Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/07/07 09:11:12 PM |
Age 54, AL |
Candace, I am so happy finally that someone has put the difference between the sexes on the table where it belongs. Too frequently today's society pretends that men and women are "the same," and that there is no difference between husband and wife. And yet as Jesus reminds us, this diversity is part of the beauty of our spiritual community. But I would like to add a modest request regarding the message board, if I may? All of the postees are referred to only by age and location. Yet is this as important as knowing whether the postee is really Steve or is in fact Sheila? It would help me greatly in reading these responses to bear in mind the identity of the writer. As in marriage, men's and women's roles in discussion too must differ. If you do not think it wise to at least include first names, I hope you will at least consider indicating (perhaps through color-coded type?) the gender. Again, thank you for your spiritual work in these pages. You are a blessing!
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Well...
| Posted On: 03/07/07 07:56:04 PM |
Age 19, MN |
...ok, I take it back, the comparison doesn't fit as well as I thought it did. The point that I was arguing was not explicitly stated-the above poster said, "Are we to conceive of a marriage as part of an aggressive unit?"-which I was trying to answer. The other point, about the kids having a say was unstated by the poster (which I totally apologize for since I made an erroneous assumption) was that to argue that "Because men and women are both human, both are equal in authority". My point was that that argument falls apart when you throw in the kids together, so again, I totally apologize for answering something that was unstated. Now, from a totally Biblical standpoint, the husband is the head of the household (i.e. final decision maker). However, there is something that needs to be noticed: Husbands are commanded to love their wives. Part of that means that they should listen to them and take things into consideration. I say this, however, as someone who is (A) Young (B) Unmarried and not really even dating. My point was really to answer the military comparison, I got a little carried away without considering what was being totally said. I DO NOT consider women as inferior mentally or anything like that, just fulfilling a different role than a male (not to mention just as glorifying to God). Anyway, have a great day and God Bless!!
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Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/07/07 09:21:09 AM |
Age 71, NJ |
I was married for 40 years to a functioning alcoholic. He was also a bully. When he died 10 years ago, I felt free for the first time in my life. Our family (4 children) pretty much submitted to him in most things just to avoid his rage if he didn't get his own way. He was always around 16 years old emotionally. But, in hindsight, I'm glad I went along rather than break up my family. The major deterrent in today's culture is that there are not enough MEN to actually assume the role of leader. Too many of today's wives and mothers have to assume both roles if the family is going to survive.
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/07/07 08:55:16 AM |
Age 28, TX |
Right there with you, Rev. People usually look at my marriage and marvel. "You're more educated than your husband; you're smarter; you're more eloquent...Why do you let HIM make all the calls?"
Answer: Because my husband is a good man. He may not always do the "best" thing, but he will always do the right thing. That's why I married him--well, other than that he's the handsomest man on Earth. He's the first person outside of Christ I've ever been able to trust completely. I could never have married someone I didn't respect--and everyone can see that I respect him!
The fun part is that, since we've gotten married, he's had a very drastic promotion (from barely a supervisor to a major management figure with lots of responsibility and authority), and he has the respect even of his boss and his rivals--some of whom have no respect for anyone. Wifely submission pays, big-time.
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Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/07/07 08:49:30 AM |
Age 59, MN |
Another excellant source on this subject is "Me Obey Him" by Elizabeth Rice Handford. This book was recommended by Elizabeth Elliott and served me well.
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Re: Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/07/07 12:03:58 AM |
Age 30, IN |
In your comparison of parents/children to husbands/wives, I would note that children do not have the requisite knowledge, experience, maturity, wisdom, emotional and spiritual discipline, or formed character that sound decision-making (e.g. for a family) requires. And that is why they do not have authority equal to their parents. Notice those are facts about the nature of children - and that those facts are what justify the inequality of power/authority. In the case of soldiers vs. commanding officers, the same is true: those in command have relevantly greater experience, competence, skills, etc. that justify putting them in places of responsibility over other adults. What, in your view, are the relevant facts about those born female that justify the relevant power/authority difference between them and males (when married)? And if those are facts about women - why shouldn't there be a GENERAL power difference, in all matters of life, between men and women? Why restrict it to marriage? Or are there no such facts? If so, then what would justify the difference in power (or at least, what would make the military and parenting analogies analogous?)
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Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 09:56:35 PM |
Age 39, NV |
Amen! You have adequately and correctly described what a Chrisitan wife can do for a Godly husband, both in positive and negative aspects. As another reader put it, you should consider some form of education on this subject for other Christian women. Thanks for hitting the nail on the head!
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 09:17:42 PM |
Age 19, MN |
Actually, I would point out that since one purpose of marriage to bring about godly offspring, and since that there a war of worldviews, the military command structure actually fits. This doesn't mean that a true family must live in boot camps and learn to shoot a bazooka, the structure command of the military was an analogy of to help us understand what it's like in general. Parents are stated to be the primary teachers of a child's heart and mind. So, since the "War of the Mind" is raging (perhaps more fiercely than man's history may have ever known), like I said, the military comparison fits. If I can point something else out, parent's and kids are both human, but obviously the parent's are in charge of the kids. If it was really an equal command structure (to follow the logic to the ends) the kids would have to be able to make rules as well as parents. I can safely say that chaos probably would ensue very quickly if that happened. Anyway, have a great day and God Bless!!
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Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 05:26:00 PM |
Age 55, MN |
The only other Helper for a man is The Holy Spirit, as described in the Bible. So the use of the word helper is not to be interpreted as door mat or servant! Marriage as created by God was to be co-regents of all creation! But just as there can be only one Head of the Church there can be only one leader of the Family when tough decisions need to be made! Otherwise decisions are to be made by the couple together. When there is disagreement then the husband needs to make the call and be accountable for the ramifications of it! This is not license to dominate by the man as under the curse, and because of that curse the woman should not try to usurp the mans authority under God.
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Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 03:33:22 PM |
Age 38, TX |
Let me begin by saying that I am a man and that you are are one of the few women whom I believe has had the honesty and courage to face up to the clear teaching of Scripture on the subject of women submitting to their husbands. Most women I believe know this and conveniently ignore it so they don't have to face up to it. And then they wonder and complain why their marriage is dsfunctional or they get divorced. I haven't even heard pastors point this out in a single sermon. Not once--ever. The last generation of men has been banged in the head for decades by liberal feminists to believe that if we assert any kind of leadership whatsoever, or imply that a woman should submit in any shape, form, or fashion, we are total male chauvinist pigs, which is not the case. Your point that women are helpers is important; they are not slaves. Men should keep that in mind also. Men should do housework, whatever it is: diapers, vacuuming, dishes, laundry, auto/household repairs, sweeping, mopping, shopping, etc, and often. One thing I thought you could have included though, ws the command of God in Eph 5: 18, ff to men to submit to loving their wives as Christ loved the church.
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 02:41:13 PM |
Age 47, CO |
Well said Sister...
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 02:38:15 PM |
Age 47, CO |
Dr. Kobernik... I appreciate the sincerity or your post. However, the effectiveness of ones message (speaking of biblical messages) has nothing to do with the gender of the presenter. In fact, the idea of a female pastor teaching men stands in opposition to scripture regardless of the message (1 Tim 2:11-14, 1 Cor 14:35-36). The message of scripture finds it's power in the Author not the method or messenger. The messenger is consigned to rightly dividing the Word of Truth. So, to begind with, one needs to establish the scriptural basis for the teacher/presenter standing before the body. The effectiveness of the message, then, begins with being faithful, discerning, and wise in the handling of the Word. Aligning ourselves with the Word means embracing the WHOLE cousel of God, not just the parts which don't grate against modern sensibilities.
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word - Despite the stereotype, the Bible clearly bans male-headship-as-slavery
| Posted On: 03/06/07 02:16:40 PM |
Age 47, CO |
Let's not fall into the trap of "you firstism"... God's call on each of us (husband and wife) is INDEPENDANT of the others performance. In other words, the husband is commanded to love his wife as Christ loved the church regardless of her level of commitment or submission. Likewise, the wifes submission to her husband is commanded of her irrespective of his faithfulness in loving her. In short, a Christian's duties in ALL of their relationships (Husband/wife being one) are to be performed faithfully, as unto the Lord, independant of the performance of others. Husbands and wives who are seeking to walk faithfully before God will not be concerning themselves with the faithfulness of the other party BEFORE they are faithful. Rather, they will seek to be faithful IN SPITE OF the other party, entrusting themselves to the Faithfulness of Him whose they are.
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 02:00:42 PM |
Age 44, TX |
oooooops kirk is your brother...so sorry
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Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word - Despite the stereotype, the Bible clearly bans male-headship-as-slavery
| Posted On: 03/06/07 01:54:07 PM |
Age 20, VA |
I think one reason why many wives tend to shy away from Ephesians 5:22-24 is because throughout history, too many husbands (and often church leaders as well) have ignored Ephesians 5:25-33. Therefore, a discussion of female submission would be greatly helped by a parallel discussion of male sacrifice in order to keep things balanced and in perspective, as such husbandly behavior destroys the stereotype of Simon Legree male headship and restores the biblical loving relationship. Note that these verses are NOT merely satisfied by a husband claiming that he would die to save his wife should such a reliably unlikely situation arise, for Christ did not act as a dictator every day except Good Friday - he continually served and gave himself up for his church daily throughout his life. Husbands should not jut be willing to die for their wives, but to wash their feet.
In secular society, one's authority is directly correlated to how much one's own comfort/pleasure is prioritized. The king gets pretty much everything he wants, the duke gets most of what he wants, the freeman peasant gets some of what he wants, and the slave gets none of what he wants. This system makes sense from the world's selfish, fallen perspective, as the powerful use their power to benefit themselves at the expense of the weak.
In God's plan, the correlation is reversed: where self-sacrificing agape love, not selfishness, is the rule, the powerful use their power to benefit the weak at their own expense. Christ himself gave the ultimate example of this when he, omnipotent pantokrator, "did not come to be served, but to serve" (Matt. 20:28).
When applied to marriage, this principle of a comfort-authority negative correlation has strong implications. Since the authority structure is Husband->Wife->Children, the children's well-being should be protected first, then the wife's, then the husband's. This includes little things, not just life-threatening ones. For example, if a husband and wife are going to the movies and disagree about what to watch (and, for purposes of argument, compromises like taking turns are not an option), he should "give himself up for her" and watch the movie she wants - the exact opposite of the stereotype. A husband should never treat his wife in any way in which he would not want Christ to treat him.
In addition to following God's structure for authority, this system of marriage is by far the most practical. Let's face it, with a body of two, majoritarian systems won't work - everything that isn't unanimous (2-0) will be deadlocked (1-1). The biblical system of female submission and male sacrifice leads to a solution akin to the old last-piece-of-pie compromise: the husband divides the pie and then lets his wife take the larger piece. Even if men and women were identical (like the children with the pie are), this would be the fairest, most efficient system, and considering that this system also makes use of the sexes' differences (something which I do not have the space to discuss here), it is definitely the best solution to the dilemma of authority in a two-party marriage - provided both sides live up to their duties in it. If the child who divides the pie grabs the larger slice before the other has a chance to choose, the result is injustice, and can lead to the misconception that the original system that they were supposed to follow is unfair and make it unpalatable for those assigned to let the other do the dividing.
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 01:54:01 PM |
Age 47, CO |
The book's been written already. God's Word is sufficient. Our problem in NOT a lack of adequate instruction or direction from the Lord. Our problem is our refusal to believe God and obey what He's ALREADY written. If Christians will not submit to the inspired Word they already have, how can we expect scriptural submission to extra-biblical writings? As good as the article is, I'm certain that Candace would agree that she's merely seeking to echo the tenor of Scripture. The reality is this, Candaces article is only valid in it's premise because it is "Scriptural."
Let's focus on walking faithfully in the Spirit, according to the revealed Word. That's a lifes worth of work already for me...
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Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 01:39:16 PM |
Age 59, CA |
That's terrific! It is much more effective to have a woman than a man teach on this subject.
Just 2 months ago one of our pastors taught on the same subject. I have been a pastor and Christian leader in several denominations for 35 years, and never heard a more annointed message on this subject than this one by Deborah Cobrae of The Rock Church and World Outreach Center in San Bernardino, CA.
You can download it for free by clicking on http://www.rockchurchfamily.com/resources/archive.htm, downloading the set, Marriage God's Way, and then playing Part 2.
Rich Blessings from God on all who align their lives with God's word!
Dr. Steve Kobernik
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Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 01:34:37 PM |
Age 53, SD |
Submission doesn't mean that my husband arbitrarily makes decisions - we discuss and consider alternatives and talk about what is most important to each of us in any issue. That is because we both want to make right decisions and balance all of the related needs.
When we agree to disagree, he (like the Vice President in the House of Representatives) has the decision-making authority. I go along with those decisions (without contention) not because I trust my husband implicitly, but because I trust God implicitly. And, in our 27 years of marriage, there have been very few decisions where we didn't reach full agreement, because we love each other and want to please each other.
It is so incredibly important to select a marriage partner who can be trusted to hear from God.
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 12:47:15 PM |
Age 80, NC |
Christ was submissive to God The Father.That is all the comment thats needed.
Please don't take my word for it,just read;John 5;30,John6;38,Luke22;42,Mark 14;36 Matthew 26;39,42
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Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
| Posted On: 03/06/07 12:44:56 PM |
Age 42, TX |
Good article, but unfortunately most Christian women do not buy into this. They claim to submit and they may on occasion as a token gesture, but that is truly the exception and not the rule. In most cases men must allow themselves to be trampled just to keep the peace.
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