Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 12:53:32 PM |
Age 52, CA |
I am far from "perfect". I don't think that I am or claim to be. You are totally missing a very important characteristic that God has given each person. A free will to CHOOSE between sin or no sin. Everyone has the "nature" to sin or only think of one's own pleasure, but we each have to make choices of whether we will sin or not. It is incredibly simple. WE must make the CHOICES!!! Unfortunately much of mankind doesn't take responsibility for their choices or actions. God wants us to be accountable for our actions.It's much easier to blame someone else, isn't it??????? The Bible clearly states WHO WILL WIN THE WAR!!!!! It just looks like Satan is winning. Do you believe the Bible or not?? Once again, another CHOICE that only we are responsible for.
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Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 12:14:24 PM |
Age 39, CA |
First point: we inherited Adam's sin, and according to the Book of Genesis chapter 3 and Romans chapter 5, because of this inheritance, we paid two consequences -- one is spiritual and the other physical. Spiritual death (separation from God), and physical death (to dust we will return). As a consequence, God allowed the sin that we inherited through Adam to negatively affect our physical genes by the development of "timers" that cause changes like wrinkles, white hair, and general deterioration that leads to death. This same sin is also the cause of genetic disorders like Muscular Dystrophy, which lead to premature death.
Second point: God "wrote" glands into our genetic blueprint that were designed to produce pheromones that attract members of the opposite sex to each other (ultimately for procreation). God also "wrote" sensory organs that are able to receive, interpret, and act on these pheromones.
My conclusion in the form of a question: if we agree that the consequence of sin negatively affected our genes in a physical manner (death and genetic disorders), and we agree that God "wrote" genes into our genetic blueprint, how can we completely rule out the possibility of sin negatively affecting the genes that produce the glands that produce the pheromones, and sin negatively affecting the genes that produce the sensory receptors of those pheromones?
"IF" a gay gene was identified and confirmed, this would only prove that homosexuals are "born that way," but it would not give them any justification to continue living their lifestyle. Why? Everyone was born sinners (Psalm 51) because of Adams sin. And, the result of their condition was not caused or intended by God, but acquired through the consequence of sin. Bottom line, practicing homosexuality, like other sexual sins (fornication, adultery, pornography, etc.), is sinful.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 09:43:35 AM |
Age 39, CA |
This is amazing: a 16 year-old is correcting several educated adults who apparently have difficulty distinguishing between hypothetical and actual expressions.
I hope this 16 year-old's ability to read objectively doesn't become clouded by the many outside influences that, at times, create problems within the church.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 09:17:19 AM |
Age 39, CA |
Thank you! Lord help us.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 09:01:06 AM |
Age 24, NY |
Satan's obviously going to win. Satan has the Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Scientologists, Budhists, Atheists, Gays, Drug Addicts, theifs, women, murderers...etc. Not much left for Heaven after all of the "sinners" are filtered out. All of you perfect souls will be pretty lonely, but certainly satisfied in knowing that you were right.
What is Heaven exactly. What goes on there? Are all of your Earthly desires fullfilled? and if so, then would a Gay man who supresses his desire on Earth, have all of the gay sex he desires in Heaven? and if not, then why would he want to go to Heaven?
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 08:56:28 AM |
Age 29, NC |
Why would you need to change the Arminian gene? We know we are right, but we reserve the right to change our minds at any time in the future:)
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 06:43:04 AM |
Age 44, NY |
If there were no gene or predisposition to sin, why would God have ordered the slaughter of ALL his enemies when his people entered the Promised Land?
Sin IS genetic...
We ALL have sinned. The sin which has entangled all of us has been passed down from generation to generation from the seed of Adam. If you can't see that genetics is how sin has been inherited/propagated, you need to take a second look.
The only man born without sin is our Savior. His genetic material has been preserved throughout all the eggs from Eve to Mary. Since his father was not Joseph, his genetics are pure from Adam before the fall.
I wish Christians would think before they leap into a discussion which eventually will make them look stupid. Is it because they do not believe that an all powerful God could cause a genetic malformation to occur in us all that predisposes us to a certain sin?
THINK!
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Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 05:42:26 AM |
Age 37, WI |
First, there is no gay gene. However, it is true that homosexuals also procreate. There are multitudes of people who have been married, had children, and then proclaimed themselves to be homosexuals. One of my friends from childhood did just that. After claiming to be a born-again believing Christian and living a totally heterosexual life and having a son and a daughter, she moved out of her home, left her husband and began living as a homosexual. I have seen many of these people on television.
On another point, for those he claim that hormonal imbalances in utero cause homosexuality, I know personally of several cases in which a woman bore children of both sexes. The female child is mannish and lives as a lesbian. The male child is effeminate and is "gay". If the mother's chemistry were the cause wouldn't both children exhibit either maleness or femaleness? But no, perversely, the girl is masculine and the boy is feminine.
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 11:40:40 PM |
Age 45, MN |
I thought Mr. Camp did this very correctly and as he said toward the end of his article, lovingly. We have to get past the fact that every time someone in the Body brings correction that it automatically means "judging".
I would love Christians to join in this fray for the alcoholics who have a "disease". Why have we as the Body given that one over to AA and let pass for free? If alcoholism is a disease (and it isn't) I tell my friends it is the only one that will keep you from heaven. People with cancer, MS etc can go to heaven. But the Bible specifically says that "drunkards will not enter the kingdom of God". HOw does one catch the disease of alcoholism anyway....at the store?
While homosexuality is NOT genetic, I believe that it mainly comes from either porn, molestation or disfunctional parenting.
THAT can give ALL of us more compassion on ministering to those without Jesus.
John from MN
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Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 10:17:38 PM |
Age 24, TX |
I've heard the homosexual tendency/temptation compared to alcohlism, in this sense. Some people are more prone to abuse alcohol than others, but they are not "let off the hook" just because they have this weakness. In the same way, a heterosexual person is in no way justified for adultery just because his or her genes tend toward the opposite sex. And these biological, (and heterosexuality especially) and genetic in origin. Yet acting on these genetic dispositions is wrong!
So what makes a homosexual tendency any different? Even if science does find a genetic cause for homosexuality, it is NOT an excuse. That behavior still must be avoided, just like the alcohol must not drink, and the heterosexual teen must not sleep with his/her date, no matter the biological/fleshly instincts! I see no reason to fear the discovery of a biological (possibly genetic) cause for the homosexual behavior. Any warm-blooded teenage boy can point to his hormones/genes to justify his passions.
This is where Mohler has it exactly right. We must not condemn the homosexual for his temptations, anymore than we condemn a husband for being tempted by another woman. We must encourage them in the strength and blood of Christ to overcome/flee the temptation. The only sin is to act or meditate on these temptation.
Let's please stop condemning people for their unique temptations. We all have temptations, and they can all be biological in origin (orginal sin, fallen flesh). All our sin is wicked, and the sin of pride is just as filthy to Christ as the perversion of sex. Praise the power of Christ who conquered sin and His Spirit who enables us to overcome.
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Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 10:10:37 PM |
Age 41, NM |
Did you even read the comments you were responding to? The person stated straightforwardly that each person has a responsibility not to resist that temptation. He is not saying that if someone has a certain tendency then it exuses his behavior. Dr. Mohler did not exuse sin. Neither did the man you responded to. I suppose you have a natural inclination and attraction to people of the opposite sex. Does that mean its okay for you to engage in sinful sexual activity? HEAVENS NO! Then why would you suggest that to say someone has homosexual tendencies excuses their sin?
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 10:02:56 PM |
Age 53, IA |
I had grown so weary of the countless numbers of times the EXCUSE of a particular "predisposition" to any given sin being "genetic" that I had started responding "all sin is genetic" - meaning that to be "all sin is original sin" - inherited from Adam - the problem is certainly NOT a physical attribute such as the gene code; it's entirely SPIRITUAL.
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Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 10:01:24 PM |
Age 52, ON |
I absolutely agree. You either believe God's word or you don't. God created Adam (man) in His image, then He created Eve (woman). They fit together so perfectly that children were born. It's that simple. IN HIS IMAGE!!! A man and a woman. Then God tells us that it is sin for it to be any other way. You either believe the entire Bible or you don't. I do believe that the Bible is God's word and I believe it entirely. God gave us such simple rules and the world wants to play "God" and try to find ways to change the rules. And let's not forget that Satan thinks he'll win. But WE KNOW WHO WINS!!!!!!!!
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 09:58:30 PM |
Age 41, NM |
God call something sin and then builds it into us so that we can't help but sin? That is totally unscriptural. What about James 1:13-14 "And remember, no one who wants to do wrong should ever say, 'God is tempting me.' God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else either. Temptation comes from the lure of our own evil desires..."
God created man perfect. Adam walked in perfect harmony with God, unbroken fellowship. But he chose to sin. The Bible clearly teaches that sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all me because all sinned.
God did not "design" sin into our genetic code. We need to search the scriptures for answers not make up our own answers.
That said - we all have certain tendencies. Greed or pornography may be my issues and your may be drugs and alcohol. Those things become sinful when we act upon them, rather than crucify them.
What I don't know is if these "tendencies" are genetic or not. But even if they are, they are not designed by God. They are the result of the fall.
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 09:46:48 PM |
Age 41, NM |
Dr. Mohler specifically stated that homosexual "behavior" remains sinful, no matter what genetics a man may possess. But genetic studies may find that some people have a genetic disposition toward homosexual "orientation". We need to keep in mind the difference between "orientation" and "behavior".
I have a natural sexual drive toward women. And with that I have a responsibility to crucify my flesh and not lust. I also must control myself and not allow myself to commit adultery. My "tendency" or "orientation" is not sinful...it just IS. It becomes sin when I act upon my sinful tendency and engage in sinful "behavior". The same is true for a Christian man who has inclinations toward men. He must control those things. He must not lust. He must not commit fornication.
I do not know if these "tendencies" are genetic in nature or not. Just that if I act on them, I sin against God and against my own body, as the scriptures teach.
NO TEMPTATION HAS SEIZED YOU EXCEPT WHAT IS COMMON TO MAN (in other words no temptation is unique to me, my tendency is not some special circumstance that allows me freedom to sin) AND GOD IS FAITHFUL. HE WILL NOT LET YOU BE TEMPTED BEYOND WHAT YOU CAN BEAR. BUT WHEN YOU ARE TEMPTED HE WILL PROVIDE A WAY OUT SO THAT YOU CAN STAND UP UNDER IT. 1 CORINTHIANS 10:13
I do not believe Dr. Mohler was in any way excusing homosexual activity as something that is not sinful. It is. It always will be, just as adultery and fornication and beastiality and lust are always sinful.
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 09:29:17 PM |
Age 41, MT |
Regards to Steve Camp article:
Steve, I appreciate your stand and committment to the gospel. You properly gave credit where due to Al Mohler, yet even though I am in total agreement with you on your rebuttal, I was a little disappointed. At some points you came across kind of arrogant, and a little more smart alecky than edifying. I agree with your stand completely, I just feel it is proper that we truly exhort in love, not with a hint of cockiness. Thanks again for your work.
Scott
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 08:56:43 PM |
Age 16, MN |
if one were to look at Doc. Mohler's writings, it would become very clear that he does NOT believe that sin is in the genes. yes, that is what he said in that one paragraph. but when reading ones writings one can't imply their own meanings. one has to read objectively. i understand that mohler made it sound like that was what he was saying but that is not what he was trying to imply. he was in fact theorizing. as a group of people had presented that argrument, he was simply saying IF THAT WERE TRUE, THEN... he never meant to imply that it was. i would urge people to go read his other works before coming to the concensus that he truly believes that.
~hillary age 16
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 08:34:04 PM |
Age 34, MO |
Hi. Interesting response. Did you actually read either of Mohler's articles, or merely respond off the cuff?
Btw, I believe Mohler is being a witness here in season and out of season, preaching the word in a secular context. Please remember this is the future. Thanks.
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 08:28:45 PM |
Age 77, MN |
I think they are mistaking a genetic function for an endocrine function. Hormones can change the physical form and mental outlook from male to female orientation and vice versa. This is not genetic. This is apart from the volitional aspects of same sex desire which is sin. Endocrine misfunction can predispose one toward a particular thought pattern. The sin is there when a person acts on those predispositions. God gives us the ability to resist sinful actions.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/20/07 08:09:48 PM |
Age 50, VA |
You wrote, "1. The Bible is no more a biology textbook than it is a calculus textbook." Well, I certainly hope the Bible isn't a biology textbook because we'd have to rewrite (correct) it every year! BUT where the Bible touches on biology IT IS TRUE. Where it touches on geology IT IS TRUE. Where it touches on anthropology IT IS TRUE. Where it touches on cosmology IT IS TRUE. So no, the Bible is not primarily a science textbook BUT wherever it touches on science IT IS TRUE! The scripture is the infalliable, inerrant, and all-sufficient Word of God!
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