Re: Re: Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/29/07 09:45:21 AM |
Age 51, MI |
Of course Paul defended himself in court. I would do the same. But Paul did not draw his sword against Rome. WWJD. I know of only one instance where a sword was drawn, and we know our Lord's response to that. True Christianity thrives where Christians are persecuted. Apostasy thrives where Christianity rules. This is a fact, brother. I enjoy our freedom. Don't get me wrong. But I yearn for the relationship with Him that was enjoyed by the members of the early Church, none of whom took up arms against their government.
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/29/07 09:30:38 AM |
Age 60, KS |
How can I best say....AMEN! AMEN! AND AMEN! Our nation is in deep trouble and the rights we have guarded for so long are in jeapardy. The broadcast and in many cases, the print media are no longer reporting the facts on the government but are instead spreading propaganda.
If there wasn't civil disobedience, we wouldn't have the U.S.A. We'd still be under British rule. If it weren't for civil disobedience, we'd probably have fought on in Vietnam, killing thousands more or our troops. If it weren't for civil disobedience, the African-Americans would have no civil rights and women wouldn't have the right to vote. I wonder why we even learn history when we forget it so readily.
Anyway, thanks for letting Christians know that its ok to disagree with a government that isn't acting on their and especially God's behalf. You might let a couple of the 24 hour so called news channels know this too.
Who was it that said "I have met the enemy and he is us?"
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/29/07 04:57:17 AM |
Age 55, KY |
There are a great number of pastors and priests harboring illegal aliens and promoting rebellion against the immigration laws of the United States. They are using Scripture about being kind to the "alien" to do their lawless deeds and violate Rom. 13 and I Peter 2:13, oblivious to good and just principles of immigration law that protect our population. This is teaching the illegal aliens that God supports their rebellious ways, which He does not! Only when the law forbids the preaching of the gospel, as was the case with the Jews forbidding the apostles to preach, did the apostles disobey such a command to obey the higher law of Christ. And even in this, they submitted to the authority of those who punished them and never promoted rebellion among the people.
In our nation we have more rights and responsibilities as citizens than many nations. We have the ability to affect change in the laws. We should be very careful to not promote rebellion to authority, but carefully explain those few exceptions when we must disobey. But even in those cases we are subject to the penalties of the law, wrong though they may be. Such is the price to obey God rather than men and greater the reward in heaven. I am dismayed that such a potentially dangerous subject is treated carelessly by some. Wesley, Luther, Bunyan, Hus, Peter, Paul, and our Lord Jesus all lived in times where governments had some very evil laws, but did not teach rebellion ever. They disobeyed the laws in certain cases knowing they could be punished and even executed, but were willing to lay down their lives for Christ. How many of the pastors in our generation are willing to suffer for the Lord Jesus should their obedience to God place them in that position? How many lay people for that matter? Obedience to Christ should be the focus of the issue. If we cannot obey the Lord by submitting to the governments rule, than we must disobey, but be willing to suffer the consequence, even if it is unjust. Such was the example of our Savior and his apostles.
We have the added responsibility to work to change our laws when they are bad, only within the framework of the law. Surely there could come a time when Americans would need to overthrow a tyrannical government, but let us beware that such a time has not come and should it come due to our laziness and disobedience to God's Spirit, failing to get involved in the affairs of our country, then we should be crying, "Repent!" to Christians, before supporting them in rebellion. Would it not be more profitable to cry out today, "Repent, and return to the Lord! Take up your cross and follow Him who died for you. Be willing to suffer for His name now among a rebellious and gainsaying generation before your inattention and carelessness brings the judgment of God down upon us!" Doug Roy
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/29/07 12:59:16 AM |
Age 61, IN |
The United States exists today because a group of Christian men refused to "bow down to Caesar and wrote the Declaration of Independence at the risk of their very lives because the King refused to listen to the legitimate grievances of the people.
Our nation is doing that today. As the Director of Shattered Men, I have written to dozens upon dozens of Senators, Congressman and state legislators only to be ignored or sent a letter to thank me for supporting the Violence Against Women Act...a law written by the National Organization of Women. This act encourages women to file false accusations of abuse and it rewards women for doing so. No one is allowed to question the validity of these reports. It does not offer any protection for HALF the victims of domestic abuse...MEN. As a result, more women are harmed in the long run but our children suffer the most as our homes are being destroyed at a faster and faster rate. The VAWA is the MOST DAMAGING law ever written for our families. It is not only Congress that turns a deaf ear to this....our Christian ministries do also as I have been ignored when I show unbiased research to this destruction of our families
Each one reading this is also...one false accusation away from having his life destroyed.
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 08:22:33 PM |
Age 51, SD |
Ever since Lucifer rebelled against the Godhead eons ago, there has always been a conspiracy in the works. For he not only became the "father of lies", but also the "father of conspiracies". In relation to the above article, this overt act of the government strong-arming pastors to subdue their flocks via Scripture is just another conspiracy of the larger conspiracy to destroy the true Church of Jesus Christ.
It's all too easy to take Scripture out of context and get a warped perspective of what is being said/taught, unless one is well-versed/studied/balanced. When Lucifer/Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, Satan used just enough Scripture to present valid-sounding "temptations", but with wrong/damning conclusions. Jesus - well versed/studied/balanced in Scripture - fought back with Scripture, but with correct/saving conclusions. Our Founding Forefathers were generally well-versed/studied/balanced in Scripture, which shows in how they established the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights - one of those Rights of which is the Second Amendment! - the right of self/national defense against a government run amok! which is what we have NOW in this nation - while yet claiming to be a "Christian" government!
The government and their lackeys (including like-minded pastors/priests/rabbis) can mandate Romans 13 all they want unto incorrect/harmful conclusions, but there are many other verses/chapters of Scripture that can be stood upon unto correct/rightful conclusions and unto the Salvation of this Christian Republic, even if only a Remnant is left afterwards to carry on the Dream of Liberty.
It was never God's perfect sovereign will for Lucifer to rebel and become Satan. Nor is it His perfect sovereign will for the United States to fall as Rome did. (It is not His will that ANY should perish.) Whereas Rome was birthed from pagan origins, our nation was birthed from Godly/Christian origins. How much more will we "Christians" answer unto our Holy God for the allowed destruction of our Nation if we just sit idly by and adopt the attitude of "what will be will be" or "it's prophesy and you can't change it". As it was prophesied that he who sins shall die, yet God - yes, God! - provided a "way of escape" from this sealed-dictum via the death and resurrection of His Son. The United States DOES NOT HAVE TO FALL! But are we "Christians" willing to make the sacrifices necessary to prevent such a fall?
Washington spent more time on his knees (before God) than he spent on his horse (in battle). He lost more battles than he won. Yet the battles that he did win turned the tide. Will we humble ourselves as Washington did? to preserve our Nation, as Washington did to form it? Get on your knees now and empty yourselves before the Almighty! Seek His Wisdom and the Spirit's Quickening. And then prepare for battle!
Revelation 19:11-16.
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Re: Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 07:31:27 PM |
Age 61, MO |
This article and those related to it are not advocating any violent overthrow of government. The issue is one of defending oneself against oppression of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, when there is an eminent threat by this government of that happening. The threat is even deepened when the government trys to coerce the Christian leaders to assuage their flocks. Any Christian who is in the face of eminent danger, and who would not make some effort to avert the disaster; could be found guilty of tempting the Lord thy God. George Cancilla
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 06:45:57 PM |
Age 19, CA |
I think the issue is murkier than you are trying to make it. Look at the example of David, when his men were encouraging him to kill Saul and take over Israel. After all, Samuel had appointed him as the next king. However, David never attacked Saul. He never carried banners and picket signs around Saul's house, practicing civil disobedience. Even when Saul attempted to kill him multiple times (1 Sam. 19), all David did was flee. He didn't try to overthrow Saul; in fact, the Amalekite who claimed to David that he killed Saul was killed for daring to lay a hand on the Lord's anointed (2 Sam. 1:1-16). As David makes clear over and over again, it was not his decision to decide when Saul would die or be removed from power. The decision lies with God alone. If the United States is indeed deserting the laws of God, the same things that happened to Babylon, Greece, and Rome will happen to our country. However, it is not our job to force the issue and to force people into following God's laws. If (and only if) people love God, they will keep His commandments. So our primary goal, then, is to show God's love to others so that they will love Him, too.
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 06:45:41 PM |
Age 37, GA |
I agree. In my opinion, the phrase "...we have no king but Ceasar." comes to mind when I think about these pastors that would choose governmental authority over Godly and/or moral authority. That phrase, in itself was spoken in opposition to our Lord Jesus. Since Jesus is Lord, His Word is our Law. Are we ordained to serve the government as pastors and ministers of the Gospel? Is it not our purpose to be shepherding the flock? Is it wise to take the horn from a ram? We should always pursue harmony with the government when possible but not at the expense of opposing Godly and/or moral truths. The Protestant Church came through opposition to authority. Men like Martin Luther did what was right in the sight of God and so should we.
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 06:31:24 PM |
Age 38, VA |
Praise God for Worldveiw Weekend and the 'army' of writers like Brandon and Chuck Baldwin amongst others who are not afraid to tell the truth about politics and government...
I agree whole heartedly w/ Brandon...I've had to 'oppose' local governments on several occations for trying to violate my God given and 1st ammendment right to free speech....trying to preach the Gosple in the streets....
It's incouraging to know I'm not the only one taking a stand for righteousness...
Nathan
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 04:02:43 PM |
Age 51, NE |
Most of our founding fathers who wrote the Constitution were Godly men. Now as we live in 2007, we have men who wish to re-write the Constitution, who appear not be Godly men. We should not obey worldly laws if it causes us to sin against our heavenly Father.
There are alot of Christians leaving the Church because Pastors are following the ways of the world. Please, pray for pastors.. God is doing a new thing. Remember who is the LIGHT of the WORLD **
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 03:41:16 PM |
Age 51, CA |
I agree with this artical, the so called church of our lord today, has gotten so far away from the truth, the purpose & the will of God in todays society, that even those who are wanting to learn & feed on the truth are starving to death. many pastors have been put in their positions of pastor by man & their own lustful desires. the true children of God need to rise up & answer the call of God & truly hear the cry of the people. God is waiting.
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Re: Re: Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 02:27:22 PM |
Age 35, OR |
Judging the sinful deeds of Hitler or Bonhoeffer is quite different than condemning them as souls (for which this is reserved for Christ alone). By your logic/misunderstanding we would not even hold ourselves in contempt of God's law since we would somehow be playing the role of judge. Be discerning and not reactionary.
Your analogy of seeing an evildoer in the act while possessing power to stop them is not quite equivalent in Bonhoeffer's case. You extrapolate personal responsibility to do good when possible upon the national scene where not only individuals are involved but entire peoples. The difference is that we are not expected to change the world, but we can do good as those opportunities intersect with us personally.
Colluding and conspiring with a team of insiders to take out an evil despot is not the work of the Kingdom of God, as the Lord Jesus would have His people busy themselves heaping coals of fire on their enemies with stubborn love.
There is no biblical mandate nor historical precedent for true followers of Jesus to assassinate anyone.
This too is sin, and must be dealt with at the cross or ultimately upon the sinner when Jesus judges all.
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 02:05:49 PM |
Age 84, CA |
Excellent article! Probably the
problem is exacerbated by the Internal
Revenue Service. Because of the
requirements they impose many withhold
their criticism even when they agree
with those sentiments.
A practical answer would be to eliminate their threat by eliminating them. The alternatives of sales tax and flat tax should find us emulating the THREE tithes found in the "Old" Testament which would
yield a flat tax of something like
15 - 16% of the "increase."
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Re: Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 01:50:52 PM |
Age 45, IL |
Ahem...Paul asserted his rights as a Roman Citizen to have his case heard by Cesar. That was a right of a Roman Citizen. We also have rights that are enumerated in the constitution and it would not be improper for us to assert those rights either.
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Re: Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 01:39:31 PM |
Age 43, KY |
I somewhat disagree with you on this point. When we interpret Scripture, it helps to consider the example set by the writers themselves. The governing authority during New Testament times was much more repressive than our current government, yet we don't see armed rebellion, or even self defense practiced by early Christians. The Apostles only refused to refrain from preaching the Truth. This seems to be the only occasion of disobedience against government. All went willingly to their deaths. Would the Apostle Paul preach against homosexuality? Absolutely! Would he, with sword in hand, defend his right to do so? Absolutely not
As always, with all due respect you are wrong in your assertion that they didn't rebel and the only crime they were guilty of was preaching the good news. Why did the Jewish leader want to execute Yahushua? For breaking the laws of the Talmud... Yahushua Hammashiach broke as many of the laws of the Talmud, which was considered open rebellion, as the Jews of Yahushua's time all were under the rule of the Talmud and to a lesser extent, according to the Jewish leaders of the time, the Mosaic Law, with the Talmud superseding the Mosaic Law. Did He take up arms against the Jewish leaders or the Romans? He had no need to, as rebelling against the Talmud (Oral Laws) wasn't His only purpose for being there, as you should know. Nor was He going to allow Himself to be killed before the Passover.
As for their government being much more repressive than ours, please give some examples of how so.
Mark
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Re: Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 01:16:35 PM |
Age 43, KY |
With all due respect brother, I think you are wrong. Peter didn't carry a sword to peel olives and figs! Now, don't get me wrong, Yahushua didn't teach open warfare with those who didn't believe, but He nor the Father taught total passiveness either. A totally passive man wouldn't have gone into the temple and trashed the place (money changers). I totally passive King would not be returning to wipe out all those who take up arms against the believers and Israel. You really should do a little more research and study, and this time try looking at it from the view of the folks whom it was written to... the Jews. Swords, spear, firearms are all merely tools, used by men to accomplish specific task. Did Yahushua spend a lot of time preaching about disarmament? No. Wouldn't you think that if Yahushua had be dead set against swords, He would have forbidden Peter, the man with the Keys, from carrying one? I would imagine He would have, as He didn't have a problem expressing Himself!
Just a thought.
Mark
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Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 01:06:03 PM |
Age 47, MO |
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a pasifist who in the end resisted Hitler, it took lots of persuasion to get to the point of resistance but he never got to assasinate Hitler. Hitler never showed up at the intended location and the plot was foiled.
However, Christians are to be proactive in standing for rightousness because faith requires risk. The good Samaritan would have stopped the aggression against the stranger if he got to the scene while the stranger was being acosted. I wrote an article about a Christian's responsibility and guns. Email jchristco@aol.com if interested.
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Re: Why Are Pastors SHEEPISH??? $$BAAA$$
| Posted On: 08/28/07 12:54:41 PM |
Age 56, OR |
Ahh, WELL. I just read some comments. Many years of difficulty and lots of money has my family mostly intact here in the US. We read about the US history. We read the BOOKS, the LETTERS. We also read some 'modern constructs' that our kids are taught in school. The constructs generally have decided to rewrite history, like Winston Smith did. They formulate their doctrines in neatly packaged form for most of the poulation. The responses here tend to make me think that none of you (or hardly any) have read the ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS of your Great Nation!!! Are you too PURE to pick up a rifle and become adept with it? Or would you rather preach PEACE, PEACE where there is no peace? The price of freedom is eternal vigilence. And YES! You might have to get DIRTY, or even BLOODY. Is it worth that to you? Or would you rather the 'fetus' be the only bloody one as you allow the murderous environmentalist-humanists preach population control to you?
Has the God of Patrick Henry had a change of heart? Was Adams really the wimp some liberals (maybe all) would like to portray to our children? Is the re-enactment of soppy, feminist 'theatre' about US independance really all about 'discoverering yourself'? I thought LIBERTY was formed by a bunch of ordinary courageous people that took the gates of Hell by storm, laid down their lives and founded our country! And like the Children of Israel, when they cried out to the Lord God in adversity and need and showed they had contempt for their pride and posessions and poured themselves out... Then was a NATION BORN.
I will tell you: if you get your education from the Muddia, you will be ignorant. If you get your spiritual perspective from the News Muddia, you will be someone's patsy.
Eagles do not fly in flocks. Whatsoever you ALLOW to be sowed will be reaped. So far we are reaping quite a whirl-wind. Do NOT disdain our founding fathers and their examples. True, they were also human with weaknesses. But they were not COWARDS!! PGW
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Re: Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 12:33:09 PM |
Age 50, MN |
Your approach is becoming more rare in today's world. Thank you for being a ray of warmth.
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Re: Re: Why Are Pastors Agreeing To Violate The U.S. Constitution?
| Posted On: 08/28/07 12:07:42 PM |
Age 61, MO |
Jesus was angry when He chased the moneychangers from the temple. The Jews and the Roman government were colluded to control the people. Such is the case in the world today. George Cancilla
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