father, now seated at the right hand interceding for us, who sent the Holy Spirit, the Third part of the Trinity, to help us and convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. (Just to show you that I am in fact a Christian)
But if God knew all of our possible choices He would still have to know what choice we would ultimately make. So what is the difference? If He didn't know our ultimate choice His plan for redemption, Jesus' death on the cross, would never have happened. If you counter and say, "Well God decided that He would make redemption happen instead of hoping that sooner or later the unbelievers would choose to crucify Jesus," well then that goes back to my first argument. How do we ever know if God knows a certain choice or if He is choosing not to know a certain choice? Backwards causation is impossible. You can not have the outcome (our choice) determine the cause (God choosing to know or not know our ultimate choice).
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Never able to know
| Posted On: 04/30/08 08:55:54 PM |
Age 56, MN |
This forum is too small to go deep. My first statements remain true; God knows all the possible variants to all possible freewill choices we humans make (this makes Him even more, if that is even possible, omniscient). When you insist on changing the statements I made to try and press your point; you simply reaffirm my statements about unsaved peoples distaste for christianity.
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Re..Is the future settled or open?
| Posted On: 04/30/08 06:48:08 PM |
Age 45, AR |
The point that Jesus made here has nothing to do with whether God has the ability to change the future or not. The point is that Jesus was setting an example in word and in deed to show us that He was in fact subservient to the will of the Father and has power over sin and death. He was not at all shakeable in His purpose to redeem His own predestined elect from the power of sin and death. And to prove His example of subservience He said, "Not My will, but Thy will be done." Proud and arrogant men who boast of having a free-will should take note that even the Son of God made His will subservient to the Father instead of vaunting forth some self-will of His own. But man had no choice about being born with a sin nature. And he has no choice about whether he will be one of the redeemed of the Lord. It is the Lord who paid the price of redemption for His Bride. The Bride did not decide to pay her own way of her own will. If a man has a will to follow God, then it is because God gave Him that will. Man's natural inclination is to reject God.
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Response to "Poor Scholarship"
| Posted On: 04/30/08 06:24:47 PM |
Age 45, AR |
P.S. I'm not sure from your comments that you believe in the principle of "Once saved, always saved," ie.. your reference to "the once saved, always saved crowd." But I can say with certainty that if a person believes that he can be saved and then lose his salvation, then such a person is not trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on Calvary for salvation. In fact, that person is trusting in his own works and never knew salvation to begin with. He figures if he can just be good enough, that God will accept him. God says that the best we can do is as filthy rags. This is why the doctrine of Election and Predestination are so fundamental to the faith. If Jesus Christ did it, then "It Is Finished." If man did it by good works or by abstaining from evil, then how can he ever know when it is enough? One sin is all it takes to send a man to hell and he is born with a sin nature. Only God can change a mans will. He cannot do it himself.
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Is the future settled or open?
| Posted On: 04/30/08 05:05:21 PM |
Age 25, CO |
The problem with the settled view (Calvinism and Arminianism) is that they deny God His freedom. If God is not free to do something new, do anything other than what He has determined or foreknows He will do, He's not free. When Jesus said He could call on His Father to provide Him with more than 12 legions of angels, that was real. The God of Calvinism or Arminianism could not have called more than 12 legions of angels because that was not part of His plan. With hindsight, assuming Calvinism or Arminianism are true, we know that God did not decree or foreknow some 12 legions of angels rescuing Christ from the cross. But Jesus tells us that His Father did indeed have the ability to do so. (Key word: ability.) This is something no Calvinist or Arminian has ever admitted, that God has the ability to change the future. If they did, they would basically be admitting that the future is open.
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Youth not a refutation
| Posted On: 04/30/08 02:10:34 PM |
Age 74, OR |
Paul commanded that no one should reject Timothy because of his youth. It is truth, not youth that is the issue. Calvin was a man of his time and the executions, etc. did not refute his exegesis of Scripture. Let's keep to the Word and not obfuscate with personalities.
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Never Able to Know.
| Posted On: 04/30/08 01:11:16 PM |
Age 32, TX |
"Dr. boyd's book… doesn't say that God can't know; only that he chooses not to so that our choices are truly free."
This argument does not follow. You say that God only chooses to know what He knows. If that were so, how are we to know what God has chosen to know? How do we decide in any given situation if God knows or if God is choosing not to know? The argument can never be resolved. Did God know that 9/11 was going to happen or did He choose not to know? How do we ever solve that problem? Who is it that gets to decide what God is choosing to know? Is it us? Is it you? Are you now the spokesman for God's preference of knowing or not knowing? This is just another attempt for people to make themselves the ultimate decision maker in the universe rather then God.
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1 Samuel Passages
| Posted On: 04/30/08 09:21:17 AM |
Age 29, KS |
When God is telling the Israelites that their king will be hard on them, he is not predicting that the king will disobey God. He doesn't regret making Saul king because he makes chariots and takes a tenth of the grain, etc., but because he doesn't follow God's instructions.
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Don't substitute common sense for obedience
| Posted On: 04/29/08 09:29:28 PM |
Age 45, AR |
Many assume that because they are personally incapable of understanding Gods plan of election, sovereignty and predestination, that such Bible verses should be ignored. They are so wrapped up in their own human will that they refuse to recognize God as sovereign. They use the old saw about predestination just making us all robots. The fact is that there is nothing free about a dead man, including his will. Only when one has been made alive in Christ can he be truly free. And one cannot make himself alive in Christ since only Christ has the power over sin and death. But when Christ brings this life, then a man has a new will that is subservient to Jesus Christ. Humanism is the religion which believes that man determines his own destiny by his own will. Christianity on the other hand is a relationship with Jesus Christ wherein man accepts Gods plan for his life and gives up his own will while recognizing that God is in control. A man can only be saved when he recognizes that he is lost without hope and cannot save himself through his own will. A man cannot be saved until he recognizes that his every inclination is to run from and rebel against God. The Bible says that there is none that seeketh after God and that all we like sheep have gone astray. The only thing mans so-called free-will ever did in relationship to God is to reject the Truth. Mans will cannot save him, but it can certainly condemn him.
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Just A Thought
| Posted On: 04/29/08 08:19:05 PM |
Age 40, NH |
If God can take the form of a finite being and lose the omnis (He grew in wisdom and stature) then it is possible that God can decide to not use some aspect of His power, knowledge and ight. I don't agree with Boyd or the others but the fact that we claim Jesus as 100% man and 100% deity and allow for Him to empty Himself of independent usage of His attributes (kenosis)and become part of a finite being, this also allows for the Father's ability to forgo some of His omnis if He so chose.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
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This subject, what God knows or does not know is way beyond our paygrade.
| Posted On: 04/29/08 04:01:12 PM |
Age 65, CA |
Common sense should tell us, at a minimum, that we cannot know what God knows, how He knows it, or whether or not He controls the universe by His knowledge or by His Power, and speculating on these question is senseless. You all are ignorant of the truth just as I am. But I know that I am ignorant, but most of you folks sound like you think you can understand God's workings just because you are aware that He exists. As for me, I don't want to ride God's horse...maybe some of you need to get back on your ponies.
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I've run across
| Posted On: 04/29/08 03:57:49 PM |
Age 29, TX |
...some people who try to evade the whole "God as an incompetent bungler" argument that logically arises as a result of believing God doesn't know everything. The most annoying of the theories (particularly annoying because I know the fellow online and he's quite brilliant and devout, so he should know better than to fall into this trap) is referred to as "voliscience" (his word). It means that God knows everything He CHOOSES to know. An attempt to describe it uses an analogy to human memory; but this is silly, because how would God choose to know something if He doesn't know that it needs knowing? LOGIC, people!--Mrs. Pilgrim
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re: Foreknowledge of God
| Posted On: 04/29/08 03:12:50 PM |
Age 49, SC |
The first post hits the nail on the head. Chuck Missler remind us often that God is outside our dimensions of time and space. He can see it all from beginning to end.
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Misunderstanding of Calvinism
| Posted On: 04/29/08 01:52:41 PM |
Age 19, CA |
Calvinism isn't composed of people following John Calvin. They share the same name because Calvin was one of the movement's first proponents. Also, Calvin published his Institutes when he was 27, not 23. And your criticisms concerning the way the article rebuts Dr. Boyd are unfounded. Boyd's error is too little systematic theology and too much exegesis (or, more likely, eisegesis), and the natural rebuttal to this problem is to refocus on the entire Bible instead of zooming so far into one particular passage. Certain passages, even in context, can seem to say things contrary to biblical teachings. For example, in 1 John 3:1-10, John essentially says that anyone who continues to sin is not really a Christian (see in particular verses 6 and 9). Now, you can examine this passage all you want in the local context of 1 John 3, but in order to get a better handle on the passage, you really need to consider the Bible as a whole. Similarly, in order to fully expose the error of open theism, one must consider the entire Bible.
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RETIRED
| Posted On: 04/29/08 01:12:38 PM |
Age 74, CO |
GOD IS OMNIPRESENT, OMNIPOTENT AND OMNISCIENT
HE KNOWS ALL,SEES ALL, AND IS ALL POWERFUL.CREATOR OF ALL SEEN AND UNSEEN.
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Poor Scholarship
| Posted On: 04/29/08 12:24:34 PM |
Age 32, NC |
"I, for one, cannot understand how God can decide what aspect of the future He chooses to foreknow unless the future is already laid open before His eyes (in which case all is foreknown)."
Mr. Boyd makes the same point that Calvinists have made for years; exhaustive foreknowledge equals exhaustive causation. Open theists agree with Calvinist regarding foreknowledge and causation. What the two disagree on is whether or not everything is exhaustively foreknown or exhaustively predetermined. Mr. Boyd, time and again, makes the case that some future events are foreknown as certainties and are therefore caused/predetermined, while other future events are contingencies which have yet to be realized. Open theism does not discredit God or His Word, it discredits Calvinism and the "Once saved, always saved" crowd.
This article is yet another example of the poor scholarship that has plagued this forum for quite some time.
Joe M
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