Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/16/07 12:52:48 AM |
Age 37, WI |
I've thought of another name for this article...It could be called "Church Politics, Heed them and/or weep". We have tried or plan to do most if not all the things on this top 10 list. I work as a church secretary (starting my 9th year in Sept.), and trust me I have seen and heard it all. Our last Pastor was there for 15 years and left in 2005, and I got to see first hand over the span of these past 8 years the "inner workings" of a church, and trust me it wasn't and still isn't always pretty. We tried many new programs and they'd start of with a bang, but would then fade away after a while, because there was no deep commitment and the ones who started the programs (leadership), expected and encouraged everyone else to volunteer, without themselves setting any kind of example to follow. It didn't start out this was but in the last 3-4 years of his tenure, the sermons that our pastor preached it seems were not practiced as per what I saw and observed (the other 6 days of the week), which was very difficult for me to comprehend and understand. I saw and questioned too much it seemed, because he (the pastor) tried to "run" me out, by playing the game of "I have all the control, and I know how to manipulate the system." And the elders in which I was suppose to be able to go to and confide in, when I had concerns or needed guidance, did not want to listen nor deal with me, but only took what the pastor said about me as the truth. We now have a new pastor (just over a year now), a much younger one and while he is doing great things, the same kind of "good 'ole boy" system is beginning to rear it's ugly head again. (The "Don't ask/question, Don't tell" policy comes to mind.) I am not perfect and have been humbled many times, and some instances were warranted, but many were not, seeing as open and early communication (with me as well) could have spared alot of the strife for everyone. Anyhow you are probably wondering, "If she has had it so bad and still does, then why doesn't she just leave?" Trust me, as of late I have seriously considered it as maybe a sign, but still feel that God is not finished with me there yet, because I am there for Him and I love the people, and will not let a man (a few men) drive me away. Obviously this article struck a nerve, but I feel that these programs if used as a secondary focus and not the primary one, could and can be a great asset in helping win souls for the kingdom, as long as the heart and mindset are in line with what God commands and says in his word. Please pray for me and my family and my church, as things are slowly getting better, but we still have a long way to go. God bless!
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Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/09/07 04:19:17 PM |
Age 49, KY |
I've been a senior pastor for 25 + years. I consider myself fairly conservative yet I am watching this generation (not just the young) and am constantly looking for new and inovative ways of reaching them with the Gospel. Are we moving back the legalistic days of the yesteryear when we lost a generation due to hard and often unbiblical attitudes. The Gospel message can never change but I am forever reminded of a verse in the Bible, "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some" (1 Cor. 9:22). The man who wrote this verse was found witnessing amidst a group of Areopagus. His concern was salvation not whether or not coffee was allowed in the sanctuary. I wonder if we are missing something?
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Re: Re: THREE WAYS TO GROW A CHURCH WITH GOD
| Posted On: 07/09/07 12:31:48 PM |
Age 63, OH |
Brother I agree but no man can do this but Only the Holy Spirit of Jesus. The Holy Spirit of Christ is the only one who can cause us to love for God is the source of all love. As to the speaking in tongues and the other things that 1 Cor 14 says MUST BE DONE FOR THE STRENGTHENING OF THE CHURCH. I did not write 1 Cor 14 but the Holy Spirit did. The Holy Spirit said these things must all be done to strengthen the church. I go to some churches and all the people are speaking in tongues in mass confusion and I do not detect the Holy Spirit in their speaking. It does not seem to be following Paul's instruction at all. Then I go into others that treat speaking in tongues as from the Devil himself. But in almost all the churches I go into their is one man preaching ( and he does not seem a prophet) not several prophets preaching. It seems that this instruction from Paul is not being followed and Paul said it must be done for a strong church. Our churches sure seem to be dying maybe this is one of the reasons. Lou
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Re: THREE WAYS TO GROW A CHURCH WITH GOD
| Posted On: 07/08/07 09:35:01 AM |
Age 63, OR |
Speaking in tongues and interpreting those unknown tongues does not in itself "grow the church". It is a gift...and a lesser gift... to be exercised appropriately and not necessarily all the time.
What grows the church is fulfilling God's love in each believer's life for others (being Christ like) and teaching God's Word, book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, precept upon precept.
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Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/08/07 09:30:29 AM |
Age 64, OR |
Jesus made it perfectly clear when he said to the apostle Peter: "Feed my sheep...feed my lambs, feed my sheep". What more does church leadership need to understand about that? And certainly he was not referring to coffee and donuts, but His Word!
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Re: But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
| Posted On: 07/07/07 12:03:27 AM |
Age 53, IA |
The main purpose the church (the saved) assembles is for fellowship and worship. If a church consistently followed the "Ten Ways..." it would soon drive away the sheep and soon consist of only goats. Aren't we worldly enough with prizes given to those who attend the most services and dress up days (that just happen to coincide with halloween)???
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Re: Query about #7
| Posted On: 07/06/07 11:12:23 PM |
Age 53, IA |
It appeals to the flesh rather than the spirit.
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Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/06/07 02:14:36 PM |
Age 30, GA |
i see this "top 10" all over the place.
is anyone out there working on a list of "right on" churches for a directory we all can reference?
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WHAT HAPPENED TO ISRAEL WHEN DAVID COUNTED THE PEOPLE
| Posted On: 07/06/07 10:41:36 AM |
Age 63, OH |
Nearly every church I go to seems to count the people or count the converts to Christ. I think they need to read their Bible and see how displeased God was with David when He counted his troops for war. Judgment came on all of Israel for what David did. When will we learn to stop counting the troops. Do we not believe God is not a respecter of persons. If God was displeased with David for counting, He will be displeased with us for counting. When will we learn that numbers is not what God is looking for. He is searching to and fro through the whole earth looking for one man who fears His Word. Look at the story of Gideon. 32000 men showed up for battle but God whittled this number down to 300 to defeat the enemy. Why 300, because that is the number of men who feared God more than the enemy and did not trust in the fact that they were from Israel but trusted only in God Almighty. God did not need 300 but could have done it just as well with one man. After all one man and God makes a majority. Lou
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Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/06/07 08:48:08 AM |
Age 46, TN |
So what do you think are God’s top ten ways to grow a church?
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Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 08:29:41 PM |
Age 72, OK |
This is the very reason my husband and I seek smaller churches, making sure the preaching of God's Word and genuine worship are the primary reasons for meeting. In our family Bible Study, we recently took a hard look at Lev. 10 which deals with the "Strange fire" offered by Nadab and Abhihu - typifying the false worship of what man declares is pleasing to our Most Holy God. The ten ways to grow a church without God is certainly an example of offering "Strange fire" to the Lord and expecting Him to bless it.
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Re: Query about #7
| Posted On: 07/05/07 02:29:00 PM |
Age 27, IL |
Just a note to the one who ask what is supposedly wrong with giving someone information and showing them around...there is nothing wrong with giving someone information about your church and showing them around. The author never said there was. Here is a quote from his article..."Not everything on the list is bad, but it is the order that I had them in and what was missing." He openly admitted that not everything was bad. Just wanted to point you back to the article...God bless.
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THREE WAYS TO GROW A CHURCH WITH GOD
| Posted On: 07/05/07 02:18:21 PM |
Age 63, OH |
Here are three ways to grow a church with God: 1 - Preach nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. There is not one book of the Bible that does not have Jesus Christ and Him crucified as it's message. Even the Book of Esther. If you can not see Jesus Christ crucified in any part of the Bible ask God and He will show you for He gives wisdom to those who ask. 2 - Jesus told us that the sons of God are those who walk in the Spirit, so this takes the burden off of you and puts it onto the Holy Spirit. Your job is to leave the Holy Spirit lead and not get in His way. People want to hear from God and not men. If a man leaves God speak through him the people will flock to hear as they did Jesus Christ. 3 - Jesus gives us a example in the 1st miracle at the wedding when He changed the water to wine. The stone jars are symbols of the clay jars that Paul say that God has put this treasure in. The water is a symbol of the water of the word or the scripture. The water becomes wine when it is poured out. The wine is the fruit of the spirit that has been crushed so the impurities can be removed by the Holy Spirit. The impurities settle to the bottom of the jar and the wine is on top. If we leave the people of God pour out this water it becomes wine. Any true Christian who has the Holy Spirit will be compelled to come to a church that he and others are constantly pouring out this water that becomes wine. For we see the Holy Spirit speaking through us and others and it is life. Paul confirms this in 1 Cor 14:26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. ALL OF THESE MUST BE DONE for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. - Notice that Paul says that these MUST be done. Any church that does not do these things will NOT be like the church of the apostles of Christ. That is why the church is so dead in this nation. Lou
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PREACH JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED
| Posted On: 07/05/07 02:14:05 PM |
Age 63, OH |
Paul answered your question very well I thought: 1 - Preach nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. There is not one book of the Bible that does not have Jesus Christ and Him crucified as it's message. Even the Book of Esther. If you can not see Jesus Christ crucified in any part of the Bible ask God and He will show you for He gives wisdom to those who ask. 2 - Jesus told us that the sons of God are those who walk in the Spirit, so this takes the burden off of you and puts it onto the Holy Spirit. Your job is to leave the Holy Spirit lead and not get in His way. People want to hear from God and not men. If a man leaves God speak through him the people will flock to hear as they did Jesus Christ. 3 - Jesus gives us a example in the 1st miracle at the wedding when He changed the water to wine. The stone jars are symbols of the clay jars that Paul say that God has put this treasure in. The water is a symbol of the water of the word or the scripture. The water becomes wine when it is poured out. The wine is the fruit of the spirit that has been crushed so the impurities can be removed by the Holy Spirit. The impurities settle to the bottom of the jar and the wine is on top. If we leave the people of God pour out this water it becomes wine. Any true Christian who has the Holy Spirit will be compelled to come to a church that he and others are constantly pouring out this water that becomes wine. For we see the Holy Spirit speaking through us and others and it is life. Paul confirms this in 1 Cor 14:26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. ALL OF THESE MUST BE DONE for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. - Notice that Paul says that these MUST be done. Any church that does not do these things will NOT be like the church of the apostles of Christ. That is why the church is so dead in this nation. Lou
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
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But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
| Posted On: 07/05/07 02:11:03 PM |
Age 38, FL |
Hi Ray,
Please keep in mind that there are some churches who are using technology to their advantage to reach the lost. Call it 'seeker friendly' or 'sensitive' or whatever. In the end, the "unchurched" are hearing about righteousness, temperance, and the judgment to come, along with the Gospel.
Michael / Destin FL
"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." -The Apostle Paul
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Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 12:16:42 PM |
Age 37, TX |
I'm kind of old-fashioned; Whatever happened to - "And I, if I am (Yeshua) lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (Jon 12:32)? The first time I went out to plant a congregation my pastor told me, "Make sure you have a nice logo; and an effective marketing plan." Forget the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. It's truly amazing where the body of Messiah is headed today; if its headed anywhere at all. I pray daily for the body.
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Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 10:48:27 AM |
Age 28, TX |
That's interesting. So, do you only pray on Saturdays? It must be rough worshipping a god who isn't around six days of seven.
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Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 10:10:30 AM |
Age 54, TN |
My heart aches for the young church planter seeking to reach people who are burned out, fed up, and mad at God. Where is the help that this article gives him? This article is typical of the negativity that appears on this site. It is a matter of focus. Jesus calls us to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." It is true that mere entertainment does not win people to Christ. But I wonder whether many of the "gospel concerts" that churches have are not mere entertainment as well. I am concerned about the attitude "the worship service is for God only and if unbelievers show up, well that is their business." Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 that he is concerned about how unbelievers perceive what goes on in a service. The service should minister to both the believer and the unbeliever.
I once saw an old war movie in which the sailors constantly criticized one officer, saying he cared only for ships, not for men. He finally turned on them and said, "Yes, I care about ships. Do you know why? Ships have decks, and men stand on those decks." Growth means bringing in people where they can hear the Gospel. Bring them in, and make sure that they hear the Gospel when they get there.
John Simmons
http://drjwsimmons.pbwiki.com
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Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 09:40:09 AM |
Age 45, CA |
Do you keep ALL the Sabbaths, not just the seventh day sabbath? You know Christ died on a Wednesday (3 full days and 3 full nights in the grave) because there were two sabbaths that week? Do you keep them all? do you follow ALL the law? If you break one, you break them all. There's the food laws, the clothing laws.... keep them?
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
And finally, The sabbath was given as a day of REST. CHURCH IS NOT REST. It's lots of work, even for people just going to church let alone the workers. Under the law, every other day of the week was a day to go to the temple, sacrificing occurred all the time, The sabbath was a rest from one's labors. One was supposed to stay home and not travel, not even light a fire, food was supposed to be prepared the day before or not cooked on the Sabbath. Do you keep that? Read your Old Testament, there's a lot of very good stuff in there. Even salvation and grace.
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Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 09:14:44 AM |
Age 45, CA |
Door to door brother, it was the only way given in the Bible. We are a small community and we hit the same doors several times, but this can be a good thing. It allows for development of relationships, and hopefully trust, eventually if the hearts are softened, salvation. They are supposed to be saved before they join the church according to the Bible. Just start with www.blueletterbible.org and plug in "church" in your search bar. It may not be effective according to world standards, but the model is in the Bible, we must find it there.
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