Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/17/07 11:00:27 AM |
Age 46, MN |
Prayer is an act of worship acknowledging God's sovereignty. We honor God through our requests. Prayer also reminds us of the needs of our fellow man, making us more responsive to them.
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Re: Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/09/07 06:55:09 PM |
Age 56, MN |
I find it so frustrating when MEN or WOMEN like to tamper with GODS words.
Jesus died on the cross for the sins of all men.
Does does one accept that, by repenting and asking GOD to forgive us, for sending JESUS there, and being regenerated, saved or reborn.
Calvinsist and FREE willy thinkers, are both WRONG.
we have NO free will, rather a WILL, but it has NEVER been free, adam and EVE found that out when they messed with GOD.
NOR did GOD have his son die on the cross for some ELECT few.
BOTH of these ideas are from PEOPLE using their HEADS to think thru.
PAUL: tells us NOT to do that.
LEAN NOT on your OWN understanding.
DO people take heed to that warning, NO WAY< they will DO IT ANYWAY.
really gets sickening when people want to add to or tamper with GODS word.
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/09/07 03:33:09 PM |
Age 19, FL |
Thank you, John Piper. This is a very encouraging article. I don't remember you saying anything about Calvinsim in the first place, you simply spoke from the Bible. The fact that God did not have to elect any of us, allows all the pride about having free will to go down the tubes. As if we had any rights before God anyways. Does the term slaves to righteousness mean anything??
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Re: Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/09/07 03:28:57 PM |
Age 19, FL |
John Piper explains this from the beginning. It is man's sin that makes him dead. It seems as if John is explaining that God did not have to elect any of us because of our sin. The Bible makes it clear that man has a choice but his choice is bound by sin. There is stability.
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/09/07 10:42:32 AM |
Age 47, MO |
I have quit arguing with Calvinistic or Arminian followers, here is why.
For Calvin to be correct, then God is the author of sin and evil
For Arminius to be correct, then men seek God and find Him.
However, if the path is straight and narrow, then those on the fringe left and the fringe right are both in error.
Biblically, God draws, God saves, man chooses, man strives and contends for what he cherishes. Therefore man is responsible, accountable, and will remain under grace or under the law as he lives and believes. Absence of faith is sin.
Finally, our remarks, disagreements, or teaching will not change anyone's opinion and belief. We must agree to disagree and let the Spirit teach us the deep truths. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Point being, quit majoring on the minors, die to self, serve God and others.
Paul said to quit devouring one another, now quit being wise/fools and play nice!!
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Re: Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/09/07 09:51:47 AM |
Age 28, TX |
In my view, one may refuse God's calling for a time, but God's will shall be done. God gives us opportunities that we sometimes miss, and this is inside his circle of allowed choices and behavior. Everything outside of that is required of us, such as God's plan for Pharaoh in Exodus. God hardened and softened his heart according to God's plan, not Pharaoh's!
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Good commentary
| Posted On: 08/08/07 10:30:23 PM |
Age 56, OR |
I think your commentary good. It is a shame that these 'doctrines' even exist to muddy the waters of a Divine clarity of trust in the Almighty, Who made us for His pleasure. It is not necessary to sate the 'tension' that God inspires in us. This tension keeps us watchful; on our toes; always willing to learn from the Bible, the Holy Spirit and personal prayer. Ever pressing onwards and upwards... What some of us may forget is that in the Heavenlies is a very NASTY adversary that is trying to blind, distort, kill and maim 24/7. I am quite convinced that when an 'issue' comes to our hearts, almost compelling us to pray, it has something to do with interceeding Spiritually for a particular individual, happening or outcome. There is a war going on in the heavenlies that we have been called to partake in (albeit in ignorance perhaps) but that is why the Spirit may interceed for us and give us the words and ideas. I think some of man's doctrines are two-dimentional and simple. Thus they can be misleading. Thanks for your comments of clarity. PGW
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/08/07 11:40:58 AM |
Age 41, VA |
Wow.. I was just discussing this with a friend last week! We were discussing the 'lost' in the countries so far away that may not have heard the gospel yet.
We came up with the fact that God would raise up a messenger in each area needed where there are people who will be saved.
He said he will.
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/07/07 07:12:39 PM |
Age 49, TN |
I've thought on this subject before. I have never really heard what I thought was an audible voice from God, but He has shown me answers in His Word many times and led me by the Holy Spirit in answers to my questions. Once I was praying and asked God almost the exact question of this article. Almost instantly i felt the answer of "because of the Love...". Please consider for yourselves what this answer would mean in your own experience with God and your fellow men.
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/07/07 12:45:27 PM |
Age 53, FL |
Because man is made in the image and likeness of God, he has a masterful dignity, the human person is a subject with a conscientiousness that allows him to act in full responsibility. God willed to leave man in the power of his own counsel, so that he would seek his Creator of his own accord and would freely arrive at full and blessed perfection by cleaving to God. If faith is the most determinant act of the person as a person because of a complete handing over of the self to the revealing Self of Christ, then we have to consider how the self is able to be handed over, such that it can be a gift. And how could there be a gift that is not free? Freedom now takes on the meaning of having the use and possession of oneself, which is manifested in the experience of responsibility. And responsibility implies the exercise of a freedom that is dependent on truth.
Their conscience bears witness together with that law, their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when in accordance with the Gospel I preach, God will pass judgment on the secrets of men through Jesus Christ.' (Rom 2:15)"
There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are, free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28). Why because God always knows all things: "..God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).
Prayer is a mighty thing to God because it shows the conviction of those who pray. God is free to answer the prayer and change a man's heart making him receiptive at anytime. What God desires most is the freely given heart.
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/07/07 08:09:37 AM |
Age 56, MN |
I give you an,"atta boy" when you deserve it. this is not one of those times! You have many assertions that are based in flawed logic and grace. Prayer, you said, is a request to God. Like many other sentences in your article this one is sometimes right. It is incomplete also like many other assertions you make. You struggle to make the Bible match your "theology". work at putting them together and you won't be so defensive.
Remember, your theology should fit the context of the Bible not the other way around.
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/07/07 06:46:15 AM |
Age 54, ENGLAND |
Dear John,
Thank you for this and may God truly bless you for the clear teaching and encouragement to prayer. Intercession for the lost vs the Sovereignty of God and the doctrine of Divine Election are issues to which I have given much attention and prayer during the past year and I have discussed it with my close friends.
Towards the end of 2006 I was given a burden of prayer for a troubled young woman whom I almost never see and have little to no communication with. Yet the Holy Spirit clearly has led me to love and intercede for her through prayer. I think you would agree that the highest desire one may have for others as a blessing is that person's salvation. If one believes CS Lewis' definition of love is true ("Love is not affectionate feeling, but a steady wish for the loved person's ultimate good as far as it can be obtained." )then the salvation of that person's soul must surely be that ultimate good.
I do not know why a particular person is laid before us (my sister often prays quietly and confidently for Dr Richard Dawkins, the fervent atheist, who is himself so troubled by God)and she is absolutely confident of his conversion; we do not know the answer to why but we cannot deny these calls to prayer when they come. Your explanation goes a very long way to resolving this seeming paradox.
I go somewhat further and see Doctrine of Divine Election specifically as two groups of mankind but each of these are *revealed* in time. I do not believe that saved or lost applies to an individual a priori that person being given life and living his or her life. It is THAT which moves me to intercessory prayer - that and the knowledge that I can do nothing whatever (in this case) to plant, water, or harvest this particular soul. To be In Christ or outside of Him are the only two choices facing all of humanity - from Adam to the last man. We must pray more for those we know are presently outside and let God show us what He can and will happily do.
In the Lamb -
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/07/07 05:33:12 AM |
Age 29, NC |
Don't think I don't like John Piper (I like him, as I like R.C. Sproul) I just cannot follow him in his strong calvinistic position regarding predestination. In the article Piper responds to a reasonable question challenging the strong calvinist perspective on evangelism with a counter-question that automatically assume the questioner maintains a strong Arminian position. "If you insist that this man must have the power of ultimate self-determination, what is the point of praying for him?" The original question need not imply that the person holds to a strong autonomous view of man's will. I don't need to deny that Divine action is necessary in conversion in order to maintain that man's will is also involved. This is the classic calivinist manuver that creates a false dichotomy between Calvinism and Arminianism, then forces the person to see the flaws in the Arminian position. Scripture does not commit us to strong calvanism even though we (rightly) reject Arminianism. Further, Piper implies a more reasonable position in his response before glossing over it and reverting back to the strong calvinist line. Notice he says, "You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is, you are conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's, not merely his." The 'merely' functions in this last sentence to give the impression that the man's will is indeed involved, although is not the "ultimate" determination of salvation. I am not quite sure what the function of 'ultimate' is in this sentence. Given Piper's other writings we must assume what he means is that God is 'solely' responsible for the mans's conversion. If he does mean 'solely' responsible, then the original question "why pray?" still stands, but if he means something other than 'solely' then he implies the individual's will is also invovled (although not necessarily solely responsible, as the strong Arminian would maintain). Finally, Piper concedes that God works through secondary causes like preaching to bring about the final state of a man's salvation. It seems obvious that if God can work through other secondary causes to bring about a man's conversion, He can also work through the man's own mind, emotions, and will (without circumventing the nature of the will's freedom, which He created) as a secondary cause of the man's salvation. "Ultimately" God is the cause of the man's understanding and acceptance of the Gospel under the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but it can be affirmed that the man is involved in receiving (a passive action) the Gospel of his own free will. The trouble comes when one wants to maintain either an "All Sovereinty, no freedom" position or an "All Freedom, no Divine Action" position. If we maintain the mysterious tension found in Scripture we can comfortably affirm "God saved me" and "I trusted Christ when I was (blank) years old."
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Re: The Sovereignty of God and Prayer
| Posted On: 08/06/07 11:00:09 PM |
Age 25, NC |
Mr. Piper,
I understand your point, but I believe you cut your own throat as well. You state, "If someone refuses to be a part of that plan, because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born, then he will be the loser, not God and not the elect." However, according to your particular view of predestination, how can anyone "refuse to be a part" of God's plan. If God ordains everything, then why do we not also hold him responsible for causing the person to "refuse to be part" of his plan? Ultimately, you betray the problem that Calvinists have with their own hard determinism; that is, when it comes to the saved, Calvinists are full-bore determinists, but when dealing with the lost they become Wesleyan free-willers. There has to be, and is, a middle ground. If you are going to be one or the other, then please follow it to its logical conclusion. Otherwise, find the middle ground.
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