Bride of Christ
| Posted On: 01/02/08 07:18:52 PM |
Age 35, SC |
Todd would agree that God does love us, but the point is that he is not pining over us like some lovesick little girl. That is a very man-centered message. God is looking for a God-centered message with him given the glory. The romantic love that is often portrayed in these songs makes God out to be some poor pleading Jesus, hoping that someone will open the door of their heart and let him in. One song states, "you would rather die than to live without me..." How man-centered is that? How about-- you would rather die, so we could glorify you! The ultimate end for these types of songs center around us, not God. We need to proclaim God's love, yes, but with the Cross at the center of that love, not running through a field hand in hand.
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Man shape hole in God's heart
| Posted On: 12/31/07 12:22:32 PM |
Age 49, OH |
You must have an open mind. I do agree with what you are saying, but at the same time, God does want to be our bosom buddy. We are to bring glory to his name, and he makes himself known in the most peculiar ways: for example, sometimes, God serenades to us by waking us in the morning through his birds singing, and in turn, we will be amazed at God's creation, glorifying his name. You are missing the love experience that you can have with God. You must open up your eyes and see that you can be in love with God, to love him with all your heart, mind and soul. Please read Song of Solomon, and you will see the love relationship God has between him and the church.
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Re: Hmm, I supose you do it better (?)
| Posted On: 12/19/07 08:37:41 PM |
Age 20, NV |
"Age 44, CANADA" was discussing a theological point, not the application of evangelism. Just because people from Way of the Master (WOTM) have been extremely successful and used of God for evangelism does NOT mean that all of their theology is automatically accurate. I think it's safe to say that not one of us has 100% perfect theology; we've all got errors in our thinking somewhere because if we didn't, we'd have a full grasp of everything in the Bible, which of course we do not. It is therefore valid to lovingly critique --- based upon the Scriptures--- the teachings of other believers. I greatly respect WOTM and God even used their teaching to help lead me to salvation, but that does not mean they or anybody else gets a free-ride from Biblical examination on anything they teach. "Age 44, CANADA" was simply offering some moderation to something which he felt Mr. Friel took way too far in the opposite direction, and while I wouldn't have called it a "typical Friel/Comfort," (paraphrase mine) I do agree with his general point.
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Read the whole Bible, not just the parts that fit your theology
| Posted On: 12/17/07 02:55:05 PM |
Age 45, GA |
If you're looking for the exact wording "romantic Bridegroom," then yes, you're exactly right. But if you say that this picture or concept isn't in the Bible, that's about as heretical as what you're claiming about this song. Clearly, I'm not talking about what you can find with a "word search." But if you want to know the real meaning of the text, open your eyes. Jewish wedding ceremonies were patterned after the Sinai covenant in Exodus because this was seen as a wedding ceremony between God and His people. Not scriptural, you say? Well read the prophets. They agreed, and put "Thus says the Lord" behind their words. God is referred to (and refers to Himself, if you believe in the inspiration of scripture) as HUSBAND. "You adulterous wife! You prefer strangers to your own husband!" (Ezekiel 16:32). "As a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so your God will rejoice over you" (Isaiah 62:5). (I'm sorry, but that sounds a little romantic.) All of Israel's disobedience is spoken of in terms of adultery. Clearly you disagree with people like Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, Hudson Taylor, and many others who believe the Song of Songs, which uses far more "romantic" (and even sexual) terms than this song, represents God's love for His people. And does it really make any sense at all to say that God or Jesus is a Bridegroom (clearly scriptural) but that He has absolutely no romantic emotion? Or to say that we're made in God's image (clearly scriptural) except for that part about romantic emotions, which God thought of for us but doesn't have Himself? I've offered plenty of scriptures above that prove that all of these concepts are scriptural. No, the exact words of this song aren't in scripture, but then the exact words of any pastor's illustrations aren't in scripture either. But most people don't have any trouble swallowing those. So I'm not really making any points about exact wording. But if you're looking for scriptural principles, concepts, descriptions, illustrations of God, you'll find ample support for the idea that He desires an intimate relationship with His people. Just do a "word search" for adultery and see how often it applies to our relationship with GodÑand how often God rebukes His people for going after other "lovers." ("She will chase after her lovers but not catch them; she will look for them but not find them. Then she will say, ÔI will go back to my husband [God] as at first, for then I was better off than now.Õ" (Hosea 2:7) These are very emotionally charged term with marital/sexual connotations, and yet the inspired Word of God seems to have no trouble applying them to our relationship with Him. So if you want to say you're not comfortable using these terms with God, then say that. But DON'T say they're unscriptural.
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God is not romantic!
| Posted On: 12/17/07 11:36:15 AM |
Age 45, CO |
No your incorrect! God is not a romantic Bridegroom. Romance or romantic do not appear in connection with the word Bridegroom in any of the versions of the Bible. In fact, if you perform a word search, you will simply not find that adjective being used in any version. The problem is not with God's definition of Himself, it is when man tries to add or re-define God by what he thinks or feels apart from what Scripture attests to. Many confuse God's love for us and our relationship with Him as being romantic. This is a blasphemous, non-scriptural ascription concerning God. Love is defined by the One who is the source of it not by the one who is fallen, sinful, and void of it! The problem with this particular song is not about what is true of God but what is false! This is our contention! A few lines from this song present false ideas with respect to God,
And I whispered sweet "I love you's". (where?)
And I trembled as I watched the tears you cried. (where?)
So I splashed your face with moonlight, and I longed for your embrace. (where?)
God whispered? God trembled? God longed for our embrace? Nonsense! If, someone wants to write about the God of the Universe let it be scripturally informed which means there is right and wrong ideas concerning God. But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. (Titus 2:1)Our feelings have very little to do with anything, they are a by-product of our fallen natures and cannot be trusted. What can be trusted is God's word, thats all! So when anything about God is set forth which is contrary or defective, or misleading we are commanded to pull down these strongholds (personal opinions that oppose the truth), Cast down imaginations(the various systems of false philosophy),and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God (all the pride of the human heart, self-knowledge), bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ(all forms of opinion among men; all the purposes of the soul; all the powers of reason, memory, judgment, fancy, in an individual) (2Cor 10:4-5), He who speaks truth declares righteousness, But a false witness, deceit (Proverbs 12: 17) This song does not declare the righteousness of God but the confused character of a fallen man! Just because someone can write a song doesn't mean they should. Do all to the Glory of God! Cain’s offering to the Lord was rejected because it was not what the Lord desired! Let us arm ourselves also with this understanding!
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The Unchnageable God.
| Posted On: 12/17/07 12:20:24 AM |
Age 32, AZ |
First and formost the Lord Jesus Christ is not under any oblgation in saving any ones souls. Thank God and praises to His Holy life changing Word, that He saves some and not any at all. Unless the Father Draws one soul to be able to hear His Holy Word, through His Only Holy Son, there is no hope for that lost soul John 6:44 and John 15:16 back that up. God does the chosing Man is dead in His sin and hopless apart from Christ EPH 2:1-3, unless the Father will grant them the ability to come too Repentance 2 Tim 2:25 makes that clear. I am so thankful, that salvation is of the Lord alone Johna 2:9. Forst Christ alone is on the throne alone, man is dead and dying with out Christ calling upon His God given life, to be saved from the wrath to come and amen to the glory of God alone.
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How is it relevent...
| Posted On: 12/15/07 11:41:07 PM |
Age 44, TN |
I've been wondering... If a songwriter writes a song worshiping his god, which isn't the One revealed in Holy Scripture, is it really a Christian song? Does God receive our worship if it consists of us repeating lyrics of a... um.. heretic? What if we are unaware that the song was written to honor another god?
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Hmm, I supose you do it better (?)
| Posted On: 12/15/07 11:24:29 PM |
Age 44, TN |
Great criticism of a prolific evangelist. Perhaps you'd like to direct us to the many personal witnessing encounters you've posted on youtube. Ray Comfort is a precious, humble preacher who loves people and fears God too much to soft-sell the message. He has personally witnessed to thousands of people. He has preached countless open air messages. How many times have YOU been cursed, spat upon, attacked, and harrased for sharing the Gospel? Ray Comfort ALWAYS preaches salvation through repentance and faith. You are simply wrong.
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Seek Jesus not knowledge
| Posted On: 12/15/07 11:18:15 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Friend:
I like you a lot; haven't a clue who you are, but you are young, you are articulate, you are seeking God, and you are bold. Furthermore, I pray for you. That said, let me take you to task with two more issues, you wrote; " everything God does on our behalf is fundamentally an act of one member of the Trinity to bring forth our love for another member of the Trinity." This may seem correct in practice but is wrong in actuality because of the simple fact thee is only ONE God. The natures of God are to reveal attributes of God but there is only ONE God. The problem in our understanding of this is that we read scripture as if it were God instead of revealation of the mind of God which is only Spiritually discerned. Scripture is not the word of God, Jesus is the Word of God. Therefore, seek Jesus and wisdom, not knowledge. Bless God, John
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Missing the point
| Posted On: 12/14/07 12:51:01 PM |
Age 45, GA |
My points above don't minimize or ignore God's "holiness, wrath, awesome truth, and power" at all. I don't know any Christians who question His incredible majesty, and, though I'm not all that familiar with Phillips, Craig, and Dean, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't question that aspect of God either. My point is that the Bridegroom/bride, romantic image of God is very scriptural, just as the picture of God as all-powerful, sovereign, holy Lord and Creator is scriptural. When someone points out the latter picture, very few people say, "You're wrong, God is a romantic Bridegroom!" But when someone writes a song about the more tender and intimate image, tons of people scream, "That's unbiblical!" My point is that it absolutely isn't unbiblical. This is a dominant theme in vast portions of scripture. Most of these posts treat God as if only one of these descriptions of Him can be true while the other must be wrong, and that shows a real ignorance of what the Bible actually says. The Bible thoroughly supports all of these characteristics of God, from awesome majesty to tender friendship. And if someone wants to sing about one aspect of His character, they ought to be able to do it without fabricated claims like "there's not a single verse that supports this idea"--and without vitriolic attacks calling it "dreck."
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Bride of Chucky
| Posted On: 12/14/07 09:34:40 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Put simply: absolute power corrupts absolutely, except with God. Therefore humility is a must. I think you'll agree Lou, the problem is that people do not know God. They know the songs, the smiles, the code words, and the secret handshake, but they don't know God. For all practical purposes we could be the bride of Chucky for our ignorance of the groom. We are great at doing church but terrible at being the Church. I think perhaps we are the Laodicean church. John
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Absolute power humbly
| Posted On: 12/14/07 09:24:04 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Friend:
You almost got it entirely correct. However, you erred when you said: "yet He at the same time seeks His own glory." You said this in the context of the Trinity working together for it's own Glory. It would seem to be true except for the fact that truth is utterly true and does not seek its truthfulness, it is what it is. God is I AM. It's not a pompus or self aggrandizing statement, it is what it is. I was born on July 25th thru no effort of my own, no cause of celebration, I didn't earn it, it is what it is. Black is black. That doesn't make it proud or humble it is simply black. However, God is humble because His power is in check with his other attributes. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, except with God. Amen? John
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I agree with Todd about "No Matter How Long"
| Posted On: 12/13/07 06:43:35 PM |
Age 42, IN |
I agree with Todd. I do see your points against Todd's, but I think it's dangerous ground on which to tread. We must never lose sight of God's holiness, wrath, awesome truth and power, etc. When we try to humanize Him to fit into our small, weak minds and hearts, we lessen his GLORY and GREATNESS! In my opinion, anyway....
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Knowing Christ
| Posted On: 12/13/07 12:51:43 PM |
Age 47, MO |
Absolutely correct. IN Christ is where we find love, mercy, justice, rightous wrath, etc. So at baptism we are raised a new man in Christ. This is why Christ calls us friend, because IF we know Christ (The WORD) and walk by the Spirit, then we know the mind of Christ. The problem I see is that we say that we use code words like walk by faith. Since the church no longer teaches truth, our faith ends up being ignorance. To walk by ignorance is to walk by self. All truth is found in Scripture and we are ignorant because we know scripture but don't really know CHrist. Kinda like walking outside and calling it day without recognizing the light or seeing the sun. John
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If you think this song is unbiblical, you need to read the Bible
| Posted On: 12/13/07 10:47:32 AM |
Age 45, GA |
Those who are criticizing this song (and others like it) can't honestly make the claim that it's unbiblical. It just seems unbiblical to them because it doesn't fit with much of contemporary evangelical assumptions. I'm not sure why Todd chose to pick this song apart, and it's really offensive (and not very respectful of other believers) that he calls it "dreck," but it's easy to put it back together using Scripture:
--I watched you as you stumbled out of bed,
Rushed out the door, your coffee in your hand.
(Psalm 139 says the same thing in much stronger words.)
--And you looked so lost and lonely,
(Psalm 25:16; 68:6. For some reason, David seemed to think God was concerned about loneliness as well as sin.)
--I knew I had to find a way
(Of course God is omniscient, Todd, but scripture itself often speaks of his ÒknowingÓ in human terms, as though He has to Òfind outÓ something. See Genesis 11:5 and Deuteronomy 13:3, for example.)
--To make you understand, I wanna be your friend. (Yes, God wants us to have a friendship with Him, not just reconciliation. See John 15:13-15. The disciples were more than just Òreconciled,Ó especially John the beloved. Jesus called Lazarus His friend too.)
--So I painted a sunrise in the sky
And I caused the birds to sing you lullabies, (Yes, God grants sleep to those He loves. Psalm 127:2. See also Ezekiel 34:25 and Jeremiah 31:26. In context, these are about God giving His people rest, and, especially in the Ezekiel passage, nature plays a prominent role. Besides, do you really want to argue with something thatÕs obviously intended as a poetic image in the same manner as many of the psalms?)
--And I whispered sweet "I love you's".
(It's true, God ÒlovesÓ in this way. Otherwise calling Israel an adulteress--even illustrating her adultery with HoseaÕs life--means absolutely nothing. God is pictured as a husband very often in Scripture. Ezekiel 16, Hosea 1-3, and Revelation 21 are the most emphatic and graphic examples.)
--No matter how long it takes, somehow I'll find a way
Somehow My love will find a way,
(No, not Òpoor, pitiful God.Ó Relentlessly loving God who says Òmy name is Jealous.Ó There are at least 26 explicit references to His jealousy in Scripture, though it is indirectly mentioned on numerous occasions. He is also ÒgrievedÓ and often ÒweepsÓ in numerous passages.)
--No matter how long it takes.
(Yes, God is patient, not wanting any to perish. 2 Peter 3:9. ItÕs a real stretch to assume the songwriters meant this even for Òafter death.Ó This is the image of a Bridegroom seeking His bride, and God is relentless about that.)
--I watched you as you fell asleep last night,
And I trembled as I watched the tears you cried.
(Maybe He doesnÕt tremble, but He does weep, grieve, express His fury, and delight and rejoice over us with His love. Read the prophets.)
--So I splashed your face with moonlight, and I longed for your embrace. (Actually, this sounds more like Song of Songs than a Harlequin romance. And the Song, as you know, has long been interpreted by many orthodox, evangelical, Bible-believing theologians as a picture of GodÕs love for His people.)
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God's Glory & Love
| Posted On: 12/12/07 02:04:17 PM |
Age 20, NV |
Well, the Scriptures do show us that the final end of all things is God's glory (Romans 11:36), but the key to grasping this is the triune nature of God. In the big picture, Jesus did not seek His own glory (John 7:18). When He did seek it, it was not for His own sake, but because He sought the glory of the Father (John 17:1). And the Father's great goal was not so much His own glory, but it was to glorify the Son (Rom 8:29).
God seeking His glory is something that MUST be viewed through the lens of trinitarian theology. When people say "God is not humble" they go against the Scriptures' teaching on Christ. Do they truly think that Jesus contradicted His divine nature when He humbled Himself? That He could not do. God is humble, in the sense of the Trinity, yet He at the same time seeks His own glory; that is why the Trinity is key to grasping this. From all eternity, the members of the Trinity have been glorfiying the OTHER members, in love (John 17:24). Another key to our understanding must be the nature of glory. God's desire is not to elicit empty praise from us, but loving praise to the glory of His grace (Eph 1:6). Simply put, everything God does on our behalf is fundamentally an act of one member of the Trinity to bring forth our love for another member of the Trinity; God is after His peoples' hearts. As Dr. Chuck de Groat from Reformed Theological Seminary said: [quote] "It's hard for us to picture Him as a groom relentlessly pursuing the heart of His Bride. ... Picture a God whose sole desire from ages past has been to win the hearts of His own. ... Her greatest joy comes in loving Him with heart, soul and strength, not out of obligation, but because of her passion for Him." [end quote] (Capitalization edited by me. Taken from
http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/chu_degroat/PT.DeGroat.Love.Law.pdf)
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GOD ESTEEMS THE HUMBLE AND IS HUMBLE HIMSELF
| Posted On: 12/12/07 01:56:15 PM |
Age 64, OH |
As I read the comments I am reminded of the condition of the church. They do not read the scriptures as a way of life and when they do read the scriptures they look to the scriptures instead of the One who wrote them. GOD DOES NOT EXALT HIMSELF FOR HE IS HUMBLE. This is proven by the cross. GOD IS EXALTED BECAUSE HE IS HUMBLE. We are rewarded if we are honest; but we should not be honest to seek the reward. GOD DOES NOT SEEK GLORY. We are told to glorify god because we are to glorify things worthy of glory and The Lamb of God is the Only One worthy of Glory. God does not seek glory but is the only one worthy of glory. God does not seek glory because He is worthy; but he is worthy of glory because he does not seek glory. Lou
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GOD IS HUMBLE AND MEEK
| Posted On: 12/12/07 01:40:27 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Dear sister you say God is not humble. If God is not humble then the Bible would be a lie. But much, much worse if God is not humble then Jesus would be a lie. If God was not HUMBLE and MEEK we would all be destroyed long ago. Isaiah 66:2 declares the LORD. "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word. - the scripture says God esteems the humble. Are you saying God does not Himself fulfill what he esteems. If a man esteems honest men he will be honest. God esteems humility therefore he is humble. Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and HUMBLE IN HEART,- Jesus IS humble and meek for the scriptures tell us so. Jesus is God Almighty. Jesus is "God With us". Jesus Christ did not strain to be something that he was not, for that is the way of men. Jesus had no guile within Him or could not deceive us in any way for it was against His nature. God did not go against his nature to humble himself to become a Man. God can not go against His nature. God humbled Himself to become a man because He is humble and meek. - Matthew 23:12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.- This is a law of God and can not be broken. God does not break His own laws. Would you want a President who paid no attention to the law. God never breaks his own laws. If God was willing to break his own laws then he would not have had to become a man and die on the cross. It was because of his mercy that Jesus was willing to die but it was because of His justice that he had to die. The fact that God was not willing to break His own laws is proven by the cross. So if God exalted Himself then he would be humbled; but God is HUMBLE THEREFORE HE IS EXALTED. Paul said he wanted to preach NOTHING but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The crucified Christ is the whole gospel and THE revelation of God Almighty. To become a man and then die a criminals death on the cross even though he was God and was innocent and righteous is the most HUMBLE thing ever done in this universe. It is because of the fact that God is so humble that he is exalted above every other name. The HUMILITY OF GOD IS HIS GLORY. Lou
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ALL THE BIBLE IS TRUE
| Posted On: 12/12/07 12:41:12 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Friend your argument is simply not valid. We are told in the scriptures that we should be like Jesus Christ. We are told to be humble and meek and we are told Jesus is humble and meek. How could God tell us to be like Him and then be selfish and self seeking. He tells us NOT to seek glory. Jesus is glorified because he is humble. If you tell the truth you will be rewarded. But you DO NOT TELL THE TRUTH TO SEEK REWARD. You tell the truth because you love truth more than you love yourself. Jesus is both the Lamb and the Lion of Judah. But Jesus is not two people is He. One nature does not fight the other nature. But it is all the same nature of Jesus. Justice and Mercy are not opposite. For the scriptures say that all of God's judgments (justice) are merciful. Jesus does not decide between Justice and Mercy, but everything he does is BOTH merciful and just. The same is true of Humility and glory of God. God is aways humble. His humility is His glory. Do you not even understand the cross of Jesus, which is the most important thing that ever happened in the universe. What does the cross of Jesus Christ speak. Is not this the most humble thing that was ever done. Is it not also the most glorious. Lou
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Marriage..
| Posted On: 12/12/07 12:08:55 PM |
Age 44, KY |
Maybe its that we are 44 or maybe it's the fact that the Holy Trinity lives within us, but I think you are heading down the right path. While it is true that some song may go a little too lovey-dovey, the fact is we don't love, but the Father loves through us. It it written that He is love. Romantic isn't a bad thing, provided you understand that "romantic" doesn't mean you ultimate goal isn't always a sexual experience! Romance can lead to a much more profound form of love. I kinda think Todd means well, but he gets a little to stand-offish. Love does glorify the Father, every time, but don't confuse Lust with Love. What was Yahushua Hammashiach's commands to us before ascending - Believe in Me and Love the Brethren. In fact love was a very important part of the Son's message to us - love your enemies, love your neighbors, love one another. I am not say that that songs need to be syrupy sweet, but He does love us enough to send His only begotten Son to suffer and die in our place to offer reconciliation to us, so I guess call me a romantic, but I'd say that is a pretty strong statement of Love for us.
Mark
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