What does God say?
| Posted On: 12/18/07 05:07:48 PM |
Age 47, GA |
The Scriptures plainly state: "the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Romans 14:17 We live in this fallen world and there are issues and problems all about, but the Word says it all.
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Animals In Heaven
| Posted On: 12/15/07 03:59:20 PM |
Age 70, FL |
David seems to be indicating animals have to be saved for heaven in the same way humans do. However, animals are not under origional sin or know the difference between good and evil so why don't they automatically go to heaven? They didn't eat of the tree of good and evil.
And where do all the white horses come from in Revelation?
Thanks,
Bill
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Two articles?
| Posted On: 12/07/07 02:41:41 PM |
Age 20, NC |
Maybe this could have been best covered in two separate articles, as it seems to be separate issues dealt with.
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THE LORD ALSO ATE BEEF
| Posted On: 12/07/07 12:59:22 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Just food for thought (all vegetables of course); The Lord also ate beef. Look in Genesis 18 and you will see when the Lord appeared to Abraham, he prepared a calf for the Lord with the permission of the Lord before it was prepared. I do not think the Lord does anything but perfection. The lord knew the future when He ate of the calf but still did. There is not one instruction in the Holy Scriptures for us NOT to eat meat of the clean animals. However we are told many times NOT TO EAT ANYTHING THAT EATS BLOOD. Our cattle industry is feeding cows blood and has been for years. We are not to eat cats for they eat blood. However the cat was designed to eat blood and it does not harm the cat. But cattle are not designed to eat blood and it causes Mad Cow disease. There are many in Europe who think that this is the cause of so much Alzheimer's disease. I do not eat meat from any fast food restaurant. I only eat organically raised meat and still do not consume a lot of it. Lou
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VEGATARIAN PHILOSOPHY IS FLAWED
| Posted On: 12/06/07 03:32:15 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Vegan philosophy is really flawed but even vegetarian philosophy is still deeply flawed. I do not speak against all vegetarians but I speak against the most prevalent philosophy of it. Vegetarianism is SALVATION BY WORKS. Most do not eat meat because they say "they will not kill to preserve their life". I am not trying to be sarcastic; but I would say to these people, what do you eat, dirt. No human can live without consuming food that was alive. At least when a man hunts down an animal, it can run. But a helpless plant can not run. So how does being a vegetarian make anyone more righteous. It simply does not. In fact it is originally inspired by the father of lies himself. He is trying to say that people can have life without anyone dying. But there can not be life without death. But not only death, but the death of the most innocent of Lambs. God who is without sin and completely innocent became a Man and shed His blood so that we can have life. No one can have real life without His blood being shed. There was something good that happened when a man and his son went hunting and killed the deer for their family. THEY WERE MADE AWARE THAT SOMETHING INNOCENT HAD TO DIE FOR THEM TO LIVE. Lou
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SOMEONE COULD ARGUE TO NOT EAT MEAT IS FALLING SHORT
| Posted On: 12/06/07 03:07:56 PM |
Age 64, OH |
What you say is correct as far as man did not eat animals until after the flood. But we do not live in the garden or before the flood. Jesus was and is perfect. It is a fact that Jesus ate meat. Jesus said I do EVERYTHING that the Father tells me and I do NOTHING unless the Father tells me to do it. So we are to follow Jesus and one could argue we should eat meat because Jesus ate meat. Jesus was perfection so one could argue that perfection is to eat meat and not to eat meat is falling short of perfection. I am just using a human argument to show that the whole vegetarian argument is flawed. There is not one valid reason to say that not eating meat is better, but there is a valid argument to say that to not eat meat is wrong. I do not think it is important. The only valid reason not to eat meat to me would be if someone has special problems digesting meat. Lou
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Problem with your assumption
| Posted On: 12/06/07 10:25:56 AM |
Age 28, TX |
You assume that Heaven is our ultimate destination. But didn't I read in Revelation about a new Heaven and Earth? It would follow that there would be animals there...But animals aren't much more than possessions, particularly as observed in the Old Testament. Granted, God might grant us Fluffy 2.0, as it were, but I don't think Fluffy 1.0 is coming back.
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Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 07:59:39 PM |
Age 46, AZ |
Mr. Barton, This is the first article have have read that was written by you. I'm with you on the Vegan/Vegitarianism but I believe you are 100% incorrect on the animal issue. Your logic is completely flawed. Animals act completely on instinct. Where did that come from? They do not have the capacity to sin. Our pets were created by God for our pleasure. There is no scriptural backing for them not being there, so I believe they will be there. If they're not, God won't allow us to miss them, just like we won't feel sorrow for unsaved loved ones. God is just and rightous!
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Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 05:36:52 PM |
Age 49, TX |
Yes there will be animals in heaven. But I think what Mr. Barton is referring to are animals taken there in a 'salvific' way. That is, animals who have been delivered from sin into eternal rest through Jesus Christ. Man was created distinct from the animal world in the Genesis account, and dominion over the earth was given to man and not to the animals. Man was made in God's own image, that is in a triune sense (body, soul, and spirit). Animals are not referred to that way in the Scriptures nor are there any Scriptural references that they were included into that group for whom Jesus died. There are also no instances connecting animals and the resurrection either. Therefore the animals that will exist in heaven, or will exist in the new heaven and the new earth, will likely be created by God. If we see animals otherwise we're going to get into some very evolutionary thinking if we're not careful.
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Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 01:37:14 PM |
Age 41, KS |
I have read the article relating to Animals Going to Heaven and I have read many of the feedbacks attributed to this article. First, I want to say that I think what David is saying about veganism is relating to people who practice veganism as a spritual means. I noticed that many of the feedbacks were concerned about David critcizing individuals that practiced veganism, due to health concerns. I think these people are taking what David says out of context. I agree with David about eating of meat and it is clear in the bible what God gives us to eat in the way of the animals he created. A good book in the bible, although convuluted is Leviticus. If you read that book in the bible God is very clear about what meat to eat and not eat. God would not have it in the bible if meat was not good for us and he did not want us to eat of animal. I do however agree with the feedbacks regarding animals going to heaven. I cannot say for sure if our animals that we love so much is going to be there themselves, because God does not come out and say, "The dog you love and is your best friend will be in heaven with you". However, I certainly beleive that animals will be in heaven, because like the other feedbacks, God references animals all throughout the bible. If animals were in the Garden of Eden, they certainly will be in heaven. I hope my dogs, who have been my best friends at different times throughout my life are in heaven. I pray to God about this all the time. However, I will only know when I get to heaven. No matter what God has it planned out according to his purpose.
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Re: Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 01:07:43 PM |
Age 47, MO |
Your hearts desire is to see your animals again? Friend: does that sound right with you? Is that Christian? I can't even fathom using the phrase "my heart's desire" to describe any other thing besides Christ or maybe my family. If you are thinking pets are family, well I guess so if you believe in evolution. Or maybe you are suggesting they are family by adoption, in which case you have bestowed your character, your loves, your feelings, your fears upon your pets instead of people. Yet, all your doing has never resulted in their salvation but rather you missing the entire purpose of Creation and salvation. To glorify Christ, period. John
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Re: Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 12:54:26 PM |
Age 47, MO |
Friend: The soul of an animal is the conscience of the animal. All animals are conscience of life, not in an ethical way, but in a chemical way that leads to its fight for survival. To say that animals can be saved is to say that they can make ethical decisions. This is false and a theology more like Hindu than Christianity. Friend: Only people were created in the image of God, man's sin effected all creation, and Christ's death redeamed all creation. However, man's redeamtion is effectual at Christian rebirth if he remains in Christ, but the world's redemption comes at the newness of time. (Christ's return) It is not a salvic redemption for the world but rather a new creation. Friend: We must properly understand the nature of God and build theology from there. We can't build our theology from happy thoughts and assume they are Christian. Hope this helps. John
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Re: Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 12:35:11 PM |
Age 47, MO |
So are you saying that your love saved your beloved animal? Friend, love does not save, your understandiing of love is nothing compared to real love- Christ. Jesus did not come to the world to save the animals. Plead read Scripture with the goal of understanding the nature of God. John
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Re: Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 12:33:02 PM |
Age 64, OH |
I do not eat meat that is fed in disobedience to the commands of God. this nation feeds it's beef blood which is against the command of God. But i do eat animals that have been fed properly. I do not say you should eat animals but look in Gen 18 when God came to visit Abraham. Abraham fixed beef for god and he ate it. How could what god has done not be perfect. Also Jesus ate meat and he was God and was the perfect example to us. So how could anyone do better than follow Jesus. Lou
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Re: Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 12:31:27 PM |
Age 41, TX |
I agree with most of what you said, except for the killing of animals part. I'm sure God had to kill the animal(s) from which He clothed Adam and Eve after The Fall - before Noah. (Gen. 3:21)
Unless He bought them at the local furriers in the Garden...
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Re: Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 12:15:54 PM |
Age 64, OH |
His whole article is based on a false premise. Animals did not eat of the tree so do not need to be born again. The Bible does NOT say that animals can not go to heaven. A much more valid argument could be made on the basis that animals do not have a spirit. But animals are said to be in the throne room of heaven in The Revelation. Jesus rides out on a white horse. Lou
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Re: Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 12:01:53 PM |
Age 64, OH |
I trust my Savior Jesus to decide who and what will be in heaven. But the argument given by the author is not valid. Man sinned and so needs to be saved, but the animals did not eat the apple and so do not need to be saved. But I would like to give some food for thought. You say, animals died as a result of man's sin. Does God punish the innocent along with the guilty. You say through the disobedience of one man came death and through one Man's obedience came life. You say there was no death until man sinned. These are the conclusions of many; but the Bible does not say what you have concluded. Genesis 2: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. - Adam ate of it and when did he die. Did Adam die the day he ate of it as God said. He did not die a physical death that day for he lived for 930 years. But he did die a spiritual death that day. He became afraid of God and hid from Him. So the Bible shows us it was not physical death that came from Adam's sin but spiritual death which is a much more serious death. Also God said let us take man from the garden before he eats of the tree of life and lives forever and will be lost forever. This is talking of physical life and it was AFTER the fall. Could the command of God be reversed by a tree or by anything. No the sin would have to be paid for because God is Just. So this again shows that it was not physical death that came from the fall but spiritual death. Also the obedience of Jesus Christ has reversed this curse. But do Christians still die a physical death. Physical death is not reversed by the blood of Christ, for Christians still die to be raised to eternal life. So the curse was not physical death but spiritual death. When we ask Jesus to take our lives and His Holy Spirit comes and lives within us, we are made alive to God. It is not a physical rebirth but a spiritual rebirth. What kind of plants and animals do we have on the earth now. the Bible says God rested from creation on the 7th day and he is still in His rest. So the only animals we now have are the same kind that was here in the creation. What kind was that. That is the kind that brings forth animals after their own kind. So we have the same kind now as then, the kind that live and then die. The plants and animals have always lived and then died. They did not sin so were not punished. But even Adam lived for 930 years after he sinned. But Adam did die that same day he ate of the fruit. He was separated from God and blood had to be shed that same day because he died a spiritual death that same day. Lou
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Re: Re: David Barton on Animals Going To Heaven and Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 11:15:47 AM |
Age 41, TX |
Your reply is not based on fact. Christ can make a horse out of thin air - and you have no proof peoples' pets won't be with us on the new Earth (Heaven)- God's Word is not specific on the subject of pets in Heaven - why put words in God's mouth? dangerous...
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Veganism
| Posted On: 12/05/07 01:38:51 AM |
Age 30, AR |
Genesis sites that Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from any tree except the tree of good and evil. It was not until after th fall that any animal is cited as being eaten. So, technically, the way things were meant to be was for animals to not be eaten. I'm not saying eating animals is a sin, but it is not the way things were in the Garden.
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Animals and Heaven
| Posted On: 12/05/07 01:29:32 AM |
Age 25, CA |
I don't think the Bible says that animals aren't going to or aren't in Heaven. I don't see any reason for believing so either. It is clear in the Word that in order for humans to go to Heaven, we must be saved by the blood of Christ. But that is because we have fallen away in sin. No where does it say that animals have fallen into sin. If that is the case, why would they need the blood of Christ to go to Heaven- they wouldn't, and so their going to Heaven would be entirely different than ours.
Secondly, the Lord created animals as well as humans in the Garden of Eden. He created animals to glorify Him, even before He created us to glorify Him. For that reason, I cannot imagine why there would not be animals in Heaven for that purpose. If there then may be animals in Heaven, why not the ones that have died here on earth?
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