Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/11/07 12:06:31 AM |
Age 19, NV |
Well, yes, because if salvation cannot be revoked (Romans 11:29) then no sin in the life of a true Christian will ever damn them. However, this is NOT teaching "security in sin." The real issue is that if someone is living like a heathen as an ongoing style of life, that is the evidence that they were never saved to begin with. However, we unfortunately all can and do sin (1 John 1:8) and that is why we all need daily repentance as we grow closer to God in holiness.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/10/07 01:17:03 AM |
Age 43, NC |
55 NE, I would like to extend to you as well an invitation to join us at http://ironsharpening.19.forumer.com/
just register and send a personal note to Watching the Eastern Sky, and we can continue to discuss this topic at length.
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Re: Re: election
| Posted On: 06/10/07 01:13:32 AM |
Age 43, NC |
You are more than welcome to join me at http://ironsharpening.19.forumer.com/ to continue this discussion. Just register and send a personal note to "Watching the Eastern Sky." I will be happy to continue this conversation there. (We don't bite)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/10/07 01:09:44 AM |
Age 43, NC |
No, not Calvinism, but biblical doctrine. This string is getting narrow and old, if you would like to continue to discuss this you are welcome to join me at: http://ironsharpening.19.forumer.com/
register and send a personal note to "Watching the Eastern Sky". I will be happy to continue this discussion there.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/08/07 09:57:07 AM |
Age 45, TX |
Friend, you need to get in the Word! You have built your theology out of the philosophy of mere men while rejecting the counsel of God against yourself and in doing such created a false god in your own image to justify yourself. Go read Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Rev. 21:8, 27 and repent before it's too late.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/08/07 09:46:13 AM |
Age 45, TX |
Friend you sound intoxicated (drunken) with cyanide-laced 150 proof calvinism. No offense meant. Those who choose to believe are predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image. Romans 8:29 says NOTHING about anyone being predestined (pre-selected, before determined) to salvation. God so loved the whole world and He intends for all to come to salvation and not just a select few (Jn. 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 Jn. 2:2). The Almighty loves all men. Jesus died for all men, not just some men. The Bible says that Christ died “for the sins of the whole world.” (1 Jn. 2:2) Any godless teaching that even hints of the erroneous notion of Christ dying for a certain few is false and should be blatantly exposed as such. When taken synthetically as a whole, Romans 8:29 reveals that the way is predestined and not the person. The LORD has predestined all who would repent and believe upon Christ to be conformed to His holy image while on earth and spend eternity with Him. Repentance and faith in Jesus Christ brings salvation to all who believe upon Him (Jn. 1:12; 3:16; Acts 3:19; 20:21; Rom. 10:9-13). Those who will be with Jesus Christ in eternity are “called, and chosen, and faithful.” (Rev. 17:14) God does the calling and choosing and when men are faithful to His plan they appropriate all of His rich blessings. He calls all men to be saved yet only those who answer His call will be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). Those who will be with Christ in eternity are said to be “called, and chosen, and faithful.” Revelation 17:14 reveals the consistent pattern to be observed throughout God’s Word. God made man with the ability of choice. Throughout Holy Scripture we see the initiating grace of God and the need for the one who will be saved to repent and believe upon the Savior and then to continue to be “faithful” to Him alone who is worthy of all praise. The LORD calls but each person exercises choice in response. In order to be eternally saved men are required to receive Christ as LORD and then be “faithful” to the end, in order to partake of the salvation of the LORD.
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Re: Theology is no Substitute for Scripture Truth
| Posted On: 06/08/07 08:15:12 AM |
Age 43, NC |
The study of God is no substitue for scripture truth??? How can you know truth if you don't know the one who is truth? You have no answers so you toss a personal attack, make a snide anti-intellectual remark about theology and copout.
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Re: Re: election
| Posted On: 06/08/07 08:00:33 AM |
Age 43, NC |
What you are saying is that the elect is determined by man and not God. Prove that election is corporate and not individual. You cannot reasonably prove something of the whole that does not also apply to the individual parts. I am an American, both as an individual as well as part of this nation. I am a Christian both individually and as part of the Body of believers, or of the Body of Christ or of the Bride of Christ. Now, prove your contention that election only applies to the corporate body and not the individual!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/08/07 12:38:14 AM |
Age 58, VA |
I should have been clearer by saying instead, "they have a hard time with the remote possibility that there could possibly be (heaven forbid) sins in their own lives that could send them to hell.
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Theology is no Substitute for Scripture Truth
| Posted On: 06/07/07 09:58:22 PM |
Age 47, ID |
Lots of questions, but answering one or all of them will not substitute Scripture, and especially your lack of any Scripture that asserts your assumed theology. All to many are willing to be led around by the nose by philosophy and sophistry, but I find it quite unconvincing until I have a reason from Scripture to believe it. The obvious fact is, you have no Scripture, just arguments and leading questions designed to arrive at your presuppositions.
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Re: election
| Posted On: 06/07/07 09:50:14 PM |
Age 47, ID |
So why do you recoil from God knowing whom He would elect from before the foundation of the world? **** I don’t, I believe it! God only has one Church, one Bride who is elect before the foundation of the world, not millions of individuals mysteriously elected before the foundation of the world! **** Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" – notice who is “US” in the passage… it refers to BELIEVERS, the Church. Who has God chosen? Believers. How? In Christ (the Gospel). That was and has always been God’s plan. No election from eternity here for a single individual to salvation. **** Revelation 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."- Once again, the passage says NOTHING of election to salvation BEFORE or AT the foundation of the world! It says in English “FROM” the foundation of the world. The Greek does not, and cannot mean “AT” or “BEFORE” and therefore gives no support to the notion that God has chosen or elected anyone by anything other than faith in Christ. **** You can create difficulties that are just not there. There is not one passage that suggests or states that any individual is elected to salvation from eternity, or any other time.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/06/07 11:43:54 PM |
Age 43, NC |
Why do you frustrate grace? What are you able to add to grace? If you are saved by grace through faith, and justified by the finished work of Christ... what works can you in your sin tainted state add to salvation? If we received the Spirit by faith and not by the works of the law, how can we then keep by works that which we gained by faith? Where can you boast about what you did in your own salvation? Nothing! It is all in Jesus Christ, and His love constraineth us to love Him, love the brethren, and do good works. Are you bound to Jesus Christ in love, or are you bound a set of rules you have to follow in order to guarantee you can keep the gift of Salvation Jesus extended? What can we do to merit keeping something we did not merit or earn in the first place?
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Re: Re: No Hope
| Posted On: 06/06/07 11:22:02 PM |
Age 43, NC |
We live in the constraints of time and space. Our sum total of experience and knowledge is limited to the past and the present. God is bound by neither space nor time. Is God Omnipotent? Is there anything too hard for God? How much effort did God exert in forming all of creation? He spoke and it stood fast! Is God Omniscient? What does God not know? His eye is on the sparrow, He numbered the very hairs on your head, He set the boundry of the seas, He knows the thoughts and intents of your heart. What does God not know? Since He is not bound by space nor time He knows the past, the present and the future all the same. Is God omnipresent? God is so other that he transends our existence yet He is so near that we cannot excape from Him no matter where we go. The King David knew this in Psalm 139.
So why do you recoil from God knowing whom He would elect from before the foundation of the world? Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Revelation 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." Again, election is not the same as predestining some to heaven and other to hell... we all were dead in trespass and sin, all on our way to hell, yet God has seen fit to extend mercy to His elect and He did it outside of time and space (before our creation).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/06/07 02:28:28 PM |
Age 19, NV |
I don't know where you come up with, "People who are into OSAS have a hard time with a lot of teaching on Hell." Look at Puritan teachings; "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" isn't exactly a watered-down Gospel message. Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, etc...
Some of the strongest teachings on the holiness of God around (even today) come from Calvinists; check out a missionary/preacher named Paul Washer; a lot of his stuff is on SermonAudio and Granted Ministries.
God created Hell and it's worse than we can ever imagine, but it is where the unregenerate go. Jesus said of converts, "...they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28, NASB) The idea that a saved person can "jump" out of Christ's hand of his own will is absurd and nowhere implied in the text; it's extrapolation and pitiful exegesis. The believer is clasped inside Christ's hands, which are in turn clasped by the Father's hands (v. 29). That's a secure position, and nobody is getting out of there, because "...he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6, ESV) If God begins the work, He WILL finish it.
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:30, ESV)
This is the golden chain. if God predestined to save someone He called them. Now, an Arminian may have a different view of that part of the text, but the latter part is clear: if God justifies someone, He brings them the glory. The number is the same. If there is justification, there will ALWAYS be glorification (Heaven).
Hell should never be the believer's motivation for godliness and obedience. It is the love of Christ which motivates us to love and obey Him out of a grace covenant (1 John 4:19), which is completely different from the works-based, man-centered "maintenance of salvation" doctrine taught by Arminianism.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/05/07 11:44:22 PM |
Age 58, VA |
Threat of Hell? Why would Todd threaten Hell when God has warned us about it. People who are into OSAS have a hard time with a lot of teaching on Hell. They call it scare tactics and threats. What does God call teaching on Hell.
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Re: No Hope
| Posted On: 06/05/07 09:48:38 PM |
Age 47, ID |
• Many are called few are chosen, but those who are chosen were chosen from the foundation of the world. Let God be true and everyman a liar. **** I can see by the language employed that you assume that “from the foundation of the world” implies a done deal “before” the world began. To be absolutely clear, there is not a single passage in the Bible that states that anyone has been chosen “before” the foundation of the world! The Holy Spirit chose a specific word here, and it cannot mean “at” or “before.” If He meant that, He could have laid a specific word at our feet that would be without dispute or contention, but He chose to use a word that can mean “since” the foundation of the world. People are chosen in the present, not some act of fatalistic lottery in the past.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/05/07 09:34:35 PM |
Age 47, ID |
• If, according to such an interpretation, one is able to defeat God and wrest themselves from God's keeping hand then there is no hope for their salvation. **** Laughable retort! I can see how easily you take the irrefutable FACT that Jude exhorts BELIVERS to “keep yourselves in the love of God” and to run to some convoluted theological assumption instead of Scripture for your beliefs! Also, no answer comes to question of the FACT that Paul only lists those things EXTERNAL to the believer themselves! This is dismissed as “interpretation,” yet not a soul alive can find the believer themselves in the original or the context; they can only add it to the passage by pure theological interjection. Somehow, Eternal Security advocates believe that Hebrews 6: 4-6 actually defeats conditional security by raising a supposed “difficulty.” NONSENSE! It takes Scripture proving Eternal Security to be true to establish the doctrine, not the idea that “here is a problem for your doctrine, so Eternal Security must be true!” If Hebrews 6 gives no “wiggle room,” then “let God be true and every man a liar!" I believe it! But such is not the case. It is speaking of apostasy, which only a true believer can do. You emphasize “impossible” without ever looking to see “why” it is impossible. The text tells us why, and the condition of the impossibility. It is only while they (present tense Greek) crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh in their hearts. If they cease to do so, nothing in this passage states an impossibility of repentance. But I doubt if anyone is really interested in the "facts" or whether there really are any passages that actually teach Eternal Security, for it appears to me that they would assume it well enough on their own and insert it as “Bible doctrine” on the shear weight of theological arguments such as “it must be true or we can defeat God.” It is clear to me that if Eternal Security were found by them to not be in the Bible, they would correct it! They would be happy to make Jesus cancel out Jude instead of seeking a resolution instead of assuming an inconsistency in the Holy Spirit’s inspiration.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/05/07 05:50:26 PM |
Age 43, NC |
That is the very crux of the matter. If one preaches the gospel and their doctrine of salvation is anything other than, "by grace through faith," it is a false gospel. Any work added to grace, polutes grace and makes it of none effect. To start off by grace and then to be kept by works is the very thing Paul was on the Galatians about. If one can't earn salvation by work or merit then how can one keep salvation by work or merit?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS YOUR SIN REALLY WORTH GOING TO HELL FOR (Part 3)
| Posted On: 06/05/07 05:38:55 PM |
Age 43, NC |
I believe you replied to the wrong post
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No Hope
| Posted On: 06/05/07 05:35:02 PM |
Age 43, NC |
If, according to such an interpretation, one is able to defeat God and wrest themselves from God's keeping hand then there is no hope for their salvation. The Bible is explicit and without "wiggle" room when it comes to that fact. Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
The Question then becomes, "Is this passage talking about the elect, born again Child of God??? or the many who will say in that day "Lord, Lord Haven't I..."???? Many are called few are chosen, but those who are chosen were chosen from the foundation of the world. Let God be true and everyman a liar.
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