Watch the Width of the Brush
| Posted On: 12/07/07 06:28:47 PM |
Age 51, CA |
Let me preface my remarks with two foundational statements: 1) I appreciate all the good that Rick Warren has done to stimulate growth in many declining churches; 2) I am increasingly disappointed with the "social shift" in Rick Warren's ministry. Why should #2 be any concern of mine? Because I've used Rick's materials in my church and I can easily be "guilty by association" in regard to the left turn Saddleback's ministry seems to have taken. So many "mega-pastors" implode when they distance themselves from honest criticism. This year has seen a number of such crashes--for example Haggard and Hagee to name just two. However, it is too broad a brush stroke (in my opinion) to say that if there has been a shift in Rick Warren's theology and methodology -- and I think there is reason to suspect there has been -- that this necessarily means everything he has ever done has been biblically unsound. I think that brush stroke is far too broad. I think that high profile people like Warren deserve all the scrutiny they get, but I don't think we should "through the proverbial baby out with the bath water."
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Disassociation
| Posted On: 12/07/07 05:46:44 PM |
Age 88435, NM |
You are correct that the Bible does not teach that Christians should not associate with homosexuals...unless they consider themselves Christians. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul addresses sexual sin in the church and verses 9-11 makes it very clear: "When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to do that. What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people."
But we all need to read that whole chapter to make sure we understand why we are doing this. It is to bring them to a place where they miss the fellowship they once had, repent of there sin, and can then be restored to fellowship.
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Re: Rick Warren and Other Liberals Seek To Find Common Ground with Muslims. Do They Really Believe We Worship The Same God?
| Posted On: 12/07/07 05:31:50 PM |
Age 66, WA |
It Is depressing to see all the people who write, that we should be more tender and softer as we are talking about gray areas of the bible.
I have read the Bible several times and will continue reading it for the rest of my life. Nowhere do I find gray areas about doctrine.
God Is the same today,yesterday and tomorrow.
He Hates Sin, He Is A Forgiving God He Is The Only God.He Wants you to Love Him With All Your Heart And Soul.
Romans 12:1,2
God said Do Not Conform To This World.
Live A holy Life dedicated to God.
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It's not about the numbers
| Posted On: 12/07/07 04:18:53 PM |
Age 47, KS |
Christianity is not about numbers. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's about obedience to God's word. Yes, it is about sharing the good news that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of every sinner. But it's not about how big a church can grow. Churches that give truth, unvarnished truth, grow without all the bells and whistles....I attend one.
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Strange Article
| Posted On: 12/07/07 03:36:15 PM |
Age 41, MO |
I found the entire article above strange. If you have specific objections to Mr. Warrens published materials or his public conduct then provide specific objections. The vague references to emails sent to your friends by Mr. Warren seem out of place. Is it really any of your concern what Mr. Warren writes to your friends. If the entire correspondence can't be shown than i think it is improper for you to refer to private correspondence. This is by no means an endorsement of Mr. Warren or his AIDS conference. In fact I would say to all of the Feedback submitters if you have issues with Rick Warren write to him personally or go out to his church and confront his church directly. Why post your objections here?
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The Purpose Driven Life--Rick Warren
| Posted On: 12/07/07 02:17:11 PM |
Age 61, MO |
The answers to your question can be found here: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm
The basic objection to the book, and the theology in general is: Should we be purpose driven or Spirit led? All a Christian should be doing is surrendering and trusting Jesus, because He has already done all the work. A discussion of sin and repentance is markedly lacking in the book. George Cancilla
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Twisted Scripture
| Posted On: 12/07/07 01:48:55 PM |
Age 42, AL |
The only thing that Mr. Warren is fighting for is his own selfish personal agenda. His trip to Syria, and lying about it is just the tip of the iceburg with this man. He spews out threats all the time to ministries that disagree with his liberal agenda. Thousands have been forced out of churches they grew up in when they would not bow to this Laodician theology. It's a sad day when defending the true faith from false teaching is considered a bad thing. You can thank Mr. Warren and his liberal followers for that also.
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Rick Warren
| Posted On: 12/07/07 01:48:23 PM |
Age 61, MO |
It sounds like you are calling Ingrid a "closet" Christian, simply because she chooses to homeschool, etc. I consider her to be very wise in so doing, and a "warrior" as well. Perhaps you are not familiar with the fact that Ingrid has had a long running Christian blog site called "Slice of Laodecia" and has hosted talk radio. She has written many articles for publication. If this isn't sticking one's neck out for Christ, then I don't know what is. Ingrid is not afraid to call a spade a spade, which although it may seem harsh, is far better than some soft sell diplomacy that doesn't offend. Keep up the good work, Ingrid. George Cancilla
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Warrior or Fortress?
| Posted On: 12/07/07 01:11:15 PM |
Age 46, MN |
I think the gentlemens comment that if you homeschool your kids etc that you are NOT a warrior ir disengenious at best. I don't send my kids to school to evangelize per se, I send them to learn!! I (me myself) can walk out toward the edge but my kids are no match in 3rd grade to discuss evolution with a 4 year college dregreed teacher.
I also do not believe that you cannot fallout of Gods grip. I've known many backslidden Christians (some now homosexuals)who no longer have any interest in walking with God. Are you telling me that they are going to die and go to heaven with unrepentant sin and a total of rejection of what they knoew? And no, I don't buy the Baptist line that "they never were saved in the 1st place". If that is the one size fits all answer then why doesn the Scripture talkk about backslidding?
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same old song and dance
| Posted On: 12/07/07 12:59:15 PM |
Age 30, MN |
Well same old song and dance on this website. I am so sick of homosexuality being called out constantly in the american church and being made the deal breaker sin. Personally I feel that homosexuality is not gods ideal, but why do we constantly finger one specific sin group and villinize them. You ask pastors why they preach on this so much and they'll say we are just being biblical. Hmmm the number one talked about sin in the bible is actually gluttony so if they are just being biblical how come you never see them preach about gluttony???? I'll tell you why because its easier to preach about a sin that know one in your congregation is guilty of because lets face it the american church has alienated most homosexuals so you will never find one in the church, and that breaks my heart that the church has alienated anyone. We live in the most disgustonly gluttoness country in the world. American obesity and heart disese is on the rise, child diabtes is staggering yet gluttony the number one sin talked about in the bible is never mentioned. We would rather isolate and villinize one particular sin group to make us feel more rightous. If you are going to talk about one certain sin you need to talk about them all. I hope homosexuals were welcomed in rick warrens church because like all sinners, and I got news for you folks thats all of us, everyone that means everyone is welcome in gods house. The biggest problem in the american church is not rick warren its the vast number of hipocritical people we have on christain telivision, radio, and the internet. Lets try and fix this people. God Bless.
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Fortress Christianity
| Posted On: 12/07/07 11:52:27 AM |
Age 47, FL |
Among those truly passionate about their relationship with Jesus, I find two definable camps. First, there is what I call fortress Christians. You are a fortress Christian if you make a real effort to seperate yourself out of the world in as many ways as possible. You profess the intention of protecting yourself and your children from all influences of the world. You homeschool, you school at the Christian academy, you do not befriend any but Christians. The second camp is the warrior Christian. This Christian characterized by his willingness to carry out the great commission. He is faithful within his church, he studies scripture, receives discipleship, is edified by the local body of Christ. The warrior strengthens himself by staying in and near his church, he puts on the full Armor of God, with the word as his sword, he ventures out into the world, into the secular arena and fights the fight, represents Christ as best he can as a man.
There is danger in being a warrior for Christ, you must walk the edge of the cliff, below a lake of fire. You may fall, some have. But where is your faith? Your faith is the rope that connects you back to the fortress. All the growth of the church is out on the edge.
I haven't formed an opinion on Rick Warren. I love his Purpose book. I'm faint at what he is doing with AIDS, I think he is way out over the edge. But the Bible says that once we receive the Holy Spirit, that God will not let us out of his grip. God created the light, he created darkness, he creates peace and created evil. He has domain over all. What you see as evil, God may mean for good.
So before casting stones at Rick Warren, maybe you should ask God to measure you first. Are you a warrior for Christ? or do you cower behind the walls, cloaked in piety, ripping those of us willing to fight for souls?
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Rick Warren
| Posted On: 12/07/07 11:45:02 AM |
Age 74, MN |
When I was first introduced to Warren's book, The Purpose Drive Life, many people were enthusiastic about it in the group that was going to have a study on it. In fact, I thought it sounded pretty good. However, as our weekly meetings went on, I began to wonder about some things. At our last meeting, we were asked to give a brief statement about what the book covered. I had to say that the first sentence in the whole book was the best: "It's not about you." That much of it is absolutely true. As we have followed Warren's progress, we have seen him move farther and farther away from the principle that God is the one it is all about, not man. At this point I have become convinced that Rick Warren is believing his own publicity--a bad stance for a man who wants to teach the Bible. He is moving further and further away from the solid foundation of the Word of God, and is "leaning unto his own understanding" as in Proverbs 3:5.
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Right on!
| Posted On: 12/07/07 11:35:44 AM |
Age 37, MN |
Love ya Ingrid - you are right on as usual!!
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Interesting
| Posted On: 12/07/07 10:01:15 AM |
Age 26, IL |
I did not know that Rick Warren had become so defensive. The last few times I had heard form him, it seemed like he was open to discusion about his ideas. I am sorry to see that he has taken a "his way or no way" approch.
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Thank you
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:59:31 AM |
Age 43, MN |
Thank you for your article. Most in the church think Warren and his work are wonderful just like I did until I witnessed what his program did to our church and many of my relatives churches. People need the truth brought to light by presenting the facts about him and his ministry. A few that concern me: his world PEACE plan, meeting with world leaders without sharing the gospel, teaching churches to operate like businesses, recommending emergent/new age authors to the pastors through his weekly pastors tool box by e-mail, his teachings on cutting out "sick" parts of the church body like cancer, calling church members with biblical questions about his methods "troublemakers" and recommending books on how to implement his program which call resisters "Sanballats"(leaders from hell),working with the United Nations for world peace, on the Council of Foreign Relations, purpose driven nations and synagogues without the gospel, not sharing the gospel on national tv appearances (Franklin Graham,Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron do each time I see them on tv interviews), his 3-legged stool of business/government/religion having to work together to solve world problems,his prayer of salvation in purpose driven video without cross/sin/repent even mentioned yet congratulates them on now being a child of God, his treatment of Christians who try to expose these things (world net daily, lighthouse trails, my e-mail), holding AIDS summits at his church (in CA) while California schools now required by legislation passed to teach full homosexual dogma instead of "mom and dad" marriage, ..... just too many red flags for me.
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Mr
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:25:13 AM |
Age 49, MD |
Let's keep everything clean, Ingrid; my feedback, and your commentary on Rick Warren. You impute motives to Rick and slander him, but you bring few facts to the table. Essentially, you criticize him for "eating with sinners and tax collectors" and for engaging the modern equivalent of the philosophers on their own Mars Hill turf; what is your biblical basis for this? Is it your agenda to ghetto-ize evangelical Christianity in this fallen culture further than it already is? If so, what is your thinking behind this philosophy? What scriptures do you find to support this thinking?
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But Look at the Numbers
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:15:00 AM |
Age 45, NC |
You guys don't get it. Its all about the numbers. Hasn't Rick Warren said they speak for themselves? Isn't that the mark of success? The attendence, the size of the building? The little Bible-teaching church I attend could never match up.
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Why are you so mean?
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:05:23 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Ingrid:
Sometimes you amaze me, Why is it difficult for you to see that there is no absolute right or wrong to a grey issue problem? The solution has to be in the middle of the road, that way everyone is happy that they were part of the solution, see? However, there will always be some stupid kook on the fringe that will make any solution irrelevent and we must save him from himself, can't you feel his pain? We all believe abstinance is the answer but not everyone is smart enough to heed our advice, so we must reach out to where they are at and offer a solution that rescues them from their self inflicted pain. If we save them from the pain, then the problem is irrelevent. Just give a fish, and they will live another day. WWJD? Jesus would love them and understand their problems and face it, we all got problems. Why are you so mean? Fine, I'm just gonna hold my breath until you see it my way, I am. Really!
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What is unbiblical about the Purpose Driven Life?
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:02:17 AM |
Age 50, NC |
I understand your concern about the recent meetings Rick Warren has had at Saddleback. However, I do not understand why you refer to the Purpose Driven Life as unbiblical.
I am a fundamental, Bible-believing Pastor who has been through the Purpose Driven Life more than once and taught the same. I have not seen anything in the book that does not line up with Scripture.
Would you please give the page numbers and paragraphs you are refering to along with the Scriptures these contradict.
Revealing the Father's Heart,
Greg
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Rick Warren Dissent
| Posted On: 12/07/07 08:35:08 AM |
Age 37, GA |
As I sat reading this "dissent" regarding Rick Warren I was curious about several things regarding the author of this article. One, how do you know the state of Rick Warren's emotions? These were heavy claims stating that he wants the entire world to bow low before his Purpose-Driven altar. I kept reading waiting to see factual data to back up your claims. I don't think one email is enough to substantiate an entire argument on.
I also thought that it was shameful to tear down a man in this way. You called him "the golden boy" and "darling of Rupert Murdoch" and that he is schmoozing others, as well as stating that he is disregarding God.
I have tried to openly look for the logic in your argument, tried to find the facts that support your suppositions, but all I am left with is a nauseating feeling that your are spewing opinion without highlighting the facts.
I took large exception to your comment that if anyone sent emails stating that you "slander" him, that they are lacking courage or the ability to see truth. The Bible says that we ALL see through a glass darkly. That includes both you and I.
I am not stating that I agree with Rick Warren's methods, but rather that you state much opinion which overshadows the few facts that you included. I, as a reader,am concerned that due to such strong opinion, that you may not be representing the whole story. You continually tell me what HE believes, not what YOU perceive to be his belief. Subtle difference, but it makes a huge difference in the response to your writings. I would suggest that perhaps you really don't know what he believes.
May I submit that you try to leave your strong opinion out of your writings and allow the facts to speak for themselves. I found I was put off by your opinions, especially since they seem so scathing. When representing Christ, I believe we can love those who have stumbled, for haven't we all? Is my sin or your sin any less than what you present as Rick Warren's? I think that you can humbly allow the reader to assimilate facts without annihalating the character of a fellow brother in Christ. I believe we can humbly present where he may be deceived and to warn others to look deeper in to his actions without the ugliness that I noticed you presented.
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