Be Open to the Spirit
| Posted On: 03/20/09 11:49:04 AM |
Age 43, OR |
Apparently, you have never witnessed how a clown minister can touch the heart of a person who is deaf and has never "heard" the Gospel, but can see it in action in this type of ministry. Why are you so judgmental of allowing Christ to be made known? I guess I could also quote a few biblical passages about that as well.
Peace in our Resurrected Lord,
Pastor Al Jensen
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Re: The Church has become a circus...literally
| Posted On: 07/02/08 10:35:39 AM |
Age 53, NC |
In the statement that Paul warned the christian Corinthians to examine themselves before taking Communion, then you stated that some were sick and dying, was this due to them taking Communion that were not in Christ?
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Clown Communion
| Posted On: 06/19/08 05:17:33 PM |
Age 31, IL |
Is that clown wearing a chasuble? It least the organist (or Calliope player) would be able to easily identify the presiding clown.
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The Church Has Become a Circus...Literally
| Posted On: 12/14/07 04:47:09 PM |
Age 47, MN |
Why should mature Christians be surprised by such folly?
Given the fact that 9% of true evangelical Christians maintain and defend a biblical world view (according to Barna poll) that would leave the other 91% in the Sesame Street - VeggieTale mentality, incapable of spiritual and scriptural discernment. That is exactly the demographic to which these "churches" attempt to appeal.
How thoughtful of them to make the trip to Hell a little more enjoyable with a few laughs from Bobo.
Take me to a vomitorium.
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Re: Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 11/28/07 07:28:09 PM |
Age 54, VA |
Friends---
I have waited until the end of the year to respond to your comments. I am Jim Lavender, the United Methodist pastor who used the elephant on April 29th. In fact, I have offered children's sermons for thirty three years using live animals as object lessons, most of the animals adopted from uncertain futures. I taught a grown lion to lay down with a live lamb, among other images that are Biblically authentic. For fifteen years, I provided Christian missions to other churches of every denomination nationally using animals to teach Christian truth to unchurched and irreligious children and their parents. To date, just over one and one half million children have come to Christ and His church through this sacrificial and volunteer ministry. Most every Sunday, each of our three services features a two minute message for kids using animals. I humbly offer to you that on April 29, 2007, twelve new families committed to Christ and to our church, one marriage was saved, and one person chose not to take their own life as a result of our special 25th anniversary outdoor service. We felt pretty good about the day since 2,200 people came. We humbly apologize to anyone who does not understand or who might be offended. Our church has always sought to reach those who Jesus sought...the irreligious, the lost, the hurting. We find that more important than the trappings of tradition. With deepest respect for everyone Jesus died for and also for all living things, I shall keep all of you in my prayers during the new year.
Dr. Jim Lavender
Senior and Founding Pastor
Discovery United Methodist Church
and former professional entertainer.
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Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/21/07 02:25:09 PM |
Age 43, AL |
Unfortunately it appears that from both the article and from the feedback that there are two camps of thought.
1)anything and everything is available as avenue for the Gospel and
2)only the methods that have been employed in the past are exceptable ways of communicating the truths of God's word.
I believe what we need is balance.
I feel that even though we are called to judge the fruit of men, we are not called to judge their hearts. We DO need to be all things to all people so that all me may be saved. Our churches are simply brick and mortar. The Holy Spirit lives in our heart. I do not have a problem with having a circus in "church" to reach, teach, disciple. Our church has used every part of our building, including the sanctuary,to have Halloween alternatives and Easter dramas that have even included live tigers to depict the Roman games. God has directed our fellowship to be bold and to draw our society that is overstimulated.
But there are some things that need to have some reverential limits. God is holy and should be feared and I do feel that celebrating communion in a clown suit lessens the importance and reverence just as doing the same thing while officiating a Christian wedding would, in my opinion, lessen the importance of the event.
Again, we are back to balance. And heart.
What was this pastor called by God to do? Was he obedient? Did he do more than what God called him to do? Did he do less? Only God knows.
Just like Ezekiel.
I hope he never calls me to prophesy naked or to eat dung!
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Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/15/07 08:02:52 PM |
Age 67, CA |
This is almost the most ludicrous exibition I have ever seen in the name of worshipping the Lord! The most ludicrous was when I was a young woman back in New England and a "church" rented a movie theatre for their services and a young woman was "stripping for the Lord". People buy into this garbage! Those pastors need to remember that they will be judged more harshly than the rest because they are teachers and shepards who are leading their flocks astray. Whatever happened to the good old fashioned "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand."?
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Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/15/07 06:27:35 AM |
Age 54, ENGLAND |
I'm speechless! Where will it all end? Surely this is not "doing things decently and in order". Who ever said the church should be attractive to the world? I can only find scripture that says the opposite. I have just been reading Peter, James and John, they would have been horrified.
People who join the church through such stunts are in danger of trying to enter the Kingdom with fake tickets. God holds those who do not proclaim His warnings truthfully responsible and their end is awful.
I pray these men will repent while they still can.
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Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/14/07 12:45:00 PM |
Age 51, VA |
I thought your readers would like to know that Rev. Lavender hired "Minnie" the Elephant from Commerford & Sons out of Goshen, CT. Commerford has NUMEROUS VIOLATIONS against the Animal Welfare Act(AWA). These include, abuse, neglect, dangerous (unsupervised) animals to name a few. Simply Google Commerford Goshen, CT or Wildpimps.com and access their factsheet.
Rev. Lavendar also houses exotic, captive animals on his personaly propert in Goochland County, VA. He has been cited for violations as well.
Not a very good example of loving all creatures great and small!
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Re: Re: Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/12/07 09:38:25 AM |
Age 76, AL |
You are exactly right. Lead us back to the truth. People need to hear the truth, not some easy believism; a feel good religion; if it feels good, it isn't conviction. We need preachers who preach the infallible, inerrant word of God, not try to intertain us, we are intertained by television, though I haven't been recently. There is nothing but filth on the tv. But in church we need to say as God said to Moses, "Take off your shoes you are standing on holy groung." If it is holy, we need to treat it as holy, not make a mockery of it. If God is there it IS holy, so act accordingly. Would you stand in front of a holy God and act or dress like a clown? I think not. The Bible says we will not be able to stand in the presence of a holy God. He is so awesome and so magnificent we will be knocked off our feet. I am waiting for that day when we will be on our faces before Him.
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Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/12/07 02:40:52 AM |
Age 37, KY |
These people are simply marketing their church. Paul did it in many ways, with teaching, by becoming as his opponents, or "with guile".
And why would anyone here quote Ecclesiastes ? Are you aware of what it says ?
Ecc 9.2 "All things come alike to all: to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrifices and to him that sacrifices not: as is the good, so is the sinner; he that sweareth, as he that fears an oath."
To the clowns and to the serious ?
9.4 "To him that is joined to all the living there is hope. A living dog is better than a dead lion.
9.5 The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing nor have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten."
Do any of you who quote from Ecclesiastes really read this stuff ?
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Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/12/07 01:46:05 AM |
Age 52, CA |
Administering holy communion in a clown costume might be a little much but perhaps taking communion every week is as well. Jesus said" do this in remembrance of me" Not to say that rememembering him is bad but there are many other ways to remember Him as well. How about washing feet or giving a drink or maybe even your coat. I guess I'm only saying that perhaps by having the holy eucharist available every Sunday, maybe even twice,might take away from the sanctity of it and make it into something almost mundane or done by rote.
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Re: Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/12/07 01:10:00 AM |
Age 61, OH |
Solomon was offered a gift from God. He chose wisdom, and it was granted. It may be deduced, then, that when Solomon penned his writings in the Old Testament, what he wrote was truly God-inspired wisdom. Let's see what he says about clowns in church:
Ecclesiastes 5:1 Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil.
2. Do not be rash with your mouth, and let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven and you on earth; therefore let your words be few.
3. For a dream comes through much activity, and a fool's voice is known by his many words. (Although not as wise as Solomon, I would venture to add, "...words and [foolish] deeds.
Just my opinion...and Solomon's.
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Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/11/07 05:26:16 PM |
Age 29, GA |
God, forgive us, all of us for turning away from You. Forgive us for not hungry for You, not thirsty for the true Fountain of Life, the River of Life. We turned away from the everlast Fountain, and carved up for us a fountain that cannot satisfy. We turned to ourselves, we turned to each other, and all we found was emptyness and vanity. Only You, oh Lord can satisfy us. Forgive us and lead us back to You, to the living fountain. Revive us O Lord, let us see how far away we are from You. Let us know that how blind we are, that we may come and ask for sight. Draw us to You, O Lord. Make us come, for You are our only hope! In Jesus' Name, Amen.
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Re: Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/11/07 05:00:22 PM |
Age 29, GA |
There are several things I like to address. First of all, the prophet you mentioned was Ezekiel not Nehemiah. Doing weird and strange things is not the main point of the objection. The main point of objection should be, “Are we doing this because God told us to do so?” You are exactly right that God told Ezekiel to do strange things, the reason was so that he can illustrate his prophecies to the people of Israel. Things we do in the Church should be commanded by God, first of all. Secondly, they should agree with the Scripture. And not just one verse, but the Scripture as a whole. People can quote (or misquote) one verse of the Bible and support anything they want. Things we do in the Church should always draw people to God. Not to an organization, not to an event, not to a show, no, but to Christ Jesus Himself. We should check and look at the fruits of those ministries, see where do they lead us to. To repentance? To a heart longing for God? To the love of Scriptures? To the love of fellow human beings? To a revival? God have mercy on us, lead us back to the Truth, lead us to repentance, to the Cross of Christ and to Himself and Himself alone.
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Re: Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/11/07 03:48:29 PM |
Age 46, MO |
Friend: Being all things to all people doesn't mean that we compromise ourselves to reach the lost. It means that we humble ourselves so that we are approachable to the lost. Let's face it, if I am a biker and I act, talk, look, and smell like a biker, chances are that I won't have any success talking to a mother of four if my attitude is that of a "Hell's Angel." However, I can look, smell, and act like a biker and still be approachable if my attitude were one of grace and servitude in the presence of same mother of four. The difference? Self vs Servitude, Self vs Grace, Self vs Born Again. Friend, these pastors are full of self, love the lime light, and are spiritually shallow. Indeed they are dead men leading dead men. How can I say such a thing? God is holy and His true church is Holy and made for worship and service to LORD and KING, not service to self and desires. Hope this helps.
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Re: Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/11/07 03:33:31 PM |
Age 46, MO |
Friend: You asked several questions: "Why is everyone so upset ? Where do these "clowns" get their authority ? Where do YOU get your authority? Why are there 30,000 Christian groups that differ from one another but they all were given authority ? I think everybody needs to put their stones down and maybe pray a little deeper." I think your questions stem from a misrepresentation of God and His HOLY Spirit. We agree that all authority comes from God because He is sovergn, but I think we disagree what this means. Being Sovergn doesn't necessarily mean exercised control. The rules of our nation are still sovergn inside my car but I am free to run any stop light I please. Just because I don't get caught every time or at the first infraction doesn't diminish the authority of the law. Same with Christ, he is long suffering but He WILL JUDGE! Therefore, not all churches operate under the authority of Christ just because they have a "Christian Facade." Finally, having a sovergn God doesn't mean that all Christians have to do is pray and magically everything is wonderful. True, Jesus said WE can move mountains and do greater miracles than He because of the Holy Spirit in us, but this does not mean that all we do is pray. If that were true, then the apostles could have stayed in the upper room. I hope these answers to your questions help.
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Re: Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/11/07 07:20:18 AM |
Age 41, NM |
Just one quick point. You asked if maybe the early church met daily in public places so that unbelievers could come? The answer is absolutely not. See Acts 5:12-16. You'll read that the believers met regularly at a place called "Solomon's Colonnade." Verse 13 declares that "NO ONE ELSE DARED TO JOIN THEM, EVEN THOUGH THEY HELD BELIEVERS IN HIGH REGARD." Why? Because they were filled with fear! Annanias and Saphira had just been killed for lying to the Holy Spirit. The gathering of believers was truly a Holy Moment and no one played with it.
I hear people all the time (especially pentecostals, of which I am one) say that we need to get back to the New Testament church. And yet we want to play games with God instead of fear God. Is it any wonder we don't often see signs and wonders? God can't show up because He won't be identified with such things. The true gospel is not preached, thus no one gets saved. Instead we have a large number of people gathering for fun, and we call it church.
What's the difference between a dead church with 20 members and a dead church with 5,000 members? Only that 5,000 dead bodies gives off a greater stench!
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Re: Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/11/07 07:04:50 AM |
Age 41, NM |
I agree that this clown communion act is a travesty, but to compare it to having a slice of ham for a family holiday trivializes the point. The dietary laws are NOT in effect, unless you deny the words of Christ himself. In Mark 7:15, Jesus stated that nothing outside a man can make a man unclean by going into him, for it does not go into his heart, but to his stomach and then out of the body (V19). At the end of verse 19 we see Mark's Holy Spirit inspired commentary on what Jesus meant: "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean'). The KJV says: "purging the meats", which means the same thing.
How did we go from the disgrace of clown communion services to eating certain meats, to celebrating the resurrection of our Lord on a day the world calls Easter? I don't get it, why can't we stick to the point of the article?
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Re: The Church Has Become a Circus... Literally.
| Posted On: 05/11/07 04:43:41 AM |
Age 39, MS |
But we are talking about communion/last supper.....Christ meant it in a serious way. Eccleciastes states there is a time for everything. Christianity is not taken seriously by lots of people. This only adds to the disbelief. Signs and wonders are to follow us! NOT CLOWNS!!!
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