Re: Re: Re: TROUBLEMAKERS
| Posted On: 05/01/07 04:52:49 PM |
Age 40, MN |
Lou, these are some very profound thoughts and I agree with you. Thanks
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Re: Re: TROUBLEMAKERS
| Posted On: 04/26/07 12:50:21 AM |
Age 63, OH |
We agree on something that neither of us deserve the title of troublemakers but it is something that we can both aspire to. Don't you think that no one is going to be saved because of correct doctrine or kept out because of incorrect doctrine. I think God judges all as He says by the intentions of their heart. Here is hoping that the mercy and grace of The Lord Jesus Christ who is the Creator of us all can move both of our hearts to love Him with all of our hearts and both be saved by His divine mercy. Lou
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Re: SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/26/07 12:41:09 AM |
Age 63, OH |
You have misunderstood me. I do not think that the Bible condones slavery and I have been reading it for 35 years. The more I seek God and get to know Him the more I understand His viewpoint. I or you can not stop a small tornado let alone create the universe so it is not difficult for me to be humble before God. I think for any man to presume that he knows better than God is the ultimate of fools. God can not do anything; He can not lie. He can not be unjust. It was not the 3 days in the grave but the death on the cross that was the difficult thing for a God who never sinned. To have this done to Him by His children was the hard part. Lou
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SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/24/07 01:10:11 PM |
Age 37, NY |
So you agree that slavery is justified in the Bible or at least contradictory in its guidelines? 1. In the Bible there are many other inconsistencies on what God believes is sin and what he thinks just. Like I said before, some of things he thinks are not sins, you and I would consider immoral. 2. If God is all knowing and all-powerful. There is nothing he CANT do. So he could just wink his eye and do what ever he wants. There are no reasons given in the Bible to make us think that he wouldnt arbitrarily change his will at any time for whatever reason. 3. If death is the ultimate price for sin, why is Jesus still alive? Three days in the grave compared to eternity is hardly a price to pay. Id rather be dead for three days and then live forever in heaven than spend life or even a year in prison. Wouldnt you?
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Re: SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/23/07 05:12:41 PM |
Age 63, OH |
Justice and mercy are foundation stones that the city of God are
built on. I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is MERCIFUL and JUST
and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
We can see that God is MERCIFUL and JUST. If God was not merciful He
would not have died for us. If God was not JUST He WOULD NOT HAVE HAD
TO DIE FOR US. God is so just that sin could not be forgiven without
the penalty, which was death, being paid. Many people today seem to
think that God can just wink and forgive our sin. God could never do
this because He is JUST. God is so just that His justice required that
the penalty for our every sin to be paid for in full. No one could pay
for this sin. So we were all doomed to death and hell. God loved us
and wanted to save us. But His justice demanded that the penalty of
death for our every sin be paid in full. So the only way we could be
saved was for God to come down and pay the penalty of death to the
executioner. God was the only one that was just and had not sinned. If
God had not been just He would have been unable to pay the penalty of
death for us. But God had remained just throughout all eternity. So He
was able to pay the bill. And the fact that He was just meant that
someone had to pay the penalty of death. So the only answer was for
God to come down and pay our penalty for our sin. That penalty was
paid by God when He hung on the cross for He was JUST.---- I have another article that tells why the penalty of death was necessary. It is too long to put on this site. If you are interested I can send it to you if you request it. lounewton13472yahoo.com
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Re: TROUBLEMAKERS
| Posted On: 04/23/07 11:56:54 AM |
Age 40, MN |
I was actually referring to myself as 'the troublemaker' because I seem to be so out of step with so many on this website, but will now rescind that label, since you have and I believe correctly so, pointed out that it can be a good attribute - one I am probably not worthy of.
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SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/22/07 08:10:42 PM |
Age 37, NY |
No matter what the method or reasons, God deemed it necessary for Jesus to be killed. I think its kind of sickand this is the whole foundation for Christianityhuman sacrifice for our sins. The Old Testament is full instructions for slavery and human sacrifice. Jesus may have said do unto others but then he is contradicted by Paul in Ephesians 6: 5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christand 1 Timothy 6:1-4 1All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. 2Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved Teach and preach these principles. 3If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicionsAll this is understandable because at the time the Christian religion was created, slavery was the norm. The authors reflect this in their writing. Fortunately we have come to understand that it is wrong but not because of what the Bible says.
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TROUBLEMAKERS
| Posted On: 04/21/07 01:06:37 AM |
Age 63, OH |
First of all I did not judge the puritans. But said that I did not think that their actions were the type of actions that I would choose as I would the pilgrims. But I did certainly did not judge their heart. ------------------------
He that begins by loving Christianity better than truth will proceed by
loving his own sect or church better than Christianity, and end in
loving himself better than all.
... Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1824)
here are words that I see as very wise that I read today.---- By the way here is a list of troublemakers--- Joseph,Moses,Gideon,David,Elijah,Daniel, Shadrach,Meshach,Abednego,Daniel,Isiah,
Jerimiah,Ezekial,The 12 disciples,Paul,Stephen,and most of all Jesus.
Thank you so much for the kind remark, I did
not think myself worthy of the remark but I am honored. Lou
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JESUS TAUGHT AGAINST SLAVERY
| Posted On: 04/21/07 12:48:56 AM |
Age 63, OH |
You say Jesus does not refute slavery. How else would you take do unto others as you would have them do unto you. To sacrifice another human has always been forbidden by God.God did not sacrifice another person for sin. but God became a man and came down to earth at a time when the religious men were so sinful that God knew they would kill Him. He did not sacrifice Himself but offered Himself to man knowing what they would do. I have been on a search for the truth for almost forty years and find truth and beauty two things worth looking for. Lou
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 10:50:21 AM |
Age 40, MN |
Your disagreement is with Dr. Logan who I was quoting:/
Dr. James C. Logan taught for many years at Wesley Theological Seminary. He is a highly respected professor of theology and evangelism. His latest book, How Great A Flame: Contemporary Lessons from the Wesleyan Revival, published by Discipleship Resources, is a collection of his 2003 Denman Lectures sponsored by the Foundation for Evangelism. He regularly writes for Christian History and Christianity Today magazine. / I suppose being somewhat of a troublemaker maybe you think his words would make it seem he wasn't Christian, since you did in fact judge the puritans based ont their actions.
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Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/19/07 02:39:50 AM |
Age 37, NY |
Oh no, Im not judging what Christians like Coach Dave say or do. My point is that the Bible is inconsistent and vague about morals and sometimes down right immoral by todays standards to be claimed as any kind of universal standard. Among other things, the Bible clearly condones slavery and Jesus said and did nothing to refute that. To put it as simple as possible, our understanding that it is wrong doesnt come from the Bible. It is true that there are huge discrepancies in what Christians think make morality. This is even more evidence that the Bible is a faulty moral document. If it were the word of God, why would he have allowed such confusion and room for interpretation? As for the Aztecs, and those in Abrahams day, human sacrifice was not considered murder. Thankfully, today we think that it is. Again, this doesnt come from the Bible (even in the New Testament, Jesus had to be sacrificed). The Christians, Muslims, and Aztecs all had wrong. Fortunately, the Aztec way of life as passed into history, but unfortunately, the others gruesomely persist.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 02:43:05 PM |
Age 63, OH |
I would take issue with your statement " because they took as their authority scripture alone." Here is a quote from Martin Luther himself:
It is for Christ's sake that we believe in the Scriptures, but it is
not for the Scriptures' sake that we believe in Christ.
... Martin Luther (1483-1546)
They took as their authority CHRIST ALONE by Martins own words. They did not believe in Christ because they scriptures said so; but they believed the scriptures because Christ said so. One way is the way of life and the other is the way of death. Jesus said the letter of the law brings death but the Spirit of the law brings life. To look to the Book is Idolatry. For it is part of the creation. We are told in the book to look to the Author of the Book for He is the Creator of all. The pharisees made this mistake and that is why they did not recognize the God they claimed to worship when He came to them. They had created an Idol in their mind what they thought God was like by their understanding of the scriptures. Jesus corrected them when He said " you look to the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life when the scriptures point to me." The Bible is just words on a page if we read them on our own. But if we turn to God and the Holy Spirit speaks the words to us then they are the Word of God. The Devil spoke the words of God but the same words were the Word of God when God spoke them. When God said let there be light, there was light. When the Devil or man speaks the same words nothing happens. Try this sometime. Walk into a dark room and say let there be light. I have never tried it because there is no doubt in my mind what would happen. But one time I seen a tornado heading right for my fathers house as I was standing on the porch. I seen the neighbors barn explode to nothing and it was 100 yards from me. The Holy Spirit said rebuke the storm. The hair on my neck and arms are standing on end right now thinking about it. My mind thought that is crazy and I cried to Jesus please save us. Then my lips just seemed to speak on their own. I shouted at the top of my lungs and rebuked the tornado. I watched it make a 90 degree turn and take out the barn across the street and then go the the next barn across the street. It then made a 90 degree turn back to our side of the street and went on its way. Over a hundred people were killed by that tornado but we walked around the property and could not find so much as a broken branch. We looked and there was a long stem yellow rose in the middle of the yard It was not missing one petal and my dad did not have any yellow roses on his property. As we looked at it we all just started to weep. If I would have read some scripture of my own accord I believe that I would have died and my fathers house would have been destroyed. That is the difference between the Bible and The Word of God. Lou
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 01:56:09 PM |
Age 63, OH |
You have misquoted me. I did not say that the puritans were non Christian. I said that the actions of many of them lead me to doubt the fact that they were Christians. I stand behind this remark. There is a difference between doubting and judging. I was not ready to condemn any of the puritans but simply thought some of there actions were not lead of the Holy Spirit. The witch trials would be one example. the trouble with the indians came when the puritans came over; the pilgrims got along with them. I stand by what I said; many churches that I have been to remind me of the Puritans. They claimed to be separate from the world but were not much different in reality. I am looking for a church like the pilgrims. One that professes to be weak and poor. I would love to be part of a fellowship like that and would drive many miles to be part. The only two churches that Jesus said "I have nothing against you" to ; were the church that thought it was weak and the church that thought that it was poor. I am poor and I am weak so I would fit right in. Lou
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Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/18/07 01:38:34 PM |
Age 63, OH |
You have made some observations and it is understandable that you have come to some of the conclusions that you have. 1st - Are all people what they claim to be. Someone once asked "do you know how you can tell if someone is lying"- answer "if there lips are moving". if someone claims to be a car and sleeps in the garage that does not make him a car. Jesus said the way to life is narrow and few will find it. So there are many who claim to be Christians but there are few that are. Do not judge Jesus by what people who claim to be Christians do, but by what he said and did. 2 - You say all cultures knew it was wrong to murder. The Aztecs murdered so many that the Spaniards seen mountains of human hearts when they came over. The Muslims think it is even good to murder anyone who thinks different than their group. Jesus said love your enemies. True Christians do not think it is OK to murder just because someone thinks different. 3 - You say what makes murder wrong. - murder is wrong because it is against the truth. God is a reality and He is life. Murder is against what is real and true. Not all killing is murder and that is where most people go wrong because of their lack of wisdom. God is a God who is for the poor and the weak so He wants us to protect the poor and the weak. Anything short of this and our example is a lie. If our actions fall short of justice then we are teaching lies by example and that is what makes it wrong. Justice is real and true and we should strive to treat our fellow man with mercy and justice and anything short of that is a lie and not the truth. We should think on these things whatever is true, pure,and beautiful. Can any rational man be against these things. Lou
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Pardon...
| Posted On: 04/17/07 10:06:35 PM |
Age 19, MN |
but I'm not the coach...thank you.
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Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/17/07 10:00:29 PM |
Age 19, MN |
Query: How do you know what you are saying is true?
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Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/17/07 01:38:00 PM |
Age 47, CA |
Hate to rain on this parade but it is a fallacy that this is a "Great Christian Nation". Even prior to gaining independence, there were many attrocities commited by the Colonists. During the French & Indian war, a militia responded to a raid by Huron Indians not by pursuing the offenders but by retaliating against the first tribe they could find. The one tribe they decided to slaughter was one that did convert to Christianity and they all died Praying for Jesus to forgive their oppressors.
The Declaration of Independence directly violates Romans 13: 1-2 calling for submission to authority. 2 warns that whosover rebels against authority rebels against what God has established.
God obviously had plans for this nation. We need to understand that he allowed our rebellion to run it's couse for HIS purpose.
Most Americans claim to be Christian but our conduct says otherwise.
By the way, Islam does forbid murder too and they behead thier murderers, not lock them up in celss that are more luxurious than many homes in other nations.
If it is ok for us to strap bombs on computers and send them fourth to blow up "Those evil Muslims" then it is difficult to condem them for doing the same thing manually.
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Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/17/07 01:33:04 PM |
Age 37, NY |
Actually murder and suicide bombing are against the law in Iraq (and Israel). It is true that those who do it feel justified by their religion. It also seems to me that the Bible condones all types of immoralitykilling, rape, and slavery for example. History has shown this to be true. It wasnt until 1865 that America thought it immoral to own slaves (almost 100 years after the creation of the constitution). But even then people killed to keep it. The morality that shows that it was wrong came in spite of what the Bible says. The 10 Commandments? Its hardly a complete moral guide. The first 4 arent even about morality. What about killing? Is killing wrong because God said not to do it or did he say not to do it because its wrong? Without law #6, would you not understand that killing is wrong? Every civilization throughout history no matter their religion understood this. Could you not? It basically boils down to in group/out group. When humans lived in tribes it was justifiable to kill others outside of your group (but not in). As civilization progressed, so did the definitions of groups. The problem with Christianity and the Muslim religions is that they approach the world with a first century in group/out group mentality. This is why slavery existed all the way until the 19th century and all the wars in the 21st century are of a religious nature. To use your poor constructed analogy; If the pilgrims were Muslims (and presumably the worlds current superpower), it would be the Christians who strap bombs to themselves.
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Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/17/07 12:28:19 PM |
Age 40, MN |
I think the Puritans would be quite surprised at your characterization of them. It may 'fit' your world view to call them non-Christians, but that just wasn't the case. Deal with the difficulty of this,not just the easy answer that isn't factual. This is from noted theologian Dr. Logan, a pretty conservative voice::
"Puritans" wanted to remain as part of the English establishment, working for biblical reform from within. Even as they emigrated to New England, they affirmed their "Englishness" and saw the main purpose of their new colony as being that of a biblical witness, a "city on a hill" which would set an example of biblical righteousness in church and state for Old England and the entire world to see. As deeply committed covenant theologians, they emphasized especially strongly the corporate righteousness of their entire community before God.
"Pilgrims" wanted to achieve "reformation without tarrying," even if it meant separating from their church and their nation. While they continued to think of themselves as English, their emphasis was on their new political identity and spiritual identity. Because of their passionate commitment to the necessity of reformation immediate and without compromise, they emphasized especially strongly individual righteousness before God.
What united Massachusetts Bay and Plymouth, what united both Puritans and Pilgrims was far more significant than what distinguished them. All children of the Reformation, they knew that salvation was by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. And they knew this because they took, as their authority, Scripture alone.
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Re: Re: Re: What if the Pilgrims Had Been Muslims?
| Posted On: 04/16/07 10:05:29 PM |
Age 47, OH |
Don't feel sorry for the students. Ultimately they weren't fooled by leading questions, misleading premises and circular logic. Many of them ripped up the business cards Daubenmire gave them and left angry and indignant according to Daubenmire who gave a different version of this story on his radio show.
I am in sales so I tend to see things from a sales point of view. I sell medical equipment while Daubenmire sells Christian ideology. He tries to anyway. I think that if a salesman enters a room full of potential customers and gives a presentation that causes many of the potential customers to leave pissed off than that is just poor salesmanship. Even if you get one student who responds positively, you have lost the others FOREVER.
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