Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/22/07 03:21:49 PM |
Age 39, CA |
Just God never created nor inserted sin into man's genes (through Adam), he would never insert such a gene. Such a gene "IF" it ever existed would be abnormal as a result of sin, just like all other genetic disorders (e.g. muscular dystrophy, clinical depression, hyperthyroidism, etc.).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/22/07 03:10:04 PM |
Age 39, CA |
Let's agree that because of sin, Adam and his descendants (you and I included) have within each of our genetic codes, timers that set off certain functions -- one of which sets off the process of gradual decay and ultimately the complete cesation of the function of the cells that the genes control.
Do you still believe sin doesn't cause genetic abnormalities that weren't intended by God?
Furthermore, to this day, despite millions and millions of dollars that are spent on research, scientists remain baffled on the idea of reversing the process of death in our genetic code.
Because according to the book of Ecclesiastes, God appointed a day for "EVERY" man (yes, every one that will ever exist) to die, so you can rest assure that God will never go back on His word by allowing man to make this determination through genetic re-engineering.
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Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/22/07 02:55:51 PM |
Age 39, CA |
Let's agree that the consequence of sin was death (both spiritual and physical). There is an unknown process in the genes of every cell that, at an appointed time that only God knows, ceases to function and the result is death.
Do you still believe sin doesn't cause genetic abnormalities?
And by the way, medical science has not made any progress, none whatsoever, in reversing the process of dying. Many have tried gene therapy and re-engineering, but the researchers remain perplexed. And don't expect them to make any progress -- God won't allow them the opportunity. Only God's in charge of appointing a time to die. If not, He's a failure. And we know that is not possible. And God won't allow any man to play God, unless it is in God's will (He's in control regardless).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/22/07 02:24:38 PM |
Age 39, CA |
If a gay person says, "It's not my fault, I was born that way," I can reply, "According to Psalm 51 and Romans 5, it's not my fault that I was conceived in sin and condemned to hell before I was even born." But this doesn't mean that I can continue living in my sinful lifestyle (fornication, drunkardness, etc.).
See my point?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/22/07 02:17:01 PM |
Age 39, CA |
I never indicated that the possibility of a genetic defect was the cause of homosexuality.
I indicated that no one can rule out the "possibility" of sin (the sin that entered Adam and mankind, which is the cause of a genetic defect in the thyroid gland called hyperthyroidism), causing a defect in the Hypothalamus and Pituitary glands -- which lead to sin. However, this does not justify ANY sin because only the blood of Jesus can do that. Homosexuals, regardless of whether there is a gay gene or not, still need salvation as does any other type of sinner who isn't born again.
This information would not encourage homosexuals to use the gay gene as a means to justify their lifestyle because the Bible clearly indicates that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom.
A genetic disorder called affective spectrum disorder may link 14 different genetic mental disorders that fall under Anxiety disorders, e.g. Bipolar disorder and clinical depression caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, or more specifically, a deminished output of serotonin that is below that of the average person. This has been proven. Depression can lead to sinful behaviors like substance abuse and self-destructive behaviors. Aren't these behaviors just as sinful as homosexual acts?
Again I say, the sin we inherited from Adam, which caused the genetic disorders in humanity, can lead to sinful behavior. Charles Spurgeon suffered severe clinical depression to the point that after a sermon he collapsed from an episode of massive depression and had to be carried out of the church building. According to one of his books, this condition caused him to doubt God, and even his own salvation at times. Satan used this condition to mess with Charles Spurgeon -- as, by the way, the messenger from hell buffetted the Apostle Paul.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/22/07 01:02:05 PM |
Age 68, MA |
Since God is not the author of confusion guess who caused the confusion? Dr. Mohler.
There are many brilliant people who read tons of books, retain what they read, write papers, and say wonderful things etc. This does not place them above being wrong. One example of this is the late scientist Carl Sagan who was an atheist, and there are many more such examples. Ministers, teachers, & preachers are called to one thing. Preach the Gospel for it is the power of God onto salvation, not to speculation or what- ifs, which only divert the attention away from the truly critical issue as is so evident in the huge amount of discussion surrounding Mohler's words. Let us attend to God's Word.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/22/07 12:36:12 PM |
Age 68, MA |
The Great Commission has nothing to do with theorizing about things we know nothing about. That includes speculating about scientific theory around gay genes. The Commission is to preach the Gospel and make diciples period, not cause confusion. The arrogant one is the esteemed Dr. Mohler. He opened his mouth & shoved his whole lower body into it, not just a foot. I don't have the time or patience to sift through any other gobbledygook he has wriiten. Will be too busy engaging in reading what God said in HIS Book. As no doubt has already been said, preach the Gospel, otherwise shut up.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 10:36:11 PM |
Age 43, NC |
There is no justification of sin before a holy, righteous and just God. Yet the continued quest in hope of finding a "Gay-gene" fuels and reinforces the sinners self justification. "It's not my fault" "I am a victim of my genetic make up." "By the grace of god I am what I am." Such a sin gene would have to be placed in Adam prior to his act of sin and would thereby make God the author of sin. (otherwise how could Adam be predisposed to sin?) Sin exists outside of and apart from genes and genetic markers. So the argument here is over an effect and not the cause. The effect of sin is a contaminated genetic makeup, to say anymore is to open the door for self justification and sin-based behavorial reinforcement.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 10:03:44 PM |
Age 43, NC |
Hmmm, The "sin" gene??? Salvation through science. That would certainly take a load of guilt off of us if we could find the gene that causes sin. That would make us victims of a birth defect thereby releasing us from the personal responsibility of sin. Sin was an act of the will, introduced into the human race by the first Adam. Sin changed the nature of man and his relationship with God, his creator. Now for there to be a sin-gene either Adam was given creative powers at the moment he sinned to create in himself such a gene or God created a sin-gene in Adam before He sinned thereby making God the author of sin. Heresy on both counts. The god of modern science would love for us to buy into the DNA "sin-helix" hypothesis. Seminaries will be mapping the sin-geome in search of a cure for sin. Why is it we are so intimited by our culture that we do everything in our power to make the Word of God conform to the science of this world? We are now entertaining the idea that God created a gene that predisposes people to sin, making God the author of sin??? Why are we trying to make excuses for sin? We all have sinned, we are sinners and each of us are guilty and condemned by that sin unless we have been born again, by receiving the gift of God's grace, through faith in the finished work of atonement by Jesus Christ on the cross, and new life by the power of His resurrection from the dead. There is only one cure for sin and that is found in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Period!
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 09:52:48 PM |
Age 39, KS |
You were doing pretty good until the end. You are right. There is no reason why sin can't be explained by genes of a fallen race--humans. I don't have any problem reconciling the idea that there may be a "gay" gene with the verses that Steve Camp quoted from the Bible. Just because someone has a gene that may pre-dispose them to a certain kind of sin, does not mean that they are exempt from the consequences of that sin. That's why I am so disappointed in the arrogance of Steve Camp's article. But, your post also ended with some concerns. You have quite a theory about the the genetic material being passed from Eve to Mary and it not being imperfect, but I doubt there is much science to support that. So take your own advice, and don't state so matter-of-factly that something is the case, when you don't really know. It's an interesting hyposthesis, but it may end up making you look stupid in the end.
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 07:40:33 PM |
Age 24, KY |
Dr. Mohler, having been bombarded with questions regarding the article Mr. Camp is referring to, has since posted another article (on his website www.albertmohler.com) explaining what he meant. It's a must read for everyone who was confused about his statements.
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Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 06:32:30 PM |
Age 43, WI |
We are all "born in sin". Only thru Christ we can be transformed thru the sanctification process. God clearly judges unrepentive sin repeatedly in life's manual; the bible. God does not condemn handicaps; born with a disability gene. Homosexuality is sin, not a handicap. Beware of the false teachers & the Laodecean churches as it states in the good book! They are lining up across America. Woe to a nation who calls evil good & good evil.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 06:21:45 PM |
Age 39, CA |
Titus chapter 3 verse 4-5 reads: We were not saved by our righteous acts (living a good life), but by the mercy of Christ.
In the book of Isaiah we read that our most righteous acts are like filthy (I'll spare the exact Hebrew word and definition for the sake of appropriateness) rags.
Paul refused to describe what Heaven was like after returning from a visit to the third Heaven (where God is), because he thought there were no words that could adequately describe how good it was. He thought using the words that came even remotely clost would only serve as an injustice.
Based on a couple experiences I've had in the last five years, I can attest to the inexpressible sensations that can't be described with words. I am a simple Christian, nothing fancy, nothing apparently different than any other Christian. God was gracious in helping me, who once doubted God's existence, experiencing just a token of what is in store for me when I enter into Heaven. I did nothing to earn this salvation, it was a free gift when I deserved punishment -- that's grace.
All you have to do is trust that Jesus died for your sins, confess your sins to Him, ask for forgiveness and declare Him as your Lord and Savior. Leave the rest to the Holy Spirit and you will know what awaits you when you enter into Heaven. Let me just say, you'll be so convinced that Heaven will be the best thing you could ever imagine that the question of what Heaven will be like will never enter your mind again.
Try it -- would it hurt anything?
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 03:49:54 PM |
Age 64, KY |
Amen to this post.
Biology is not destiny. The hereditability for homosexualism and alcoholism are both around 50%. This figure is derived from twin studies; identical twins raised in different homes are 50% more likely to both be alcoholic or homosexual than similar fraternal twins. This fact in no way excuses getting drunk or engaging in sodomy. The hereditabiity for the sin nature is 100%; nevertheless this fact does not excuse those so afflicted for sinning. Thomas Moore, Wilmore Kentucky.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 03:03:39 PM |
Age 24, NY |
I must also add that I am not gay. I believe the Bible is full of good ideas of how to live life, but is in no way fully fact, as many people interpret it is.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 02:58:57 PM |
Age 39, CA |
Yes, there is a difference between the endocrine system and genetics. But you cannot separate the two because one is dependent on the other. Genes contain the blueprint and operating instructions of the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that controls the pituitary gland. The pituitary gland (the master gland) controls other glands that produce hormones -- in this case, hormones called pheromones. Pheromones are the hormones that are secreted and attract members of the opposite sex to each other. Also, the sensory receptors in males and females are also physical features that are dependent on the genes. So, there is no way to rule the possibility that a gay gene can exist. However, even if one did exist, it still wouldn't justify the homosexual lifestyle because we are all born sinners (regardless of the type of sin) in need of salvation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 02:51:48 PM |
Age 24, NY |
Well, before you get the wrong idea about me. I honestly live a good life. Not sinless, but also not very sinful. The obvious answer to nearly any logical debate on Christianity is "free choice" which seems to be a solid defense against any atheist attack on the religion, so I cannot possible try to argue free choice. But what happened to all of the people who died before the existence of Christianity, and more importantly, before Jesus opened the gates of Heaven? what choice and guidance did they have?
Also, I feel that God created man to be imperfect, and with that comes poor decisions. So, how can God penalize those who made "mistakes"? Is Dr. Frankenstein guilty or is his monster totally to blame? God, being omniscient had the forsight to know that man would do horrible things, so isn't God to blame.
and I ask again... What is Heaven? Is Heaven a person's Utopia, and what if a gay man supresses his homosexuality and lives a good enough life on Earth. Is that man's heaven going to allow him to fullfill his homosexual desires? and if not, is that really a Utopia for this man?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 02:31:08 PM |
Age 39, CA |
1 Corinthians 1:18, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
Through this power of God, born again Christians experience the inexpressible joy and love of God's spirit manifested in their lives.
Christians aren't perfect, but in God's eyes we are perfect through Christ's atonement on the cross. When we were born again, we were baptized into Christ, and our lives hidden in Him. Colossians 3:3 "...your life is hidden with Christ in God." This doesn't mean God doesn't know about the sins we commit. Just because you can't see the food you just ate for lunch, doesn't mean you don't know what's in your belly. We Christians experience consequences for the sins we commit while we are on earth -- but the eternal penalty for our sins has been paid by Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. God is not as concerned about our physical lives as He is concerned about our spiritual/eternal lives.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 01:05:50 PM |
Age 39, CA |
Arminian doctrine "can," in extreme cases, cause unnecessary, overwhelming burdens in the life of a newborn in Christ through legalism. This impedes spiritual growth because "the law binds us, but we are made free through Christ's death."
Calvinist doctrine "can," in extreme cases, cause unnecessary, overwhelming consequences of sin in the life of a newborn in Christ through freedom. This also impedes spiritual growth because a tiny bit of unchecked "leaven can spread through the entire dough," and doing so "grieves the Spirit."
Shouldn't we just be glad to be Christian? We were saved by Grace and not by works, but obedient to God's commands. Why? Not because we want to keep our salvation, and not ONLY because we're grateful for what Christ did on the cross -- but because the Love of Christ compels us to Love God; and from this love comes obedience. And through this obedience comes the inexpressible joy of experiencing the manifestation of His will in our lives.
One question remains: instead of devoting any thought to the issue of whether we can lose our salvation or not, shouldn't we devote more thought to whether we are continually being conformed to the image of Christ so that we can be used by God?
May we all continue to grow in grace, peace, and the knowledge of our Lord.
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Re: Re: Whatever Happened to Sin? ...One Christian Leader Suggests: it Could be in
| Posted On: 03/21/07 12:53:33 PM |
Age 34, CO |
Actually it is not much more complicated than what you have done such a great job in explaining. We all fall under the category of sinful man regardless of what the specific sin is. We all need a savior, we all need to repent and be forgiven. Every single one of us has a predisposition that we constantly have to crucify with the flesh. Thank God that he provided a way for us to be forgiven. Thanks to the Holy Spirit who enables us to resist this predispositions. Thank God we can be victorious over sin.
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