Re: Re: early Christians not having Scripture
| Posted On: 10/29/07 01:16:58 PM |
Age 64, OH |
The cost of a book the length of the old testament before the printing press would have been more than the net worth of many people. Yes the OT and part of the NT existed but most Christian did not have a copy. Many people could not read and write and so a book would have not helped them anyway. In that day the scripture "the sons of God are those who walk in the Spirit" was surely true. Lou
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Re: Re: Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/29/07 05:57:32 AM |
Age 57, AR |
20 NC, I do believe that Hagee believes ALL Jews will be saved. Thanks for your comment!
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Re: Re: Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/27/07 10:03:36 PM |
Age 47, MO |
Friend, You went off in a direction that had nothing to do with what I wrote, but in your rush to support your honored Saint Calvin, you completely made my point about missing the entire purpose of scripture. Which is to be dead to self and alive in Christ. When this happens, our theology is correct. Yet, instead of obedience; we prefer to theorize, compartmentalize, and seperate others into preconceived doctrinal boxes that do nothing but make us feel good about being secure in our Calvinistic model. Friend, what true Calvin do you know that is evangelical? It is an impossibility because instead of becoming all things to all people, Calvin's believe that if you do not accept their doctines, then you are not of the elect, Christ has not drawn you to Himself, and therefore there is no need to accept you as a Christian or bother even engaging in debate. I hate to generalize, but true Calvin's are not humble people or very giving to those outside their box.
Instead of thinking you know what Calvin's and Arminian's believe (they are not opposite), perhaps you should study them both and instead of following a man, follow Christ.
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Re: Re: Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/26/07 08:50:53 PM |
Age 57, TX |
Point to Ponder: Even though our human perspective (inside of time) seems to make these two viewpoints appear as opposites, perhaps from God's perspective (outside of time) both Calvinism and Arminianism are indistinguishable. "Two (identical) sides of the same coin", if you will. C3
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Re: Re: Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/26/07 08:36:34 PM |
Age 57, TX |
Jim, thanks for your reply. I agree, especially on the imperfection of men. I guess my basic point was to show what can happen when we stray from the will of God (and we all do this), and the ripples that are caused by our rebellion. Even those whom we have looked upon as pillars of the faith are equally subject to fall. Oh for the day when our sanctification is finally completed as we are resurrected in righteousness! C3
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Re: Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/26/07 05:47:33 PM |
Age 20, NC |
Hagee needs to brush up on his history, because last I remembered; by the time of Luther's conversion, the Crusades had LONG since ended. (Why does Hagee always seem to trip himself up on the issue with the Jews?)
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Re: Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/26/07 06:12:53 AM |
Age 57, AR |
My Pastor says there are no minor issues in the bible. To me, minor issues are the color of the carpet, the style with which a teacher expounds the word. Find another class! Or how many bathrooms we have, etc. I dont think doctrines are minor issues. I have come to the realization that Calvinism, or whatever you want to call it, is the right doctrine. There are right doctrines! Doctrines are not subjective. The bible is not subjective. There are a couple of things I haven't reconciled yet, and may never do it. I am a black and white person, and don't believe a Christian can be in the middle of the Calvinism vs Armenianism. You are or you aren't. They are opposites, and need to be dealt with, but.....I would never listen to a teaching that told me it was "all me". It's ALL GOD!!
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Re: Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/25/07 07:29:13 PM |
Age 57, TX |
57 AR
Here are some links you can check for further reference:
http://www.lamblion.com/Web06-00.php (see page 3)
http://www.endtimepilgrim.org/antisemchurch.htm
http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/naziluth.html
There are many, many, more, just do a web search for Martin Luther "Concerning the Jews and Their lies"
C3
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Re: Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/25/07 04:08:39 PM |
Age 59, MO |
I cannot condone Luther's statements during an 8 year period in his life concerning Jews. I do think they must be understood in the light of his culture, which was largely negative toward Jews already. Lutheran scholar Eric Gritsch said that “Luther was not an anti-Semite in the racist sense. His arguments against the Jews were theological, not biological.” I am not enough an historian to validate or negate this view, but will let it stand for your interest. You may find some helpful comments on this issue at http://www.ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20Jews%20(Web).htm.
With all that is said about the final period of his life which is unfortunate, we cannot help but thank God for what was done through him to recover the idea of justification by faith alone, which was the battle cry of all the reformers. These were not perfect men and there are other incongrous matters which could be revealed about them, not the least of which was their view of anabaptists. There were living in a time of the sacral state view, which caused many problems.
I know of no evangelical Christian History scholar who does not at least appreciate Luther's courage to take on the medieval Catholic church. For this we can be grateful. Jim Elliff
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Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/25/07 12:48:10 PM |
Age 57, AR |
Jim, Please speak to the comments made by 57 TX. I want to know what you think about Luther being a warmonger and Jew hater. I have never heard anything negative about Luther before Hagee's statements. Please respond. Thanks!!
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Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/25/07 11:06:18 AM |
Age 47, MO |
I liked reading these theological roots as a reminder of whence we came religiously. However, I am always perplexed at the purpose of their reiteration. Assuming that these theses's are founded in scripture, why not expound upon scripture as the ultimate authority? Does it truly matter to my walk what Luther or Calvin said? What revelation did they have that was not already revealed? What would we call a Calvinist if John Calvin had never been born? Hopefully, we can all say that we are dead to self and alive in Christ. If we are led by the Spirit of God then our goal is to be a vessel the Lord can work thru. Yet rather than a vessel, we like to major on the minors, theorize and convice ourselves that we are correct. This is not a castigation against any one religion or doctrine but a realization of how the church is fractured over doctrinal issues that are irrelevent to the work of Christ. I think James had it right when he wrote- Show me your faith. To all Christians- talk is cheap and the word is out- less talk and more action is needed. Truly
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Re: early Christians not having Scripture
| Posted On: 10/25/07 08:08:13 AM |
Age 56, WA |
Your logic is faulty, I believe. Most certainly the early Christians had Scripture, with the books of Mark and James arriving the earliest, and the totality of the New Testament by about 65 A.D. Besides that, the Old Testament speaks volumes to person's inner man, once his spiritual darkness is cast off.
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Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/24/07 01:17:17 PM |
Age 57, TX |
This would all be well and good...except that in our zeal to give laud to Martin Luther we must not overlook his later unbiblical writings (or rantings) of 1543. In this year he wrote a pamphlet entitled "Concerning the Jews and Their Lies". In this document he referred to the Jews as "a miserable and accursed people; stupid fools; thieves and robbers; the great vermin of humanity; lazy rogues; and blind and venomous." He then proceeded to make the following propositions: 1) Their synagogues and schools should be burned 2) Their houses should be destroyed 3) Their Talmudic writings should be consfiscated 4) Their Rabbis should be forbidden to teach 5) Their money should be taken from them 6) They should be compelled into forced labor. Do these "propositions" seem eerily familiar? In 1925, Adolf Hitler published his book "Mein Kampf", where he referred to Martin Luther as a "great warrior, a true statesman, and a great reformer." A glowing endorsement from Adolf Hitler? Not exactly a stellar legacy for the "father" of the Reformation. C3
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Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/24/07 08:45:58 AM |
Age 56, MN |
yes Jim,
if people read these, and have discernment, they should easily be able to see, the roman catholic system (I will not call it a church and disgrace the LORD), is not CHRISTIAN.
DO we see anything in those 95 things Luther said, that resemble CHRISTIAN thinking from the bible.
YET so many today are foolish ( actually border on being insane) when they say things like Billy GRAHAM did, POPE JOHN was the great CHRISTIAN leader of the century.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
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Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/24/07 08:26:37 AM |
Age 50, OH |
I've read these theses before when I was au lycee. It becomes obvious upon reading them that Luther's main issue with Rome was indulgences.(I counted 10 of the theses to be concerned with that issue). Yet we should not forget that Luther was himself just as wrong as the pope in Rome about as many things. His anti-semitic writings, his regard for animals, his thoughts about scripture would offend make any modern eveangelical ). The success of his movement was because the German nobles saw a chance to not have to send their assets to Rome. It came down to money and politics.
His legacy of "sola scriptura" remains, yet this doctrine separated its followers forever from the first Christians. The first Christian had little or no scripture but relied on teaching and tradition. Thus, any sola scriptura Christian must admit that this teaching orginated in Luther's 15th century, and makes him further removed from the first Christians than any Roman Catholic.
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Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/24/07 02:16:11 AM |
Age 20, ENGLAND |
It's so nice to read something up-lifting on this website for once.
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Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/23/07 01:56:49 PM |
Age 64, OH |
These are so good Jim. Kind of makes me wish that I had written them. Thanks for passing them on. Lou
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Re: The 95 Theses of Martin Luther
| Posted On: 10/23/07 06:10:38 AM |
Age 57, AR |
I applaud and agree with Luther on these issues. This is not really related to the thesis, but help me out with this please. I heard John Hagee bad mouthing Luther on TV recently, saying that Luther was personally involved and was pretty much the one who had killed innocent people in the crusades because they would not believe in his new found faith, or follow him in it.
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