Re: Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 07/08/07 03:02:20 AM |
Age 53, IA |
There was no tithe on wages, only on livestock and produce. Please read your Bible more carefully.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 07/08/07 02:56:31 AM |
Age 53, IA |
Giving to the church is certainly not the same thing as giving to God because Scripture essentially equates giving to the poor to be giving to God: "Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD and He will repay him for his deed." (Prov. 19:17)
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Re: Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 07/04/07 09:15:54 PM |
Age 53, IA |
Scripture only records that Abraham tithed the one time.
There is no command given here; it was voluntary.
None of it was was from Abraham's possessions.
It was from Lot's and Sodom's recovered booty.
Abraham kept nothing for himself.
As one wise man pointed out, if we are to follow Abraham's example, we would have to wait til our neighbor's house was robbed, go after the thief, and tithe of our neighbor's recovered goods.
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Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 07/04/07 09:01:43 PM |
Age 53, IA |
The author forgets what the tithe was for: the Levite, the widow, the poor, and the stranger among us.
Another writer got it right - the 10% is a starting point.
The tithe also only applied to those who made their living from the land.
The poor were not required to tithe, but rather received a part of the tithe.
Is the flat tax a fair tax?
I would submit to you it is not. Consider the widow's gift. Jesus said she gave more than they all because it was what she had to live on. I find it rather appalling that most preachers hold this up as an example of how to give without expecting others to impoverish themselves to the same level as the widow, but expect the poor to become even poorer by taxing them at the same rate as the wealthy.
Our government is based on Biblical principles. In the 1960s and 1970s, homelessness was increasing. There was no safety net, and the churches were either unable or unwilling to help them.
It seems to me that God made sure the Biblical pattern continued to be followed with the institution of our current tax law.
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Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/26/07 11:52:38 AM |
Age 26, IN |
The conclusions would be good if the premise was correct. However, Socratic logic does not allow for argumentation from the conclusion. So let's look at the premise. Mr. Howse argues that there should be a flat-tax because it benefits those like him (well-to-do white males). He says that God only asks for 10% to bolster this position (arguing from the conclusion). Instead of looking for ways to bolster the opinion, however, Mr. Howse should be looking at Scripture to form his conclusion. A thorough look at Scripture would show us that God's requirement of 10% is not a LIMIT, but rather, a STARTING POINT. In fact, the apostle Paul tells men that they ought to purpose in their heart what they will give..."each according to what they have." Well let's do some math. How much is 10% of 100,000? It's 10,000, leaving the person with a 90,000 salary. Great for that person who makes six figures. How much is 10% of 15,000? It's 1500, leaving the person with 13,500. Wow, big difference, huh? Apply the logic with a flat tax and put it in context. A family of four will live very comfortably with 90,000 in their pocket (Or even 50,000 after governmental taxes), but a single mother trying to make ends meet on a salary under 10,000 (after tithing and a flat-rate tax) would not survive. Mr. Howse would like you to feel sorry for the businesses and how those poor rich people would be able to afford less raw material and product. Good rhetoric, because it fools the masses, who never hear the other side of the story. In a flat-tax system, what happens at one end affects the other end. If the tax benefits the rich, you can bet it hurts the poor. Personally, I wouldn't mind a few rich people having less, if it benefits the poor. It's interesting how much Scripture gets thrown about to the exclusion of other passages like those in Nahum and James where the point is hammered home that it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the rich to take care of the poor. NOT AN OPTION. I don't see a lot of that going on, even in the church. For the record, I think that the command from Paul to give according to what you have means those who have more are supposed to give a higher percentage.
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Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/26/07 11:38:31 AM |
Age 26, IN |
The U.S. was NOT set up as a NO-TAX NATION. The Constitution allows for taxation. The founders were not against taxation at all, what the were against was taxation on anything and everything "without representation." That's all. You may have heard their motto..."No taxation without representation." Also, it would help to note in this discussion that the U.S. is NOT a democracy. That's a misnomer. In a democracy each person's individual voice is heard. Easy enough, but to do that you have to limit the number of people talking. Like maybe only white male landowners. Instead, the U.S. is a Representative Republic, where people vote on someone to represent them in an office that deals with issues like taxation. The idea is that those representatives will take the wishes of their constituents to the voting booth.
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Re: Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 10:55:03 AM |
Age 40, CA |
Yes, our tax code is unbiblical. So what does Mr. Howse think we should do? Do we continue to talk, or is there some sort of biblical action that should be taken? I'm eager for a response.
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Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 09:52:44 AM |
Age 47, TN |
If you're truly interested in reclaiming our constitutional rights in this regard, you may find useful information at www.losthorizons.com
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Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 09:05:30 AM |
Age 63, OH |
Brother you make a very good point. We are the ones who should help the poor not the government. But when a family is paying out over 50 percent of what they make to the government it is hard to give to the poor. I would also like to add that Abraham tithed under a higher law as Paul says. Tithing under the law is better than not giving to God at all. But it falls far short of the higher law of love which Abraham gave under. Abraham gave directly to God Himself not to a church, and he gave out of love not duty. How does anyone know how much Christians tithe. First of all, who are the real Christians. I used to tithe by check to my church until a friend came to me and said he was amazed by the amount I gave. I was shocked and asked him how did he know. He confessed that the book was left out and he seen I was one of the top givers in the church. I was angry about this leaving the book out and prayed about it. The Lord told me to be obedient and not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing. I started giving in cash instead, and being very careful to see that no one seen my giving and made it in several amounts so that it would not be noticed. I was amazed at the results and also made sad. The leaders of the church started treating me very different and I have been on their black list ever since. I left that church for other reasons, for their following men and not God. But no one knows what I give to God except Him, for I do not know myself what I give for I do not keep track. Lou
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Re: Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 08:33:46 AM |
Age 63, OH |
I have observed church goers use the fact that they tithe as an excuse not to help the poor. If we give our money to the Lord Himself for Him to tell us what to do with it, who knows better than God who we should give our money to. Also giving a tithe does not take care of our obligation to the Lord, for a Christian should give everything that he has to the Lord, not just 10 percent of his money. Lou
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Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 08:30:14 AM |
Age 50, WI |
I agree, from what I have been told plus a video which was presented to me on this topic, explained that the "income tax" that we are told we must pay is unconstitutional. Evangilist "Mr. Dino," is in jail for not paying taxes and nobody is talking about it. This man may be a bit rough around the edges in how he talks but he loves the Lord and gave up his comfort zone to preach the Word and educate people on the subject of Creation vs Evolution. I am not saying we shouldn't pay taxes at all, but it shouldn't be as it is today.
God Bless!
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Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 01:39:27 AM |
Age 54, OK |
Interesting considerations. Certainly there is value for the society who follows the Creator's plan. But what is more interesting is how often believers try to impose biblical matters upon America as though it is something other than it actually is: a gentile nation. And when the times of the gentiles is fulfilled America shall fall along with all the others.
There are only two kinds of nations: Israel and the gentile nations. There is no nation like Israel. It is the only theocracy. And if our eschatology is wrong our expectations for America will err. Prayer, humitlity and repentence is good, but the Church was never promised a land that might be healed (II Chron 7:14).
As for tithing, Israel was obligated to at least two tithes, and there is discussion about a third tithe every three years. That makes 23.33%. And then there were offerrings. There is no magic in 10%, and it is not even commanded of the Church.
Confusing that which belongs to Israel with that which belongs to the Church is one of the most serious errors believers make today, right up there with failing to properly understand the sovereignty of God.
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Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 10:11:18 PM |
Age 52, IN |
The article did not clearly answer the question: "True or False: The most Biblically based tax system would be one built on a flat tax where everyone pays the same percentage of their income in taxes."
Rather than debate whether the current progressive income tax code is Biblical, why not ask whether any type of income tax is Biblical? If the IRS can take a portion of your earnings, has it not taken the time you worked to earn it and made you a part-time slave? Assuming the answer cannot be anything but yes, then collection of any income tax is a violation of the 13th Amendment prohibition of involuntary servitude.
Today's income tax is essentially a lite version of pre-1865, inter-generational slavery, with the primary difference being it is now imposed only upon everyone who is a producer.
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Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 09:59:26 PM |
Age 48, CA |
Exactly right: Christians are not under the O.T. mandate to tithe. Abraham gave 10% to the King of Salem out of his own initiative, and there is no record in Scripture of anyone giving 10% until the Mosaic Law. And as stated, the tithe was used to support the Levital priesthood, and (1)was based on all "income," monetary and otherwise, and (2)was actually more than 10% due to the other mandatory tithings found in the Law. The Bible says that the Lord loves a joyful giver, not someone who feels compelled to give a certain percentage (and then often feels that he has "done his duty").
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Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 03:31:35 PM |
Age 63, OH |
Not only are income taxes unconstitutional but property taxes are unconstitutional. How can the government tax something that is mine. There is no such thing as private property in this nation for we only rent from the government. If you do not pay your property tax you will find out who owns it. There is judgment coming on this nation for all the homes that have been stolen from poor widows by the government. And the church watched and did nothing. Read the scriptures and see what God thinks of this action. James says that this is pure religion, that we take care of widows and orphans. Christians gave up this God given right of their land without much resistance. And now with school shootings I hear more Christians wanting to put their trust in men instead of God by giving up more God given rights. Lou
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 01:47:44 PM |
Age 46, SC |
"...failing that, it would definitely be better to have a flat tax in which everyone is taxed the same percentage of their wages."
Your Honor, I'm definitely not guilty. I did NOT do the crime, so my death sentence should be set aside. Failing that, however, it would definitely be better to get it over with quick, so I choose hanging.
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Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 12:46:25 PM |
Age 39, MI |
I agree with the article I am not here to argue for or against our tax code being biblical. Lets be honest do we as Christians actually expect it to be? But lets take the real hard look at who we are first before we point the finger elsewhere. I understand that most Christians only tithe 1-2% of their income. If each of us really took God at His word wouldn't we tithe 10%. We as the disciples of Christ are to do what He commands us without a complaint. Here is the real question. We know God is in control, do we as Christians actually have a right to complain? I believe if we tithed as we are commanded to then the church would have more than enough money to help those in need and the government might just lower taxes, because those who used to go to the governement for help have found the real help the church.
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Re: Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 10:22:11 AM |
Age 46, SC |
"What are we supposed to do about it?"
First, we should find every legal means to avoid paying a tax that is both unbiblical and unconstitutional. That is good stewardship.
"It seems the flat tax would at least take us closer to what you'd want, wouldn't it?"
No, what I want is what's Biblical and what's Constitutional. If you understand my post, then you understand that the income tax goes to pay for nothing like we have been conditioned to believe it does (and even THAT would be unbiblical, the orinal article's references to Romans 13 notwithstanding). As a direct tax, which even a flat tax would be, the Constitutional requirement is that it be apportioned equally amongst the states, which a flat tax or a value-added tax or national sales tax in no way can be. But none of that matters, anyway, when we realize that none of this goes to pay for government services, anyway, but only to pay an illegal and unbiblical usury to private foreign banks.
The Bible does not tell us to pay taxes; it tells us to honor our agreements - our contracts (which would encompass paying Caesar our agreed-upon rate for use of his private money). If you want to be free from the tribute tax, don't use Caesar's money.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 02:57:43 AM |
Age 38, TN |
Bravo! I'm glad to see that there are others out there who realize that the federal income tax is not constitutional. I wish there was some way it could be done away with entirely, but failing that, it would definitely be better to have a flat tax in which everyone is taxed the same percentage of their wages.
My family is lower middle class, so I'm by no means trying to get a tax cut for myself by promoting this philosophy. I totally agree with some of the previous posters who described how taking a greater percentage of taxes from the wealthier only hurts those of us who are lower on the wage totem pole.
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Re: Is Our Tax Code Biblical?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 01:08:26 AM |
Age 62, FL |
I agree with the principlas of the article - they are correct - however they ALL refer to dictatorships and Monarchies (Empires).
America was established by our Founders as a NO-TAX NATION. They had just escaped from Europe for this reaosn and for the freedom of Religion.
Our Constituion forbids ANY income or direct taxes on the people ! Also land/property taxes are UN-Constitutional ! And the land was to be only owned by American citizens, NOT government or Foreigners !
And we pay more DAILY taxes than you realize because EVERYTHING IN THIS NATION IS A TAX NOW that we need just to get from one day to the next: licenses, permits, registrations, sales taxes, etc - those are ALL Constitutionally forbidden direct taxes on the people !
THE roads and highways belong Constitutionally TO THE American PEOPLE, yet we have toll roads and bridges and need a "license" in order to drive on road that WE OWN ! WE are told that use of the roads is a "privledge" as if the government owns them - but that is NOT what our Founders set up here ! Driving is NOT a "privledge" it is a RIGHT ! IT should NEED NO LICENSE,REGISTRATION, permit, etc. to drive, own & carry a gun, or own a vehicle or build or repair our homes ! Those are all TAXES ! So is the speeding ticket you get ! That is a tax also. We are faced with taxes with every breath we take !
WE are NOT in a "free" country as we have been brainwashed into believing !
Services should NOT be taxed ! IT should only be between the employer and employee - Government has no business poking its nose into every trasaction , phone bill, cable bill, anything we purchase or do, or anything !
Government was origianlly designed to PROTECT OUR RIGHTS, not take them away and then rent them to us as their "Privleges" !
That is fraud ! That is what dictators do to their people, not a 'free' nation !
To BE a governmnet of, by, for the PEOPLE - the People are not made into slaves who are in FEAR of the government, as we have it here in this nation ! The People would NOT be taxing themselves into the poor house if this were a real government of the PEOPLE ! They would not be havigng coronaries over a day of the year (Ap 15th) because the "government" is ready to send out their ax-men to seize your head because they demand money from you - just like the mob boss does !
The Federal Reserve is not Constitutional either and is not even American ! Those are Foriegn bankers and big business men !In fact the entire Federal Corporate US "government " is nothing more than a Foreign entity Corporation and NOT a real 'government' at all ! It hasn't been OFFICIALLY more than a Corporation since 1913 when the "Leaders" stole all the money from the American people and replaced it with worthless paper Federal Reserve notes that are not worth the paper they are printed on !
ALL UN-CONTITUTIONAL !!! Every bit of it along with all the taxes !
All part of the One World Governmnent Plan !
And we are in it !
The only taxes Constitutionally allowed are excise and import taxes !
Adn even in teh Corporation laws that this Corportaion wrote up for their "new government" in 1913 - THEY even have taxes only allowed on Corporations - NOT PEOPLE !
But no one today seems to be smart or brave enough (there's that FEAR factor again) to hold it up to them !
THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO PAY TAXES OF ANY KIND ! THIS CORPORATION DOES EVERYTHING BY CONTRACT - AND EVERYTHING YOU SIGN - LIKE REGISTRATIONS, DEEDS, MORTGAGES, LICNESES, ETC. ARE ALL CONTRACTS !
There are only "Policies" and "Requiremens" but NONE OF THEM ARE "LAW" !
And even when the legislatures make a 'law' - it is NOT LEGAL NOR HAS TO BE OBEYED BY THE PEOPLE UNLESS IT IN AGREEMENT WITH THE CONSTITUTION WHICH IS THE LAW OF THE LAND !
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