Re: Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 09:59:23 PM |
Age 72, OK |
Bless your heart, you need prayer and to have the light of the Holy Spirit shed on the messages in your Bible.
How are we going to discern the spirits if their is no judgment?
How are we going to be fruit inspecters if there is no judgment?
Yes, we are to judge oursleves before we attempt to go to anyone else's aid, but the author of "What Happens When the Chruch Puts Praimary Emphasis on Numbers and Not on Scriptural doctrin is exactly right. It is true - no one wants to hear the Bible preached in its entirity, they want motivational preaching that will hype their poor sinful souls.
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Re: Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 06:10:13 PM |
Age 42, NM |
When you posted your feedback you must not have read the caution asking you not to use the verse, "Judge not lest you be judged" unless you use it correctly. You did not use it correctly.
We are CALLED by God to recognize errant teachings, sinful behavior, and the fruit of individual lives.
Jesus gave us instruction in how to correct someone in the wrong. How do we do that unless we first judge (or determine) that that are in the wrong? Paul said, "You foolish Galatians, who bewitched you?" How could he say such a thing unless he had judged that they had become foolish in their actions and beliefs? Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 5:11 - "Now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother, but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler...with such a man do not even eat." How could Paul say that, if the people were not to form a judgment about whether or not someone was a slanderer, drunkard, swindler, etc? Then Paul continues, "What business is it of mine to judge those OUTSIDE the church?" The retorical answer is "none". Then he asks, "Are you not to judge those inside?" The retorical answer is "yes" we are to judge those inside the church. Then Paul casts his JUDGMENT against the wicked man saying, "Expel the wicked man from among you." Note that he writes this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit setting an example that we are instructed to make judgments, and judgments about doctrinal teachings are the most crucial judgments to make.
Regarding doctinal issues 2 Timothy 3 lists all kinds of behaviors of those who "have a form of godliness but deny its power." He then instructs Timothy (and us) to have nothing to do with those people. How are supposed to have nothing to do with them if we can't judge that they are of the character and/or doctrines that are repudiated?
WE MUST JUDGE IF WE ARE TO OBEY THE MANDATE OF SCRIPTURE. It is impossible to obey God in these commands without making judgments about people's actions or doctrine.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 03:13:04 PM |
Age 43, CA |
Are we afraid to share the gospel in its entire form? Do we shy away from the mention of hell? The need for repentance? All because we are afraid of the response of this unpopular message? Is it really logical to believe that the true gospel is ineffective? Or have hearts hardened and become the exact description in 2 Timothy 3? I highlighted your quote above because I have a point to prove to you. You are so judgmental brother! There is no room for judgmental people here on earth, that’s God Almighty’s job. According to what you mentioned above, What kinds of persecution are you talking about it? We have pastors, missionaries, etc sitting in prisons everywhere right now, today, because of the Name of Christ. I don’t think that all emerging churches follow the same path as you mentioned. I would not judge them because of how many people attended. We need to be careful of judging pastors and others for the work they have done for God. In Mathew 7:1 says “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge other, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measure to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in someone else’s eye and pay no attention to the plan in YOU OWN EYE? If you can show me somewhere in the Bible where you can judge the teachings, actions, doctrines, as well as furitof a person's life. The bottom line is, judgement isn't your part, judgemental is God's part. Let God do his part, let you and I do our part, as long as we do it faithfully, God will reward us in heaven. I agree with you in some decree, but most of your article, I don’t agree with. I pray and hope that God will humble yourself in order to accept what pastors are doing in their churches to save souls to Jesus, but not judging them for what they do. God bless and have a blessed day
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 02:53:34 PM |
Age 64, WA |
Unlike the author, I have no fear in mentioning names and organizations. If the people are not informed, we will not have pointed out the stumbling block that is before them and they will continue to stumble. We then become part of the problem and not part of the solution. In reality, we have a solemn obligation to lead the blind from their twilight into the real Light.
For starters, this emerging church can be laid at the feet of Bill Hybels. His worship style is based on a survey that he took among lost people, not saved people. He asked them what they didn't like about church and then promptly removed it. Of course, that included the essentials: the Blood, the cross, heaven, hell, sins by name, hymns, etc.
The end result was a sanitized religion that focuses on culture and pop psychology. It is not the gospel at all. People may inadvertantly hear that they need to be saved but they don't know from what to what.
My biggest objection to the emphasis of this movement (an old movement with a new name) is that people are taught how to be happy and exist here on earth. In fact, we are not to be happy here because we are pilgrims in a stange land just passing through to our awaiting home. Our emphasis needs to be righteousness, Christlikeness, evangelizing and discipling. These are foreign concepts to them.
My permanent home is in the Houston area and I see churches like Lakewood, Fellowship of the Woodlands, Community of Faith, etc. They are maga churches (I actually like mega churches and belong to one)but devoid of Biblical substance. People walk out of those services feeling good about life on earth and walk right back into their worldly ways without any guilt because they are not taught values and principles. If we were to ask them about separation from sin and worldliness, they would not have a clue about we were talking.
The emerging church is merely a renamed modernism and will in time become the apostate church of the future following the footsteps of the mainline denominations. We need fewer teachers and more prophets to call the people back to the Faith.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 01:05:18 PM |
Age 52, IN |
So very well said. Thank you for such a well said article. The last paragraph said it all. The churches I have been a part of have only wanted to appeal to the masses by forsaking the gospel but at the same time wanted to wear the tee shirt that said Christian. I never thought about it before but in general, the emerging church isn't any different than most of the churches in America.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 12:33:58 PM |
Age 62, GA |
This article is right on target. As many have said, "There is so much world in the Church, there is no Church (true believers) in the world."
Unfortunately, as II Tim. says, it is not going to get any better. However, God always has a remnant!
Dr. Larry E. Teboe
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 12:02:28 PM |
Age 74, OH |
I fully agree with you Ray. I live in an area that is full of liberal theology in most of our churchs. I have tried to get speaking engagements in many of them to speak about the persecuted church as I am an area representative for the Voice of the Martyrs. No luck. I have always said that it in not the size of the church that matters but the size of the heart within the church. Keep on speaking out.
Dale
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 11:25:27 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Ah yes, the 11th and 12th commandments; thou shalt not judge, and thou shalt be all things to all people. We sure live those to the letter, don't we? Yet, Christ came not to judge (yet) but to divide and seperate, to create absolutes that can only be rectified thru him. Paul said to become all things to all people as an admonishment to be proactive in spreadiing the gospel but we take it as an excuse for pasifism. It makes sense because our gospel is one of love, tolerance, and acceptance. After all, Christ loves us just the way we are and understands our struggles because he was a man. Friends, I wrote an article exposing these lies, email at jchristco@aol.com if interested. John
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DOCTRINE IS NOT THE ANSWER JESUS IS
| Posted On: 08/30/07 11:09:01 AM |
Age 63, OH |
You say (unchurched is a nice way of saying lost and going to hell). That is a very judgmental statement and is not correct. Here are a few of the people who would be in hell by your reasoning: Enoch, Abraham, the father of our faith, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Judah, Gideon, Elijah, Isaiah, Peter, John, James, Matthew, and Jesus Christ our savior. But you would also have to include me a lot of the years that I have been following the Lord Jesus Christ. Abraham NEVER went to church, nor did Peter. For that matter our Lord Jesus did not go to the synagogue many times but choose to go where the people were. Our Lord Jesus never told us to build buildings to have meetings in one time. We are told very little about even meeting together, although meeting with other Christians is such a pleasure. It is mentioned a few times in scripture. But we are told on every page of scripture to trust our Lord Jesus to save us and to trust in nothing else. We are told not to trust in the Book but to trust in the Author of the Book. We are told not to trust in doctrines or laws but to trust in the Lawgiver. We are told not to trust in men or leaders but to trust in our Creator for all of our needs. Your article talks about a problem in the church in this nation, but it does not put forth the solution but is part of the problem. There is no solution except the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have been to so many churches that have preached everything but Jesus Christ. I WANT TO HEAR NOTHING BUT JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. Lou
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 09:53:58 AM |
Age 34, TX |
Thank you for pointing out the fact that not all of the problems in the church today are limited to the emergent church movement. Too many columnists are pointing their fingers exclusively at the emergents, yet ignoring issues in their own churches.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 08:27:40 AM |
Age 36, CA |
Dear Ray,
You wrote: "it is a thought process or methodology of engaging the culture. I can’t remember ever meeting a pastor that affiliated the emerging church with where they stood theologically. Nowhere is there a doctrinal statement to which emerging leaders adhere. It is a way of thinking that encompasses a broad audience that many have put aside their beliefs for the common goal of reaching people."
I really appreciate the clarity of your wording. That really hits the nail right on the head. I have been assessing certain pastors to see if their teachings were emerging, but none of them teach the same things. It is clear they are "off" in their theology on one or several points, but they don't say agree with everything that, say, Brian McLaren says. So it was difficult to see them as emerging. But this article has solified some things in my mind. Emerging is clearly ambiguous (that's paradoxical like our subject). Fighting heresy is much more difficult in this case because the heresy is not a unified doctrine or set of doctrines that can be attacked with the Word, but a whole range of unbiblical teachings that some teach, others deny, and anyone can deny whenever they feel like it, like a pastor I used to have who said, "I reserve the right to disagree with myself."
Thank you for taking the time to write your article. Please stay in the truth war, brother.
Godspeed,
Ron Foster
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 07:34:29 AM |
Age 48, NC |
This is an excellent article. I've been waiting to hear from others regarding this topic. Sometimes those of us who are the "squeaky wheel" have a lone voice until others start speaking the truth. The 'repackaged church' may appear to be reaching more people, but in the end, when they find out the truth, the 'seekers' (I prefer to call the 'curious') leave or get saved, and more are leaving than getting saved. So speak the truth in your churches from the beginning rather than trying to sneak it in.
Pastor Larry Blythe
White Stone Christian Church
Waxhaw, NC defendthefaith@hotmail.com
WhiteStoneChristianChurch.org
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