Re: Re: GOD WANTS MANY BROTHERS
| Posted On: 09/05/07 08:38:26 PM |
Age 20, NV |
I figured I'd better toss this in just in case, so that nobody thinks I just made this particular interpretation about the love of God up. The natural objection is that if it is true, God would be an idolater because He would be directing supreme love to something other than Himself. But like I said, the Christian is one with Christ in spirit. Another great Biblical example is Ephesians 5:25-32 where Paul discusses the union of Christ to the Church, how we are truly members of His Body, and how in loving and caring for us Christ simultaneously loves Himself and us.
Furthermore, in John 15:9 and John 17:23 some may say, "Well, it cannot possibly mean loved EXACTLY as." But actually, Greek the word used for "as" is the word "kathōs." According to the late theolgoain Dr. James Montgomery Boice, this is the strongest possible word to use in this context, meaning exactly as, to the same degree and extent as. You can listen to Boice's archvied commentary on John 17:23 called "God's Impartial Love" at http://www.accradio.com/Boice/Programs.htm in which he explains the concept in more detail.
And the Reformers behind the 1599 Geneva Study Bible remarked on John 17:26:
"He communicates the knowledge of the Father with his own little by little, which knowledge is most full in Christ the mediator, that they may in him be beloved by the Father, with the selfsame love with which he loves the Son."
( Source: commentary taken from http://www.e-sword.net/ )
Selfsame being an old English word which Encarta (World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © & (P)2007 Microsoft Corporation. at Encarta.com) defines as: "identical: being the very same."
Even the Reformed scholars behind this famous study Bible which preceded the King James Version thought this way. Some other examples (and there are more, of course) include:
John Calvin:
http://www.biblestudyguide.org/comment/calvin/comm_vol35/htm/vii.vi.htm
Thomas Goodwin (Puritan):
http://www.puritansermons.com/goodwin/good07.htm
Charles Spurgeon:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1982.htm
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1667.htm
Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4027/lloydjones17.html
Dr. Sinclair Ferguson:
http://spurgeon.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/banner-truth-ministers-conference-sinclair-ferguson/
(Point 1, subpoint B)
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Re: GOD WANTS MANY BROTHERS
| Posted On: 09/03/07 02:49:25 PM |
Age 20, NV |
Well, it does seem that God's great aim is to glorify Himself, but we need to remember that it is not because God needs to be glorified in our sight. He was already perfect in His triune self in eternity, so for God to create us and redeem us for the purpose of manifesting His glory is an ultimately loving thing. Specifically, too, it seems that God's goal in all creation was not just to manifest His glory generally, but to gather a Bride for His Son. And because the Father in His sovereignty has united His elect to His Son, He loves them as much as He loves the Son (John 17:23,26) and the Son loves them as much as the Father loves the Son, too (John 15:9); and since the Son and the Father are both God, it would not be a big stretch to say that because of this, God loves the Christian as much as He loves Himself BECAUSE, and only because, we are united to His Son. And in loving the Christian that way, God simultaneously loves Himself. And in loving other Christians, we simultaneously love God. It is a Biblical principle that things done to Christians are things simultaneously done to God. (cf. Matthew 25:35-40,42-45; Acts 9:1-5)
This is where I think Dr. Piper's theology is a bit off. He is right that God is the last end of all things and seeks His glory in all things, but we also need to remember that the Christian is one spirit with Christ, a member of His body (1 Corinthians 6:15-17). Therefore everything God does for His own sake and glory is simultaneously done for and loving to us, since we are one with Him. We need to be careful from turning this into Eastern mysticism, since we do not become deity like God is, but He is our Bridegroom and "one spirit" nonetheless.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 09/03/07 01:42:23 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Friend: Why do you think in the past? Christ is in the present, he is the great I AM not the great I WAS! Christian eternity starts now and grows the moment you turn your life over to Him. Jesus will come in and take residence in your heart now, he will redeam you now and make you Holy now so that you and HE can commune together. There is no other perfect joy than to know God! Email me if you wish, jchristco@aol.com
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GOD WANTS MANY BROTHERS
| Posted On: 08/31/07 10:22:36 AM |
Age 63, OH |
John your articles are pretty good but you get no cigar on this one. You spoke a lot of truth and came close but did not ring the bell. GOD IS NOT LOOKING TO GLORIFY HIMSELF. He wants us to be like Him so that would mean that we should glorify ourselves. We should not glorify ourselves. When God became a Man it was the Revelation of God that he wants to sit at the highest place in heaven. Philippians 2:5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.--- Jesus was God but was humble and meek. He was not looking to be exalted and Jesus was God. Jesus was NOT looking to be worshiped and he was God. Jesus was our example.1 Thess 5;16Be joyful always; 17pray continually; 18give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.-- God wants us to give thanks in all circumstances. He does not say be thankful but give thanks. If we give thanks he will make us thankful. Thankfulness is the caboose that follows our giving thanks. When we are thankful we are conformed to His image. It is impossible to be thankful and not be more like Him for it conforms us to His image. Romans 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29FOR THOSE GOD FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE LIKENESS OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.-- So god died for us so that we would know that he loved us and be thankful. When we are thankful we are conformed to His image and He has many brother with which to fellowship with. God wants us to be like Him for he is humble and meek. Lou
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Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/30/07 03:19:23 PM |
Age 33, TN |
That was so good. After all, in eternity, what are we going to be doing? God worshipping us or we ourselves? NO. We'll be worshipping HIM. Jesus states also that eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. We'll be singing the song of the Lamb for all eternity. And how could we not,after experiencing this great love, and then seeing Him in all His fullness of glory and splendor at last.
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Re: Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/29/07 01:37:00 PM |
Age 50, MS |
We were MADE (created) to share fellowship with Him in a perfect Creation that He designed for our benefit. I cannot imagine any other point to the endeavor than that we humans and our Maker should find enjoyment in each other. What we did with that perfect creation and that perfect relationship is another story, but the extent He was willing to go to in order to redeem us is a testimony to how highly He valued that relationship.
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Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/29/07 11:13:45 AM |
Age 51, IA |
If we find no joy in Christ, how can we glorify Him? Acts of kindness performed solely out of a sense of obligation are generally not well received by the object of our kindness. How much more, then, would it be the case that glorifying God with our mouths when our hearts do not delight in Him would be a stench in His nostrils?
Delighting in God is an integral part of giving Him glory.
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Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/29/07 11:09:11 AM |
Age 51, IA |
My name is Matthew M. Murch. I work in the field of mental health, coordinating the activities of staff who provide in-home support services to people with mental illnesses. I agree that most people in my profession see positive feelings of self-worth as the proper goal of services. I agree that this is contrary to the design of God, and can testify that those who make self-worth the be-all and end-all of mental health succeed in destroying more lives than the perpetrators of deliberate abuse who set the person up for mental illnesses in the first place, in those cases where there is such a background for the illness.
Even in the many situations where the rules under which I work forbid me from defining my comments as originating from a bilblical world view with the people I serve, I have seen far better success rates by encouraging those who suffer from mental illnesses to divert their focus to helping others in greater need. Additionally, it has been my experience that those who attempt to follow this advice, and have any success at it, often wind up seeking after God in a more direct way. That is to say, when they begin to pursue a path of helping others, they soon discover their own inadequacy and begin to look outside themselves for strength. When I am directly asked for my personal opinion on religious matters, I am permitted to answer. As a result of this, I have seen many mentally ill people come to a saving knowledge of Christ, and see real change in their mental health as a direct result.
Keep preaching the truth of a God-centered life of service.
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Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/28/07 04:32:36 PM |
Age 66, NH |
ECC 2:24 A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God,
25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment?
26 To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
1TI 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
2TI 3:2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God -
What Piper is saying here in this article is that we inappreciative humans, think more of ourselves than we do of God. We have forgotten how to enjoy Him and are thinking only of ourselves.
Thank you.
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Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/28/07 04:24:35 PM |
Age 47, AL |
The enjoyment of God is being free to glorify Him forever. That is when we can truly find joy, not just self-satisfaction, but freedom from ourselves to enjoy the glory of the One and only Creator God. To me that would be "enjoying God".
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Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/28/07 04:19:44 PM |
Age 66, NH |
ECC 2:24 A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God,
25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment?
26 To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
1TI 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
2TI 3:2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God -
What Piper is saying here in this article is that we inappreciative humans, think more of ourselves than we do of God. We have forgotten how to enjoy Him and are thinking only of ourselves.
Thank you.
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Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/28/07 02:35:16 PM |
Age 50, MS |
Wow!
Mr. Piper's statement did not originate with him. It is from the Westminster Shorter Catechism, written in the 1640's, which I memorized as a child in my Presbyterian Church forty years ago: "What is the chief end of man? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever." ...still remember it.
If you've missed the fact that the joyful celebration of God for His children and, conversely, of His children for Him is a central theme of the Scripture, then you really should go back re-read your Bible with your eyes opened to see, your ears to hear, and your heart to receive. I could list specific verses, and the list would extend for at least a mile. But I would rob you of the joy of discovery. Believe me, enjoyment is there, represented by one synonym or another, on almost every page.
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Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/28/07 01:10:30 PM |
Age 19, CANADA |
Hmm, i think that part of why we are made is to enjoy God. It is clear in scripture that we were made to have a relationship with God. (Ezekiel 16; Hosea; Rev. 19:7; Matt. 25; Song of Solomon; Luke 15:11-31 etc.) and so naturally we ought to enjoy being with God.
God Bless,
Trenton.
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Re: Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/28/07 12:52:40 PM |
Age 47, MO |
You say that we were not made to enjoy God? Friend; we were made to share in God's suffering and Paul considered it all joy to suffer for Jesus. You see, just like light is pronounced in a dark room, joy is pronounced in the mist of suffering. We would not know what love is without knowing sin. Satan is the opposite of Christ just like self is the opposite of Christianity. Agape love is the choice to be sacrificial but today Christianity is what I term "pride of ownership" or what's in it for me. Thus Christ will say, "depart from me, I never knew you". I wrote an article about this, email if interested at jchristco@aol.com
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Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/28/07 08:23:55 AM |
Age 43, NE |
Love this article, It is not about us it is about the Lord God, and his precious son Jesus Christ, and I see in my own life how I miss Love when Self enters in and that is were I miss Love than and choose the other self and flesh. Which self spelled backwards is flesh when you add the h. God is Love and why not give all the love to him so he gets the glory and we get Joy. It is all so good and wonderful, Thank you lord Jesus for loving us and dying for us. Give us the strength to Love you,so you may have all the Glory.
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Re: The Goal of God's Love May Not Be What You Think It Is
| Posted On: 08/28/07 04:52:48 AM |
Age 47, WV |
I do like John Piper but sometimes he's prone to slipping statements in such as in his first paragraph: "We were made to enjoy God." and then goes on to say in the rest of the article how it's for God's glory that we were made. I don't see in the bible that we were made to enjoy God. Ultimately, everything is to the glory of God.
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