Back to the Beginning
| Posted On: 03/17/08 12:58:08 PM |
Age 47, IA |
I appreciate your thoughts. One point begs clarification however. In 1517 a German monk had no intention of setting out to re-invent anything. Reformation was not his intention. He simply made some observations as to how contrary to scripture the practice of indulgences were. His study of the scriptures lead him to this obvious and inescapable conclusion. Luther merely posted his thoughts on what was the chat blog of his day. The fact of the matter is that this situation existed then and still does because Catholicism was never the faith that was once for all handed down 2,000 years ago. Catholic Church history likes to ignore the important fact that from the very beginning of the church there have always been a remnant of believers in the world who have remained steadfast in that faith, and would continue to contend for it. The catholic church was/is a major persecuter of that remnant which is the true church. The scriptures alone are sufficient and complete to be the rule by which to judge all doctrine and the only mirror which is able to give us a true reflection of ourselves. The reformation was not man's attempt at re-inventing the faith. It was a move of God to bring more souls to salvation through the knowledge of the truth begun by revealing knowledge of what wasn't the truth, or in other words: exposing lies.
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The other, other side of the coin...
| Posted On: 03/13/08 01:43:53 PM |
Age 21, CA |
It strikes me as odd that so much criticism, and vindication of that criticism, is based on what is commonly called "Scripture alone" and "Faith alone." Yet it would surprise me if many of the of these concepts could articluate them based on the criteria that led to their formation in the sixteenth century. It seems to me that these too have become, in practice, "traditions of man," as the Biblical support for them has been widely neglected or misunderstood. In our historical moment, we struggle with what to do with the emergent church, and Mr. McDowell is correct to identify the presumption of reinventing the faith passed down for 2000 years. To grab hold of his coat-tails for a moment, it seems proper to pause and consider that in 1517, a German monk attempted to do just that. It would seem presumptuous, as well, to consider that THIS change marked the end of a period of rule "by the traditions of man," beginning at the death of the Revelator on Patmos, and that anything which should follow it ought to be anathem-pardon, gracefully inhibited. I ask, where is our modesty? Where is this mirror of truth we possess? And upon finding it, perhaps we too might take a long look at our doctrinal physique.
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Huh?
| Posted On: 03/12/08 07:50:12 AM |
Age 51, GA |
When did Jesus teach that we need to be tollerant of sin? When did Jesus preach that our good works get us to heaven? When did Jesus tell the "youth" groups to gather around "spirit candles" and think of Him? When did Jesus say: "Visualize Me hunkered in a corner of your room, waiting to spend some time with you"? When did Jesus say "When I hear your New Age drum-beats I will come to you"? Was Jesus on the cross when he said this Blood I'm spilling is not really important, it's your friendly attitude that I was looking for"?
Give me a break!
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Other side of the coin
| Posted On: 03/12/08 07:22:44 AM |
Age 47, MO |
I agree with your article and your plea to be on the look out. However, let's not forget the other side of the coin, which is just as dangerous, the side of tradition. Tradition says: "We've always done it this way, it seems pious so it must be right." However, everything in the world is entropic and error begets error, so the traditions we think we are following are not the same as our forefathers. This is why I always admonish the apathetic and those that think they got it all figured out. God does not desire our offerings, our traditions, or our work, God inhabits the praises that come from a pure heart. John
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Are We Talking About the Same Emergent Church?
| Posted On: 03/11/08 04:10:05 PM |
Age 61, MO |
I certainly don't see the "emergent church" as wanting to get back to the way Jesus intended. The visible "emergent church" seeks to have the Word of God conform to a human agenda, instead of humans conforming to the Word of God. Albeit, this error is not new to Christianity, but it has become hyper inflated in contemporary church times. Jesus Christ is not some mystical abstraction. He is the only One Living God. Humans are not a bunch of living gods to discover themselves by invoking trance like prayers or transcendental meditations. All the extra curricular gyrations employed by most of these emergent people will draw them no closer to Jesus than just plain old repentant belief. George Cancilla
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Amen
| Posted On: 03/11/08 03:23:01 PM |
Age 47, IA |
You are only 19, yet you display more wisdom and discernment relative to the Gospel and the doctrines of God than anyone of the authors I've read on this website. The fact is that God's Word is a two-edged sword. One edge cuts to the truth, the other exposes lies. Keep proclaiming the truth. God Bless you.
In Him,
47 in Iowa
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Yes!
| Posted On: 03/11/08 12:26:14 PM |
Age 54, WI |
Thank you Canada, 42, for mentioning "the pattern" that you see! As part of the emerging church, we see and feel it as well. Press on!
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Man's Traditions vs. Gods Truth
| Posted On: 03/11/08 12:02:18 PM |
Age 47, IA |
I appreciate Sean McDowell's denouncing and exposing of the Emergent Church for what it is: a false gospel. True saving faith in the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. This faith is a gift from God. It is not something that man can conjuor up, rethink, reinvent, etc., etc. Salvation is from the Lord. Man doesn't save himself by inventing his own truth. There is only one truth. The Gospel is not an idea, it is the truth. That truth is either believed unto life or not believed unto death. This is a judicial act. I find it amazingly ironic that Mr. Beckwith, the former president of the Evangelical Theological Society, is critical of a modern day perversion of the Gospel, but he now practices catholicism, an older perversion of the Gospel that is filled with the traditions of man. Traditions of men are not the traditions of God. They may be thousands of years old but error is error, heresy is heresy, no matter how old. Man's traditions make the cross of Christ of no effect. True Christians don't stand on the shoulder of giants, they stand on the Rock.
As far as the need for the Gospel to be contextualized to a changing culture, I disagree. Unregenerate man still has the wrath of God abiding on him. This wrath is still yet to come. Christ and Him Crucified is still man's only means to be saved from this judgement to come. These are truths of the Gospel that have not changed and therefore regardless of what the culture is doing the Gospel remains, as always, relevant,and our faith in it needs to remain steadfast.
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Frank Beckwith, Sean?
| Posted On: 03/11/08 11:16:24 AM |
Age 19, WI |
In making his point about changing the Gospel, I think Sean McDowell can do better than quote Frank Beckwith who rejects justification by faith alone, Scripture alone, Christ alone, and grace alone in his crossing the Tiber back to Rome. The Roman Catholics are experts at a changed Gospel and that's why we needed the Reformation! The Gospel in the hands of the popes had become unrecognizable. Now it's time for another Reformation, nearly 500 years later. The Gospel in the hands of Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Joel Osteen, Brian McLaren, Rob Bell and all their colleagues is unrecognizable. And by the way, Frank Beckwith is an apologist, Sean, but not for the biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith plus works is damnable heresy, and he is leading many young people astray into the bondage of Rome. How many martyrs of the Reformation burned at the stake over these issues, while today's evangelical leaders quote from the Roman Catholics to make their doctrinal points? Sad.
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God Will Use This For His Glory
| Posted On: 03/11/08 08:07:15 AM |
Age 51, GA |
The enemy is using a veriety-pak of seductions that are hand-picked and customized for each denomination, local church, ethnicity, prejudice, culture, tradition or whatever we have done our way. These are demonic spirits that were originally created with awesome supernatural "specialties" that were corrupted when they rebelled against their Creator. They are STILL supernatural beings that can only be stopped by our having a correct and pure relationship with our Creator. When and where we have allowed the Holy Spirit to do what Jesus promised He would do, the enemy has been powerless. As bad as these apostate moves (and they ARE bad) in the church are, we must seek to see where God is moving and remind ourselves that it has to be this way. It hurts but how else will the refined body come forth and be revealed. This is a "shaking" and a seperation. This has to be so there will be no question as to where our allegiances will be. We WILL sell-out to something. Our New Testament examples were not middle-of-the-road, wide-pathed churchies. They knew they would suffer to get this Testimony to us. There are Christians in other parts of the world that don't have a clue about this silly fluff that this country calls "church". These people have to actually depend on an old thing called "faith" for survival. What does this "80% Christian" amusement park country need with faith? We can make a phone call and have a meal at our front door in 30 minutes! Our faith-dependant brothers in socialist countries hear a voice in the middle of the night that leads them to secret places to worship together. Gods miracles didn't stop 2,000 years ago, we did. We will soon see just what a remnant of believers there actually is in this country. We will see if that 80% poll number holds true when we face going to prison for speaking the name of Christ. To be completely honest, I'm not sure I can turn my back on my loved-ones or loved-things when this happens. God help me to stay in correct and intimate fellowship with you, so I can hear that still, small voice in my hour of need. Our fence-riding days are over and the "State Church" will be at the other end of that wide, easy, emergent, seeker-friendly path.
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Concerns...
| Posted On: 03/11/08 07:53:01 AM |
Age 42, CANADA |
You have some valid points, and your statement that "It strikes me as extremely presumptuous to attempt to reinvent a faith that has been passed down for over 2,000 years" is a valid concern - if indeed the faith had been passed down for 200 years, unchanged.
The reality is that the faith we practice in Christianity today, in most churches of any denomination, is a far cry from what the first followers of Jesus practiced. The problem is that it has been a very gradual, and mostly unintended, change. We don't realize this, as we have been "taught" to believe and interpret the Bible in a manner that fits our Christian practices.
Yes, we need to look back at history, look at the lives of the "spiritual giants" who went before us, and learn from them, but we should not blindly follow traditions without investigating whether they are really from God or man.
The emerging church simply has the courage (or nerve, or audacity - depending on how you look at it) to want to get back to what Jesus really intended, even if that does contradict some man-made traditions, beliefs, and interpretations that have been introduced over the past 200 years.
Why is it that when people question religious authorities in the same way Jesus did in his day, those authorities get upset? Do you notice a pattern?
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