THE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST NOT BOUND BY TIME
| Posted On: 01/15/08 01:02:45 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Dear friend; You say, Jesus never said that he brings a new covenant. If you can provide the Scriptural reference(s) for your position, please do so. Well here are a few; if you need more simply ask and i will provide more.
Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the NEW COVENANT in my blood, which is poured out for you. 1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the NEW COVENANT in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
2 Corinthians 2:12 [ Ministers of the New Covenant ] Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, 2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a NEW COVENANT—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:7 [ The Glory of the New Covenant ] Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, Hebrews 8:1 [ The High Priest of a New Covenant ] The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, Hebrews 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said [ Some manuscripts may be translated fault and said to the people.] : "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Hebrews 8:13 By calling this COVENANT "NEW," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a NEW COVENANT, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a NEW COVENANT, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel -- This NEW COVENANT was the NEW COVENANT of the blood of Jesus to replace the COVENANT of the law. For the law also included a promise that if one would obey it then they would be accepted by God. It also had a provision in the law to receive forgiveness for their sins if they were obedient to God ( trust God to remove the sin) by the shedding of blood. But this NEW COVENANT was not really new. For God had already made a COVENANT with Abraham that Abraham was made righteous by Abraham trusting in God. So this NEW COVENANT was not really new but was the same as the COVENANT given to Abraham. That is why Abraham was called the father of our faith. For as God says in The Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. The Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ is not bound by time for if it was, we would be born too late for it to apply to us. But the cross reaches back to Enoch and forward to us. Lou
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Covenant versus Law confusion
| Posted On: 01/15/08 09:51:52 AM |
Age 45, MN |
A humble correction to your post.
Jesus never said that he brings a new covenant. If you can provide the Scriptural reference(s) for your position, please do so. Secondly you confuse covenants (any of them) with the Law of God. A covenant is not the Law. One does not abrogate the other; rather they are dependent upon one another in that the laws of a covenant define the covenant. Also, the Abrahamic covenant is part of the Law (Torah) of Moses. This should not be confused with the Sinai Covenant, which it seems you confuse with the Law of Moses, yet is part of the Law of Moses. The New Covenant that most Christians erroneously tout as replacing the Law of Moses is the New covenant that many of the Prophets speak of, and Jeremiah succinctly speaks of in chapter 31. One, who reads this chapter, will notice that it is a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. This new covenant is not a covenant made with Christians or with any church (unless one employs the erroneous doctrine of supercessionism, i.e. replacement theology). One should also note that a promise of this new covenant is that the Law (Torah in Hebrew) is written on the heart of the covenant member (verse 33). This new covenant is the very same new covenant that is quoted by the author of Hebrews (8:8), and spoken of by Jesus (Luke 22:20). There is a new covenant, but the Laws (Torah) of God as applying to this covenant do not change, the heart of the covenant member does (verse 34). And most assuredly, this is a new covenant in difference from any before, not like the Abrahamic OR Sinai covenants (31:32).
Thirdly, if you continue to read the Revelation 13 passage you quote, you will note that there are those who do not worship the beast (verse 15). Therefore "all inhabitants of the earth" will NOT worship the beast.
However, I don't follow how this is a proof text implying the validity of the new covenant in opposition to the Law of Moses when Jeremiah and the author of the book of Hebrews clearly state that they are integral?
But I do agree with your last statement, these ancient laws from before the creation of the world are the very same Laws that God commanded Moses to write (Ex 34:27) down for the mixed multitude in the wilderness (Ex 12:38), to be faithfully taught to future generations (6:4-9), and of this Law Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away until heaven and earth pass away (Mat 5:17-19). Why? Because His Laws (Torah) define His unchanging, eternal character. Psalms 119:89 - Forever, O LORD, Your Word is settled in heaven. Psalms 119:142 - Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your Torah is truth.
I encourage you to validate what you post (and what you are taught elsewhere) with what the Word actually says. Blessings
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WHO WAS THE GREAT KING
| Posted On: 01/14/08 11:59:53 AM |
Age 64, OH |
As to the city of Jerusalem:You can listen rabbis bit i will quote God himself: Psalm 48:2 It is beautiful in its loftiness, the joy of the whole earth. Like the utmost heights of Zaphon is Mount Zion, the city of the Great King.--- Matthew 5:35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.--- Malachi 1:14 For I am a great king," says the LORD Almighty, "and my name is to be feared among the nations. -- Jerusalem is the city of The great King as referred to by Jesus Himself. When did this One and Only One Great King rule in Jerusalem. Jesus is going to return to rule the City that He once before ruled. He was the King of Righteousness and there is NO OTHER. He is the King of Peace and there is NO OTHER. He is a King and Priest of God Most High FOREVER and there is NO OTHER. Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD, your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;-- 43:10 Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.-- Lou
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WHO WAS MELCHIZEDEK
| Posted On: 01/14/08 11:37:22 AM |
Age 64, OH |
What are the unique attributes of God Almighty. 1- no beginning and no end 2- no father and no mother 3- the power of an indestructible life. NO ONE but God Almighty has these attributes. Now look in Hebrews 7 and you will see that Melchizedek is listed as having these same attributes. A child can reason that Melchizedek is God Almighty, but the most learned man who has determined to justify his position will not be able to see it. God has revealed His secrets to His friends while they are hid to the ones wise in their own eyes. No man was allowed to be both King and Priest. this is why the kingdom was taken from Saul. Saul tried to be both king and priest and Samuel told him God would take the kingdom from Saul for this. But Melchizedek IS both King of Salem and priest of God Most High. Jesus was BOTH King and Priest. look at Ps 110 4 The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek." So Jesus is a Priest FOREVER AND SO IS MELCHIZEDEK. Forever means in to the future and also forever into the past. there is One and Only One who is FOREVER and that is God Almighty. Melchizedek is on the same rank as Jesus. But NO ONE is on the same rank as Jesus except Jesus. God has made it easy to see that melchizedek is someone special and above men. Men have used this as the Mormons to try to say that some Mormons are above other men. They have the Melchizedek priesthood to put some men above others. but they have been caught in their own trap for there is Only One that is above us and that is God Almighty or the Lord Jesus. the Mormons have made the terrible mistake of calling themselves Jesus Christ. For Melchizedek is the Lord Jesus. If we humble ourselves before Jesus He will show us the Truth. if we try to justify ourselves and our beliefs, we will be unable to see the truth. It is only those who confessed their blindness that were healed and made to see. A blind man named Lou.
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BREAD AND WINE
| Posted On: 01/14/08 11:08:23 AM |
Age 64, OH |
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem [d] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator [e] of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be [f] God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand."
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything. -- It matters not what men say of Melchizedek but let look at what God says about Him. 1st Melchizedek was priest of God Most High. there is Only One God and certainly the One and Only God is The Most High. He brought out bread and wine and served then to Abraham. Jesus served His disciples bread and wine at the last supper. It is a symbol of the fact that God serves us and no man will come to God unless he receives this service of God to himself. Or as Jesus said; we must drink of His blood and eat of His body to have life. We are not saved by our own efforts but it by the effort of God that we are saved. A Man walks out of a city and serves Abraham bread and wine; and Abraham eats it and drinks it. It shows us that Abraham trusts this Melchizedek with his life. He did not fear the bread and wine would bring him death. It also shows that it is Melchizedek that sustains Abraham not Abraham that sustains Melchizedek. look at the difference of how Abraham responded to Melchizedek and to the King of Sodom. Abraham would not even TOUCH his shoelace, but Abraham drank this Kings wine. But the whole communion thing is to show that God accepts us who trust Him to save us. God brings us bread and wine. this is a symbol of the body broken for us and the blood poured out for us. If we eat of this bread and drink of this wine it is a symbol that we accept what God has done for us. We accept that His body (Jesus) was broken for us and that without that we can not be saved. we accept that God poured out His blood for us (the blood of Jesus Christ) and without that we can not be saved. We trust Him to save us. We trust Him to nourish us. Abraham was trusting Melchizedek to nourish him and to substain his life with bread and wine. but the King of Sodom, Abraham would not even touch. Lou
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JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED BASED ON ANICIENT LAWS FROM BEFORE CREATION
| Posted On: 01/12/08 03:25:25 AM |
Age 64, OH |
Jesus said I bring to you a new covenant but not really new. The new covenant was new according to the covenant of Moses or the law. but it was not really new according to the one God had given Abraham and others before the law of Moses. Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.- God has never changed and never will change. All that Jesus did was based on very old and ancient laws from before the creation of the world. Lou
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Corrections
| Posted On: 01/11/08 10:35:48 AM |
Age 45, MN |
Blessings Lou,
I see that you have a spirit for the LORD, but I would like to humbly correct some errors in your response to Be Berean above.
You are certainly correct to say that Abraham was saved. God saved Abraham (Gen 15:7, Neh 4:7) from his idolatrous family (Josh 24:2) and because of his faithfulness (Gen 18:19), promised him an inheritance of land and a people (Gen 24:7). According to Paul, believers are part of this inheritance (part of the family) too (Gal 3:29). But Abraham was not a Christian, just as Jesus was not a Christian. This understanding would be historically, as well as linguistically in error.
Secondly, the serving of bread and wine (Gen 14:18) by Melchizedek is a sign of hospitality, not communion. The word communion does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Communion's history is that of a sacrament in the Catholic Church. Saying that the bread and wine offered to Abraham by Melchizedek is communion is an illustration of an errant hermeneutical principal known as eisegesis. Eisegesis is taking a latent understanding or interpretation of an event or occurrence and applying it back into the text. In so doing, one can make the text mean anything one wants.
Thirdly, no where in Scripture does it say that Melchizedek is the preincarnate Messiah. He may certainly prefigure and/or illustrate the nature of Messiah, Just as John's nature is that of Elijah, but to say that he IS Jesus borrows from eastern mysticism's concept of reincarnation. This understanding stands in difference to the teachings of Scripture, Hebrews 9:7 - And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Fourthly, your interpretation of the name Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) is almost accurate. A Midrashic interpretation in Genesis Rabba explains that Abraham came to the city that was then called Shalem after rescuing Lot. Upon arrival, he asked the king and high priest Melchizedek to bless him, and Melchizedek did so in the name of God (indicating that he, like Abraham, was a monotheist). This encounter between Melchizedek and Abraham was commemorated by renaming the city in their honor: the name Yeru (derived from Yireh, the name Abraham gave to the Temple Mount) was combined with Shalem, producing Yeru-Shalem, meaning the "city of Shalem," or "founded by Shalem." If shalem means "complete," or "without defect, " Yerushalayim would mean the "perfect city," or "the city of he who is perfect". The ending -im indicates the plural in Hebrew grammar and -ayim the dual, leading to an interpretation of the name as representing two facets of the city, such as two hills.
Fifthly, the title King of Righteousness is to be applied to all of the Kings of Israel as illustrated here in 1 Kings, referring to Solomon, 1 Kings 10:9 - "Blessed be the LORD your God who delighted in you to set you on the throne of Israel; because the LORD loved Israel forever, therefore He made you king, to do justice and righteousness." The Kings of Israel are also called Sons of God as well, 2 Samuel 7:14 - "I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men." While God is certainly THE King of Righteousness, this title also applies to His Son, as Jesus properly defines righteousness, and is THE Son of God.
Sixthly, the Spirit of God (Ruach) is never mentioned in the Genesis account of Abraham, nor is it spoken of Abraham anywhere in the Bible. The FAITH of Abraham for sure, but never that of Abraham being "Spirit Filled." One can certainly say or believe anything they want, but validating those statements and beliefs with Scripture is part of the walk of being a faithful disciple of Jesus.
As the poster above indicates, be a Berean, Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Blessings
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ABRAHAM WAS SAVED
| Posted On: 01/10/08 02:37:58 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Abraham was the father of our faith so was a Christian. Melchizedek served Abraham bread and wine or communion. Melchezedek was the preincarnate Jesus Christ. this is why Jerusalem is called the City of The great King. Melchizedek was the King of Righteousness and Only God Almighty qualifies for that title. Jesus called Abraham from UR by His Holy Spirit to Jerusalem to Himself. Abraham was a Spirit filled Christian and so is the father of our faith. Lou
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POINTS TO PONDER
| Posted On: 01/10/08 02:28:31 PM |
Age 64, OH |
these are some good points to think on Lou
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Be Berean
| Posted On: 01/10/08 11:51:39 AM |
Age 46, MN |
Read 1/9/08 feedback "Covenant vs Law Confusion" again (different writer). It is based on scripture, and although it may be foreign to many readers, it speaks of the cohesiveness of the Old and New. It is not contradictory as much of the Christian church teaches. Don't throw it out or dismiss it.
There are Salvation issues first that Jesus is the Christ, and Following issues second about following The Way (see Mt 5:17-19 again).
Don't believe it? Ask these questions, How could Jesus (Yeshua is his hebrew name meaning Salvation) be the perfect Lamb of G_d, which means He followed G_d's commands perfectly, and not follow G_d's laws? If you say that He did break some (if one breaks any part of the torah, he has broken them all), then He cannot be the Christ per Deut 18:15, and our faith is in vain. Scripture answers this for us anyway, He was never accused by the Sanhedrin of breaking ANY laws (yes, even Sabbath). Check it out. To command in Mt 28 then, to all the nations to baptize and follow ALL that He has commanded takes on a different meaning, does it not? (See Mt 5:17-19 yet again).
Or how about this one - G-d does NOT change, and in Hebrews it says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and always. He does not change. He and the Father are One. But if things changed as the author claims, then doesn't that make these statements false? Does G_d lie? Then it would follow that there would be a mean, disciplinary un-understanding, almost cruel Old Testament G_d that punished Israel for 3000 yrs only to give up on them (open theistic) vs. the loving, compassionate serving Lord of the New?
Or how about this one, the author spoke of the Jews beoming a testimony of failure to keep His covenant, and Jesus changed things. So therefore, is Jesus' death and resurrection time bound? - or rather, is salvation only open to those of us alive After His resurrection that accept Him, and those that lived before He came, oh well, too bad so sad? No, Scripture is clear according to the Book of Hebrews about David, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Noah... Jesus death and resurrection and saving power is not time bound!
I first thought that the 4 Gospels of the New Testament were the center of the Bible, but discovered that the Torah or Pentateuch (first 5 books) are the center. Yeshua is the shadow of the Torah, and is the Living Torah. He brought real understanding and definition to the lost sheep of Israel, which we are to pass on to the nations. If you don't believe this, try to disprove it. Ask Him in His Name, be open, be Berean and get ready for a ride.
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Picking and Choosing
| Posted On: 01/10/08 10:25:57 AM |
Age 45, MN |
It is quite a stretch to take one statement of Jesus' and form an entire dogma out of it. When Jesus says that "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." This does not mean that He can speak presumptuously or in difference to any of the words of His Father or the Word of God through His prophets preceding Him. Jesus can do nothing apart from what the Father does,
John 5:19 - Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 10:37-38 - "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."
Heb 1:3a - And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
God says that He never changes; therefore the Son must be of the exact nature,
Malachi 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
Jesus does not speak any different than any of the prophets preceding Him.
Secondly, let’s examine just some of the commandments that Jesus taught His disciples (besides those mentioned in this article) that Christians ignore today.
Observing Passover (John 2:23), a commandment, and the four cups (rabbinic tradition), not drinking the last cup until Jesus' return, especially with Paul's exhortation for his followers to "do this in remembrances of him." (1 Cor 11:25)
Observing Hanukkah (Dedication, a tradition). (John 10:22)
Observing Shavuot (Pentecost, a commandment). (Acts 2:1)
Observing Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles or Booths, a commandment). John 7:14
Observing the Sabbath day (7th day, a commandment). Luke 4:16, Matthew 24:20
Honoring a Sabbath's journey (a traditional interpretation of a commandment). Acts 1:12
Jesus said in Matthew 23 to follow the teachings of those who seat themselves at the seat of Moses...who were these teachers?
Observing the Law (Torah). (Matthew 19:17-19; John 14:15)
Observing even the least of the commandments of His Father. (Mat 19:17-19)
Wearing one's fringes short, and phylacteries small (one a commandment, the second a traditional interpretation of a commandment). (Mat 23:5)
Jesus taught the authority of the writings of Moses (a commandment). (John 5:45-47)
There are more, but most Dispensationalists regularly pick and choose what they call "laws" (Numbers 15:16) and segregate the "church" from Israel (Ephesians 2:11-13), in difference to what Scripture says,
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all...
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BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE IMPORTANT ONE
| Posted On: 01/09/08 03:44:41 PM |
Age 64, OH |
I have no objection to people being completely dunked in water as long as it is made clear that it does not save and is not necessary for salvation. But as to your point about baptism: yes baptism means to completely immerse but in what is the question. Jesus does NOT SAY WATER. John said he baptized in water and Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit and fire. Which do you think is the most important baptism: that of water or that of the Holy Spirit. Lou
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Covenant versus Law Confusion
| Posted On: 01/09/08 02:00:42 PM |
Age 45, MN |
After reading this article, one should ask himself, which old covenant; the covenant between God and Noah, with Abram, with Isaac, with Jacob, with the descendants of Jacob, with David, or the old covenant between Hiram and Solomon? Are all of these old covenants made with Jews, as the author implies? Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not Jews. Descendants of Judah are Jews. Besides, all those who leave Egypt are not all Jews, a mixed multitude followed Moses into the wilderness (Ex 12:38) and on to Sinai. Caleb, one of only two to leave Egypt and enter the Promised Land is not a descendant of Israel at all. So, does God's covenantal status not apply to him?
Secondly, the author is confusing covenants with laws. The laws given to the descendants of Israel at Sinai and in the wilderness are the same laws that apply to the New Covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-33. Can Jesus introduce new commandments, or as the King of Israel (Deut 17:14-20) deviate from the Law that Moses gave? The answer is no-that would disqualify Jesus from being the Messiah of Israel.
God instructs His people in Deuteronomy 4:2: "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." This is repeated in Deuteronomy 12:32 as well. In John 6:14 and 7:40 Jesus is referred to as The Prophet. This is The Prophet that Moses foretold of in Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." Therefore, this prophet, Jesus, must speak as prophesied about Him concerning God's Word, just as Moses would, ‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him." (Deut 18:19) God's Word is comprised of all of His laws and covenants, He said to them, "Take to your heart all the words with which I am warning you today, which you shall command your sons to observe carefully, even all the words of this law.”For it is not an idle word for you; indeed it is your life. And by this word you will prolong your days in the land, which you are about to cross the Jordan to possess." (Deut 32:46, 47) God's Word is life. God does not change (Malachi 3:6), therefore his covenant promises contained in His Word do not change.
Jesus confirms the eternal validity of all of the laws in the books of Moses in Matthew chapter 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of the commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
This is not to be confused with the proper interpretation of how to walk out the commandments (laws) of God. Jesus is involved in the major debates of His day, such as 1. Mt 19:3 - "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?"
2. Lu 14:3 - "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath," Which is a subset of "What constitutes work?" Joh 5:10 - "...it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet."
3. Lu 10:29 - "...who is my neighbor?"
4. Mt 22:36 - "Which is the great commandment in the Torah?"
5. Mt 22:17 - "Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?"
Jesus’ responses to these questions are all matters of proper interpretation of the Law of God, not new laws.
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???
| Posted On: 01/09/08 12:31:42 PM |
Age 47, MO |
Is this a test?
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