ALL CHRISTIANS DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES
| Posted On: 01/08/08 01:32:53 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Dear friend; two things i have learned about tongues. One is that by far the most times I have heard tongues I feel were in the flesh and not of God. Two- there is a genuine gift from God of tongues. But the scripture plainly says in 1 Cor 12: 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts. - The answer to this Paul thought was obvious, NO. All are not apostles and all do not speak in tongues. Lou
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The Falling Away
| Posted On: 01/07/08 11:50:31 AM |
Age 59, VA |
To 53 Va-Read my post on 1/04/08 at 9:51 am "The Great Falling Away." We have to take the whole of scripture into consideration.
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Every Believer has the Holy Spirit
| Posted On: 01/07/08 11:35:49 AM |
Age 59, VA |
To 47 in GA-There are some Christians in every part of the Body of Christ that are in error without being heretics. To tell you, even though I do speak in tongues, that you are not saved because you don't is not true and serious error. And it really upsets me that there are people who call themselves Christians who would tell you that. Nowhere can you find anything in scripture that even remotely indicates that. There is not one scripture that we could both read that you might interpret one way and me another that would indicate that it might "possibly" be true. Those with whom I have fellowshipped over the 30 years that I have been a Christian agree that it is an event subsequent to salvation. It does not save you and without it you are still saved. It is these things that cause us to divide and it should not be so. I fellowship with those who do not speak in tongues and those that do. My relationship with another Christian or my relationship with Jesus does not hinge on it. I believe my relationship with Jesus is enhanced by it but only if I do not make it a bone of contention with others. This and OSAS are important to each of us, but should not divide us. It is when the kooks crawl out of the woodwork and start spouting off stuff like you have said that we get offended.
When people make statements to others like you have said (another one is that those who believe in OSAS say they/others have been told by someone who does not believe in OSAS that they can get saved again and again) it reminds me of the kooky group that claims to be Baptist, who goes around to the funerals of fallen soldiers with their atrocious signs and chants during a time of mourning. Do I blame the entire Baptist Denomination for this horrific behavior? No way. Nor is the entire Charismatic and Pentecostal movement out to lunch. There are many solid, stable, wonderful, God fearing Christians in both of those movements, as there are in the other parts of the Body of Christ.
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choose who you will serve
| Posted On: 01/07/08 12:57:49 AM |
Age 59, VA |
To 53 Va, It is not a lie. I agree, His promise to me is " He will keep me..." but I have a free will. Just like He said to the Isrealites, "choose" ! He does all things that are good for me. I have the ability to botch that up. Again, for those who are determined that this is not so, I can't convince them otherwise. I am not going to tell someone they can walk the isle, get saved and live whatever way they want to because "God will keep them." I am just not going to do it. Personally I don't understand the fixation. I accept that I am saved and I now concern myself with trying to please Him and obey Him.
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Just how do you "lose" salvation?
| Posted On: 01/06/08 03:22:43 PM |
Age 33, PA |
The Bible says that when one is saved, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the end. It says "nothing" can separate us from God when we are saved. If Christ's death on the Cross and calling "His Own" to Him is not an eternal salvation, then it is in vain. Christ died for All of our sins, including those that you might consider sins bad enough to make us "lose" salvation. Salvation is not of our own works, good OR bad...it is a gift from God DESPITE our sin. We cannot lose what God has given us. Either we have been given Salvation and keep it...or we have never been given it at all. The Bible fully supports that.
Our doubting whether a person is saved, or has lost their salvation is our human reasoning based on what we see in them. Too often our thoughts on salvation come from our feelings or observances, and NOT from scripture.
It is a mystery how Election and Free Will fully work together, and no mortal man can be sure we know the answer to that, as the Bible says that some things are for God and not man to know and that Salvation is a mystery. We may not know why a person has or has not salvation (Free Will / Election / Combination of that), but we can be assured that once We are sealed by the Spirit and Salvation is granted, that it is not lost. All scripture supports that.
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accusations
| Posted On: 01/05/08 12:13:39 PM |
Age 47, GA |
One day I was speaking to a self-proclaimed brother in the Lord. He told me in no uncertain terms that I was not saved because I did not speak in tongues. He then said that we can lose our salvation if there is any sin in our lives. So I asked him if a Christian, for example, caused a wreck because of his own anger and carelessness...cussed real good right before the crash, and then died...would this "Christian" go to heaven. He said "No." But he felt that God might give the Christian a way to repent before he actually died. This is what this man's church teaches, a charismatic ministry. How sad that a church would be so far away from the heart of the gospel, that it is not my righteousness that saves me.
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HANG ONTO YOUR LIFE AND DIE - GIVE UP YOUR LIFE AND LIVE
| Posted On: 01/05/08 09:46:50 AM |
Age 64, OH |
Jesus said whoever hangs onto their life will lose it and whoever gives up their life will gain life. Jesus is not a liar and also not ever wrong. So whoever goes through some process by which they profess that they are saved and does not give up their whole life truly to The Lord Jesus Christ will lose their life. This is SURE to happen because Jesus said so. Whoever truly gives their life to the Lord Jesus Christ can be sure if they really meant this in their heart that he will take their life. If Jesus holds the life of any person in His hand He is ABLE TO SAVE and none of these will ever be lost. But all creation groans for the sons of God to be revealed. We are all part of creation so NOT ONE OF US KNOWS WHO ARE THE SONS OF GOD. Only Jesus our Judge knows who have given their life to Him. There are many who profess to be following Jesus Christ but those who have not truly given their life and in their walk in "Christianity" do not come to a point where they do give their whole life to Jesus; THEY WILL FALL AWAY. Both are sure things. Those who give their life can not ever be lost. Those who do not truly give their life to Jesus are sure to be lost. Lou
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Lose your salvation????
| Posted On: 01/05/08 06:28:42 AM |
Age 53, VA |
Have you considered 1 Corinthians 1:8-9:
"He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful." God keeps us saved we don't get ourselves saved nor do we keep ourselves saved. If we can lose our salvation then this verse is a lie.
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what ever happened to backslid?
| Posted On: 01/04/08 02:39:00 PM |
Age 59, VA |
To age 33 Pa, I do not believe in OSAS but if I had known you when you were young and when you went through your sinning stage, I would never have thought you a TARE. I would have said you had backslid. Scriputure tells us Jesus will send and angel to seperate the wheat from the tares, therefore I can not know who is one. But I do know they are amoung us and I do know there will be those who once professed Jesus who will lose their salvation. It is not for me to know who they are but it is a warning that it will/is happening.
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No one teaches a revolving door!
| Posted On: 01/04/08 02:21:46 PM |
Age 59, VA |
What upsets me is when I hear there is a revolving door salvation. I am not an adherent of OSAS and I have been in the Pentecostal, Charasmatic part of the Body of Christ for 3o years. I have talked with many pastors and taught many Christians. I have never ever heard a single Pastor or teacher say that one can get saved and lose their salvation and get saved again. I have heard, however, many new Christains say things to the effect that they were saved when they were little and then got saved again." And when I hear it, I instruct them that they can not get saved, lose their salvation and get saved again. I tell them they may have gotten saved and backslid and then rededicated, but I do not know one Pastor or teacher that believes one can lose their salvation ever say, "you can get saved again." That is the foolish, immature, thinking of an unlearned Christian. Those of us who do not believe OSAS, are adamant that you can not get saved again, if you ever lose your salvation.
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JESUS ALONE IS THE JUDGE
| Posted On: 01/04/08 12:58:45 PM |
Age 64, OH |
AMEN - it is not our job and anyone who takes on the job as JUDGE is calling himself JESUS CHRIST. Lou
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JESUS CHRSIT CRUCIFIED
| Posted On: 01/04/08 12:56:01 PM |
Age 64, OH |
AMEN, AMEN Paul says he wanted to preach nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Lou
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The Great Falling Away
| Posted On: 01/04/08 09:51:02 AM |
Age 59, VA |
You left out the part about those who "fall away from the faith." I suppose to the OSAS and the middle of the roaders, this is speaking of those who weren't really saved but rather those who just "brushed up against" salvation but didn't really enter in. I guess they "almost got there" but fell away before they did. Gee, I would have thought, if that were the case, why even talk about it? Jesus has already told us that there has always been a wide road to destruction that most follow! So, then, there is going to be an end time move so large that He calls it "the GREAT Falling Away" which really is just a bunch of people who never got saved? I don’t think so. Talk about defying logic! Ceaseless debates? I agree, but will I take warning? You bet. Am I assured of my salvation? You bet. Will God leave me? Never! Will many leave God? I believe the scriptures indicate there will be a Great Falling Away of those who professed Him and knew Him and at some point denied Him. Can I make the determination that they are? NO. Can I make the determination who it is that is praying to God in the wee hours of the night, crying out with repentance for deliverance in the midst of their sin? No, only God can see the heart. Can I be warned that many who once new Him, will deny Him and fall away from Him. Yes, and I do. Is it useful to me to think that I might be able to fall away? I think so. If it is true and the bible says it is going to happen, then I think it is useful. Since it is not spelled out who they are, I best take warning that it could be me! If I don’t think I can be deceived, I can, or why else does scripture tell us to be wise to the wiles of the enemy? So I examine myself and work out my salvation with fear and trembling, so that I can finish this race and not be deceived into thinking I could never be one of those who will fall away. Do I walk on pins and needles, scared and anxious because I might fall away. No, I am secure but sober in knowing that obedience is better than sacrifice, grace is not for me to take advantage of because sin abounds, and the devil roams about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour and I am not above his tricks. Who is right? We will find out when we see him face to face. Do I separate from those who think otherwise? Of course not. “ In the essentials unity, in the non-essentials liberty, but in all things love.”
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Lots of excellent posts. But is this "blood boiling?"
| Posted On: 01/04/08 08:48:57 AM |
Age 53, VA |
All the posts previous to mine are excellent. In summary none of us can be sure of someone else's salvation. Christ as savior and preaching his gospel are key. However, this article is about labeling the questioning of someone's salvation as a "blood boiling" event. In the article the author asks how we are to regard someone who followed hard after Christ for up to 50 years and then fell away. I too would be flummoxed about a 50 year long effort, but the Bible says that those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 24:13). The Apostle Paul in 2 Cor. 13:5 challenged the Corinthians as to whether they were in the faith. The Apostle John reported about those who "left" as never having been one of them (i.e. Judas). I've known several people who for many years by all appearances were born again, but now they don't want to have anything to do with Christianity. The Bible doesn't seem to consider challenging one's faith as a "blood boiling" event. Maybe I've missed something in this article. Is the author saying that we should never consider that one of the reasons for a lack of fruit or that someone has fallen away might be because they were never saved (as John says, "never one of us") and if anyone verbalizes this possibilty it should cause our "blood to boil?"
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Wheat and Tares
| Posted On: 01/03/08 09:35:47 PM |
Age 33, PA |
I agree with much of what you said in your piece, however, I dont think it is wrong for people to wonder whether someone was truly saved when they fall away. If they are doing it in judgement, that is a problem. However, since we do not know everything about salvation (the Bible says it is a mystery), and there are good arguments for both the eternal salvation and revolving door models of thought (I do believe the Bible teaches that once we are saved, we are always saved by God's seal of the Holy Spirit), it is only natural for Christians to try to work out this mystery.
I was saved as a young girl. I dont have a phenominal testimony of 100% change after salvation. After all, I was 6. I had not committed adultery, had sex before marriage, done drugs, hurt people etc., from which I had to turn, but I did realize my sinful state and my need for Jesus to forgive me of my sins. I can recall being grieved that Jesus died for me. I had the faith of a child and believe it was a saving faith. For my entire life from that time, I had the conviction of the Holy Spirit when I fell into sin or was tempted to sin. However, as I grew into a teenager and young adult, I let the "world" influence me to the point that I failed to keep the Bible and God on my mind and heart on a daily basis. I prayed, but did not put God 1st. I was saved...still had the Holy Spirit, but I did sin often, and sometimes, mad at God for not making things easy for me in life, I chose sin knowing that I dishonored God. I am ashamed for that, and should be. However, through that time, I still felt God tugging at my heart and convicting me daily to turn back to obedience in Him. The Holy Spirit won, and I turned from a continual lifestyle of sin back to Jesus. I am still not perfect, and sin still, but I am saved. People may have asked was I saved...I did not appear to be. But God saw me as the Wheat when others saw me as a Tare. By His Grace, He kept me in Him, even when I was so far from deserving it based on my sin.
I also have a sister who proclaimed to the church that she asked Jesus into her heart. I thought she was saved, but never really saw fruit. A couple of years ago, she converted to Islam and vehemently denies Jesus Christ is God. Since I do believe in Eternal Security and have had a period of falling away, I have wrestled with my mind to understand how my sister could deny Christ if she was saved. So...I ask myself, "Was she ever really saved?" Not to judge her salvation, but because she clearly in what I can see is not saved based on her denial of Christ. Maybe she was saved, but it does not seem likely. I believe she was a Tare who looked like Wheat since she now clearly Blashphemes Jesus. I am not trying to have it both ways, but I think her "making a decision for Jesus" while maybe not ever fully understanding or living out what that means, may have been an emotional decision rather than a true conversion and commitment to Jesus as Savior AND Lord.
The bottom line is that only God truly knows whether she is Wheat that is just really into sin or a Tare that appeared saved, but whose lack of fruit shows otherwise. It is not our place to "judge" a person's salvation, despite the sin we see in their lives. Noone can truly know the state of another human being. And we should all continue to pray, as I do for my sister, that anyone whose salvation we doubt, becomes saved or repents from their rebellion from God while in their saved state.
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Preach the Gospel
| Posted On: 01/03/08 06:59:39 PM |
Age 54, MI |
Exactly because we cannot ever know the "inner man", the heart of another, we need to do the following:
1. If they profess Christ, even if not living so, then preach the Gospel.
2. If they do not profess Christ, but living as if they do, then preach the Gospel.
3. If they profess Christ, and are living as such, then preach the Gospel.
4. If they do not profess Christ, and are living away from Christ, preach the Gospel.
Our duty is not to assess and act such, it is to obey and live for Christ, preaching Him in our words and our lives. Let us focus more on our own struggled walk than on the stumbles and falls of others. It is God who will either lift him up or leave him lay.
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Preach the Gospel
| Posted On: 01/03/08 06:55:26 PM |
Age 54, MI |
Exactly because we cannot ever know the "inner man", the heart of another, we need to do the following:
1. If they profess Christ, even if not living so, then preach the Gospel.
2. If they do not profess Christ, but living as if they do, then preach the Gospel.
3. If they profess Christ, and are living as such, then preach the Gospel.
4. If they do not profess Christ, and are living away from Christ, preach the Gospel.
Our duty is not to assess and act such, it is to obey and live for Christ, preaching Him in our words and our lives. Let us focus more on our own struggled walk than on the stumbles and falls of others. It is God who will either lift him up or leave him lay.
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Salvation or Savior
| Posted On: 01/03/08 03:15:45 PM |
Age 61, MO |
"I put all my hope in a Savior, not salvation." This comment is right on. Thank you. George Cancilla
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Was he ever saved?
| Posted On: 01/03/08 02:06:16 PM |
Age 53, NE |
You make an important point. My sister in the Lord was just such a one as you mention - and she struggled mightily against her sin, though she was a believer who bore much fruit — she was delivered from it and endures even now the discipline and the consequences of that sin, knowing however, that the Lord's mercies are deep and she can trust Him to save. Was she ever lost to Him? No. For God in His sovereignty, while allowing her still to choose each day, nevertheless protected her unto the day of her repentance. We are all like Paul, doing what we hate while neglecting to do the good we long to do. To believe any differently simply leads us to another sin, one of arrogance ...
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WHO SHOULD WE BELIEVE
| Posted On: 01/03/08 12:13:32 PM |
Age 64, OH |
What we all tend to forget sometimes is this: Any one who truly gives their life to the One who shed His blood for them and then trust Him and no one or nothing else to save them will be saved and no one can take them from His hand. But this is also true; Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. - We are all part of this creation and only the Creator knows who the sons of God are. I believe I gave my life to my Creator 33 years ago and He gave me His Holy Spirit that very day as a seal of His guarantee that I was saved. But what can any man really know for our hearts are deceitful and wicked to the very core. My hope is that I have truly given my life to the One who shed His blood for me. But I repent and ask Him to save me every day. None of my hope is in the fact that I think that I am saved. But I put ALL my hope in my SAVIOR not my salvation. I also ask Him to give me the grace to keep trusting in Him everyday in every way. But if any of my enduring to the end is up to me, I have come to know that there is absolutely no hope for me; for ALL MY HOPE is in the fact that he can and will keep me. I do not save myself in any way and at any time; it is all by His grace and grace alone. Yet God is JUST and not unjust. So how can I be saved and not all men; what did I do to be saved and some men have not done. We are all puny men and much is well beyond the grasp of our understanding. I am told that I have an IQ in the top 1% of men, and what that means I do not know. But this I do know; the ways of God are FAR beyond my understanding, and beyond finding out. I believe that I have done nothing to be saved, and it is by grace and grace alone that I am saved. Yet I also believe that God is completely just, because He says he is and has shown me that He is. I choose to believe God OVER the reason of puny, sinful, arrogant, stupid men who can not even keep themselves from going bald or even from death. Lou
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