Re: of brain injuries and conviction
| Posted On: 04/06/07 01:09:55 AM |
Age 43, NC |
The string is getting thin. I could use many words and spend much time in a vain attempt to persuade you, or convince you for the truth. Only Jesus Christ is able to bring men's hearts to the truth. I leave you with this; we all are sinners. We lie, we cheat, we steal, we lust and we covet. There are none good, no not one, only God. None seeks after God yet we seek for the answers to our own existence, why are we here? what is our purpose in being? Where are we going? No human contrived philosophy has ever satisfactorily answered all life's questions. Hume, Junge, Freud, Voltaire, Paine, Nietzsche, all failed to supply definitive answers. For the most part all their thought and theories were attempts to counter the God of the Bible and to rationalize away sin and man's innate guilt due to sin. Sin is breaking God's law, Ever told a lie, that breaks the 9th commandment. Ever hated someone? That breaks the 6th commandment. Ever lusted over someone? That' the 7th commandment. ever taken God's name in vain? (ie OMG) That is blasphemy, it breaks the third commandment. Now if you break even one of these you are guilty before God. Sin has a high price, (the wages or consequences of sin is) death. Not just physical death but eternal spiritual death. That is the price for sin. God's justice and holiness requires payment for sin otherwise we can never see heaven. God's holiness demands sin be removed from His presence. God's justice demands payment for sin. Since we are tainted by sin we can offer God nothing acceptable for sin. We cannot redeem ourselves. So when we stand before God we stand there guilty and deserve only God's justice. Jesus Christ, God the Son took on flesh so that He as man could stand as our substitute to have God's wrath poured out on Himself. As God He is able to reconcile, redeem sinners who accept His offer of grace (also called salvation). Belief is not what gets one into heaven; only grace (an unmerited free gift) allows one into heaven. Belief, or Faith is only the conduit by which one is able to accept that free gift. (Faith is only as efficacious as it's object.) Only by faith in the finished work of salvation by Jesus Christ on the Cross, and power over death by His bodily resurrection, are we able to partake of His grace. Now as I stand before God, the righteous Judge does not see me in my sin but sees me in Jesus Christ, His son. Because of the Son's payment I stand justified (declared righteous before God) before the Throne of God. I pray that something I have said here makes an impression but more than that I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your blinded eyes to truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am praying for you.
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Re: Re: The problem of causality within belief
| Posted On: 03/28/07 11:57:16 PM |
Age 19, VA |
Here is a simple parable: Billy is a young child, raised in a good home, by happy, loving parents. Billy comes up to you one day and says, 'my mommy is the greatest mommy in the whole world.' You're thoughts may be something along the lines of 'oh, Billy obviously loves his mother very much.' or 'Billy was probably raised in a good family.' You probably wouldn't think something along the lines of 'How dare he! I know from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that there my mother was superior in every way--how could she not be? Everything I know came from her, and I know she was the best.' Even if you did know Billy's mother personally and didn't have a very high opinion of her, you probably wouldn't dream of saying to Billy, ' No Billy, you don't know what a good mommy is, let me show you my mommy and what a truly greatest mommy looks like.' You would be a fearful, insecure, and highly confused person if you did. Billy wouldn't like you very much, and any adult in the room would wonder about your sanity. That, my friend, is the nature of tolerance--the realization that someone's love for what is important to that person is not a contradiction of the love that you might feel for what is important to you. By your logic thus far you would say that in the case of the afterlife, which mommy you love can land you on the wrong side of eternity. This insistence on infinite damnation for a finite existence, without a given understanding of the facts and forces involved, is both biblically questionable and unfair. Hell of course, appears in the bible, but never as a point of eternity, or without controversy as to its intended definition.
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of brain injuries and conviction
| Posted On: 03/28/07 11:56:52 PM |
Age 19, VA |
But let us consider the more immediate ramifications of our very beliefs affecting the destination of our souls. The human brain can become convinced, or more accurately can convince itself, of anything and everything it can conceive. If we believe a point enough, we may say that a certain idea is part of our identity; that this certain thought is part of how our personality develops and how we see ourselves. A very important facet of our brains is the ability to destroy beliefs--to completely remove an idea from our identity. This means that, as far as our understanding is concerned, ideas themselves aren't physically occupying a 'spot' the way matter does--since matter cannot be destroyed, just rearranged. If an idea can come to occupy no space, as far as our identity is concerned, two ideas can occupy the same space. You could potentially identify yourself as both liberal and conservative, pessimistic and optimistic, confident and shy, without necessarily suffering massive cognitive dissonance. The limits of the brains conceptual power have yet to be identified, although it bears mentioning that things like quantum physics are beginning to cause our brains to struggle with the concept itself in ways that hasn't been seen before.This vast playground of thought, with its pickings among theoretically infinite ideas to choose from, can quite easily believe conflicting things, or can come to identify things that appear quite contradictory when placed next to each other but came about from different ends of the universe as far as someone's personal development is concerned. So ideas, beliefs, identity itself is nearly meaningless, or at least at the whims of ones own mental discipline and free will. At the same time, while physical laws may not be necessary for our brains various thoughts, the brain itself exists in a very physical, material sense, and is subject to acts from the outside environment. a rock hitting someone in the head with sufficient force, for instance, will affect someone's brain, and, consequently, the corresponding thought process. Since our personality is active in our frontal lobe, a brain injury there can change ones personality, can make people lose large sections of their identity. Head trauma victims, including a famous extreme example of one man who survived with a spike through his head, have been known to go from mean to friendly and vice versa, and to change their beliefs about the afterlife. So would God tie our salvation to something as fleeting, as small, as limitless, and as fragile as our identity? Could one be condemned to hell for getting hit with a rock? If someone believes genuinely that christ died for their sins and accepts him as a personal savior, but also genuinely believes they will be reincarnated as they journey towards joining the God-head, and that the messiah is yet to arrive, and that muhammad was divinely inspired, which belief counts after that brain stops functioning? Do some outweigh the others? Does the creed that states that acceptance of Jesus' forgiveness include rejection of certain other ideas? Is any of this getting through? There is no justifiable way to tie admittance into heaven to belief. If any standard at all could begin to make sense, It would likely involve the practice of loving actions (God is what we're supposed to be pouring so much love into isn't it?). This is getting long, and this story is getting pushed farther back. Ill check it a few times more, but if you would like to email me my address is Taylor.Sharp.06@cnu.edu.
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Re: The problem of causality within belief
| Posted On: 03/27/07 12:08:32 PM |
Age 43, NC |
Oh, I wish I had been able to get back to this string sooner...
I hope you are still reading, because there are no do-overs. This life is all there is, and it appointed unto man (man-kind) once to die and after this the judgment. Jesus Christ came to seek and to save the lost when He came as the servant/Saviour. After He offered Himself as the atonement for sin, He now sits on the right hand of the Father in power and Glory. He is now our Judge and His judgment is Righteous and Just. No appeals and no review. The work of God is all around us; the vastness of the universe; the precision of days,weeks, months, seasons and years; the complexity of the human eye (even Darwin admitted the eye was the greatest argument against his theory); the smaller we are able to research and discover the more complex the building blocks of life become (so much so that evolution has to break the rules of other science in order to argue for its own validity) so God, by His own creative will designed His creation so that all things show He created them. Leaving no excuse for man-kind. We will all stand before God Almighty, our creator and we will give account for every idle word, thought and deed. For the Christian. Jesus Christ Himself will plead our case and declare us righteous based on His grace that we recieved through faith. There are no do-overs. Any religion that does not exalt Jesus Christ as Lord, Saviour and God the Son is a false religion. I say that on the authority of the Word of God, the Holy Bible. (The Bible does not merely "contain" the words of God, it IS the Word of God) You reject the truth at your own peril. If I am wrong then... so what! If you are wrong you will have all eternity to remember when you were told the truth and you rejected it.
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The problem of causality within belief
| Posted On: 03/24/07 02:37:33 PM |
Age 19, VA |
Peoples lives change for various reasons with similar results to what you describe happening for born again christians. Indeed, several atheists will tell of a life better lived and more full of meaning after they gave up religion. The same could be said for converts of islam, hinduism, buddhism, new age practitioners, neo-pagans, adherents of Taoism, even those who have gone from liberal to conservative or vise-versa. a personal lifestyle change could at most suggests a need in each life to reject the old and accept the new, although the numbers of people who don't convert to something or other would speak against that idea. conversions happen, usually with positive lifestyle changes, from any and every given ideology to any and every other ideology. The fact remains that an attitude shift is in no way proof that any of these ideologies are superior. As has been argued by a friend of mine, No matter what you're view of the afterlife, you can use that view to justify living to make things better here, or you can justify being selfish and ignoble to you're fellow man. Belief, ultimately, does not itself change the person's attitude--it may however accompany that change. This accurately explains why you still see certain christians, with deep, genuine convictions, do hateful things to others, such as bomb public events, or justify genocide, or commit crimes like anybody else, despite being named for a figure referred to as the 'prince of peace'. As to your 'evidence' that Jesus' resurrected form was seen by 500 people, the only given account is the Bible, which is not regarded as a historically reliable text. In fact, christians usually argue that it shouldn't have to be, as it is for spiritual purposes, not historic ones, and documents can be found to back up those portions which make claims about history. Fair enough, its just that not one of those 500 bothered to write down on anything that survived the encounter with Jesus, or talked to someone else who had an actual historical account of the times. So thats no evidence in any scientific sense. as to your last point, the thought of living a sad life if one does not believe in the afterlife, I would submit to you that perhaps it is your life is sad and you're simply hoping for a do-over
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Re: etc.
| Posted On: 03/24/07 12:49:58 AM |
Age 43, NC |
Wow! A nearly perfect circle. Actually all your criteria for proof of gravity also applys to the things of God. See the Christian life is also demonstrable, in how the Born Again believer lives their life after their new birth compared to their old life. (posessors of the new life, not just professors of a new life) There is a demonstrable comparison. The new life in Christ Jesus is also applicable to everyday life and the decisions we make. We choose to walk according to the Word of God. We base our entire worldview on the revealed word of God. (and though the Bible is not a science book, where it touches on things of science is is not wrong. Evolution [macro-] is not science, it is a theory in search of proof.)
And the new life in Christ Jesus can be proven by the most accepted form of legal proof, eyewitness testimony. See, I and all Born Again Christians can testify to what Jesus Christ has done in our hearts and our lives. The sheer preponderance of such testimony meets all the legal burdens required for evidence. See,all are saved (Born again) the same way: through grace by faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is; His death on the Cross to pay for our sin,according to Scripture; His burial, according to Scripture; and His bodily resurrection from the dead unto life everlasting, again according to scripture and.. witnessed to by over 500 persons.(another preponderance of eyewitness testimony) Yet all who are Born again do not have the same conversion experience. However, when we give our testimonies they all tell the same thing: we saw we were sinners, under the curse of death and eternity in hell because we have sinned against the Holy, Righteous and Just Creator God. Our guilt was sure and the execution of our sentance was to be carried out; except that one who was worthy and able to pay for our sins, took our place and died in our stead. He then offered to us His gift of grace, eternal life and restored relationship with our Creator through remission of sin by His own blood. We saw our need and accepted His gift of grace. At that moment we were born again, we became new in Christ Jesus. (not perfect creatures but we desire to be Christ-like in all we say and do.) So have you given much thought to eternity? If this life is all there is then, Why are we here? What is our purpose in living? I death is all there is waiting at the end of life we are sad creatures indeed. I can tell you that it is not all there is, there is so much more and it is all to be found in only one person, The Lord, our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
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etc.
| Posted On: 03/23/07 03:54:49 PM |
Age 19, VA |
I would never want to be thought as saying that one opinion was equal to another. When one says, 'well, thats just your opinion' they have given up the argument. The problem arises with your assertion of gravity. It's demonstrable, applicable, and scientifically verified as a phenomena that behaves in certain ways. Physicists argue over exactly what gravity is, how it came about, what it is about the universe that makes things exhibit gravity, but as a phenomena we can say with quite a bit of certainty that something is going on there, and we call this something gravity. With something like 'God', 'heaven', the afterlife, the value of faith, or generally anything that could be described as 'supernatural' is not subject to the rigors of science. Thats why its supernatural, because its beyond nature. Where religion crosses over into nature claims, however, science has had much to say, usually disproving these claims or relegating them to 'poetic expression' of how the universe actually works. So when it comes to any given belief in the supernatural, or any article of faith at all, there is no measuring scale, no good way to call someone 'wrong,' or 'irrational,' because it's all irrational, or rather, 'post-rational,' in a sense. You may say we can disbelieve things we observe or measure in science, that we can't actually be sure of anything, and indeed we can't. However, we have a reason to act as if these things are true, because, as far as we can tell, they have a definite impact on the reality that we seem to be moving through. For something like God, where we have no reason to believe or accept until we see a natural effect that can be proven 'beyond reasonable doubt,' so there is little point in verbally assaulting those that think differently about that which has no discernible effect on us.
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Re: Re: Thats just what you believe, Darlin
| Posted On: 03/21/07 05:39:39 PM |
Age 43, NC |
If you are opining against Mr. Patrick's article let me ask you this. Do you believe in gravity? You can't see it, you can't touch it and you can't hear, taste or smell it. Yet, in spite of all this lack of evidence you still believe in gravity?
I don't believe in gravity. Whose belief is more valid? And don't tell me I'm wrong because I don't believe in gravity. It's my belief; it's what I believe in and according to the new religion of tolerance, you are a narrow minded, bigot if you don't accept my beliefs are equally as true as yours. Come to think of it, I don't believe in holes either.
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Re: Thats just what you believe, Darlin
| Posted On: 03/20/07 03:59:09 PM |
Age 19, VA |
very good: others are wrong because they are wrong and we need to tell them they are wrong. This is so full of holes i have to wonder what kind of person would push this into open sea in the first place.
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