Re: Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 04/11/07 01:01:27 PM |
Age 26, NJ |
I haven't read Campolo's book, but I find most of Dr. Noebel's to be woefully misguided, if not misleading. I've just looked up Acts 5:1-4, which he cites as supporting private property. Are we reading the same passage? Peter chastises the guy for being greedy and deceitful in holding back a portion of his property. Noebel's dismissive "as if Marx and Marxists ever really cared about the poor and oppressed" is both offensive and ludicrous. Marx literally risked his life helping the oppressed workers in the 1848 revolutions. Engels spent an awful lot of time researching and writing a book documenting the horrid living and working conditions of the English working class, but I guess, to Noebel, that doesn't count as caring. I don't claim that any ideology "owns" Jesus Christ or that we lend uncritical support (or, in some cases, any) support to any and every leftist regime. Nevertheless, I'm proud to be a Christian Marxist. Noebel is himself claiming, in essence, that the right-wing evangelicals "own" Christ and Christianity. Fortunately, he and his ilk don't have the power to stop us.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 04/10/07 01:07:10 AM |
Age 39, AL |
Your conflation of being in favor of helping the least among us as Jesus instructs us to do with being a communist is simply ridiculous. FDR, the greatest of all American presidents IMHO was certainly no communist, but he also understood that results of laizzez faire economics (aka social Darwinism) could be just as pernicious as communism. We need labor laws that protect the health, safety, and welfare of workers. We need a higher minimum wage that allows everyone who works in our rich society to at least be able to make ends meet so that their children don't have to go to bed hungry. We need environmental laws that protect God's beautiful creation while ensuring that corporations don't poison our children in order to make a little bit of a higher profit for their shareholders. We also need a safety net for those who have fallen on hard times and those who can not help themselves. Advocating for these things does not make me a communist!
The vast majority of progressives in this country aren't advocating that all private property be confescated. Most progressives in this country are trying to prevent the destruction of what made this nation great, it's large middle class. Unfortunately, as corporations continue to obtain more legal rights and average folks continue to lose legal rights, the CEO's and major shareholders (i.e. those who own a large stake in the corporation and know when the stock is about to tank so that they can bail out like Ken Lay, Martha Stewart, ect.)are making out like bandits while the rest of us are dealing with stagnant wages and an ever increasing cost of living. There is nothing communistic about requiring employers to treat their employees fairly and to refrain from passing their costs of doing business (by polluting or by not paying for employee health insurance and relying the government to do so) to the taxpayer.
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Pointers...
| Posted On: 03/05/07 09:26:29 PM |
Age 19, MN |
Um, Dr. Noebel is not against helping the poor, the downtrodden, etc. That is why Christians are to be be willing to share and help (note that this is not the GOVERNMENT, but the church and the individuals helping out) Dr. Noebel did define capitalism (look towards the bottom of the article). Incidentally, a recent book came out that stated basically that the religious (Christian) people (particularily the 'conservative' part) give more money to the poor by an large factor compared to so-called "irreligious" people. The is despite the fact that the religious people make less money on average than their counterparts. The other problem with Campolo (not really addressed in this article) is his promotion of "Open-Theism"; which basically denies that God is all-powerful, all-knowing etc. Please understand that socialism (govt. controlling the economy and redistributing wealth) is not the same thing as charity/sharing. Charity/sharing is something that is done voluntarily, socialism is not done voluntarily. If the church is helping the poor, that's great, because in addition to physical needs, spiritual needs can also be provided. The govt. cannot supply this. Anyway, have a great day and God Bless!!
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/04/07 10:43:15 PM |
Age 55, FL |
We do need to do something about the poor and the oppressed. We need to do what the Bible says to do James 2:14-14 tWhat does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 uIf a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and vone of you says to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
The New King James Version. 1982 (Jas 2:14). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Isaiah 58:6-10 6 Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To hloose the bonds of wickedness,
iTo undo the 3heavy burdens,
jTo let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
7 Is it not kto share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are 4cast out;
lWhen you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from myour own flesh?
8 nThen your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
oThe glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, Here I am.
If you take away the yoke from your midst,
The 5pointing of the finger, and pspeaking wickedness,
10 If you extend your soul to the hungry
And satisfy the afflicted soul,
Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,
And your 6darkness shall be as the noonday.
The New King James Version. 1982 (Is 58:6). Nashville: Thomas Nelson. Yes we are to preach the Gospel but we also have to help those who are in need. We are a blessed nation but we are too busy pointing fingers. If you want to point fingers, how about Sky Angel, a Christian Satellite Station that brag how christian they are and yet they allow wicked things to be shown such as cursing, GOD'S NAME in vain, a show that designs according to the Zodiac, an abomination to GOD, and paranormal programs. Though I and others have complained about it they do nothing about it because of lukewarm christans that like these programs. Take action with them before you start criticising Christians that want to take action to help the poor and the oppressed. We also want to tell the unsaved how to live and yet the majority of us don't want to be loving examples to them. They need to be reached and we need to share and show the Gospel of YESHUA HAMASHIAC.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/04/07 06:28:39 PM |
Age 31, MA |
Saddening. Disgusting. Uninformed. Unbiblical. Myopic. This article does nothing other than simply exhibit the all-to-familiar demonization and mystification that parades as editorializing in carnaval of fundementalist America. A consistent application of this guys argument stigmatizes the early church itself. Here is a couple of facts for all us good godly Americans to chew on:
1) there is a long tradition of critism of Stalinism and orthodox Marxism within the socialist tradition itself.
2) Socialist see their ideas as an extension of, and a practice, of democracy. Social democracy is an entirely other animal than Stalinism, or any other dictatorial regime (include G.W. Bush and the Corperatocracy called the USA).
3) The state capitalism we currently function under is as imperialist and violent as Soviet Marxism to those in the third world. I challenge you to read the dissent, read independent media, get a global perspective!
Thank God for people like Wallis, Sider, and Campollo, who actually take the gospel seriously. This guy is demonizing people who are trying to live the faith, instead of shouting slogans in those incestuous slums that used to be called church.
The rhetorical strategy this guy employs associating socially minded Evangelicals with Mein Kampf, and other obvious non-sense is despicable, not scholarly or fair and generally uninformed about the actual content of Campolloss beliefs, let alone the Nazis. If he were, he would probably find the current Constantian imperial theocracy is far closer to fascism than left Evangelicalism thats concerned with the poor. Go read your Bible! The measure of true religion: that you attend the widow and orphans. Hypocrites! You espouse a form of godliness but deny its power. Repent!
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Re: Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/03/07 11:29:36 AM |
Age 44, PA |
Nice balanced view. Full blown capitalism will devour us just as fast as full blown Communisism. I don't care for Campolo, but I do see the heartlessness in the Body of Christ when covetetness (capitalism) is overemphesized and the poor are neglected. I would feel more comfortable giving my money to the poor through the government if I didn't realize that most will be stolen by the government. However, greed has placed healthcare out of reach of many middleclass people and the number grows every day. I truley believe that too much participation with government is what Jesus called the leven of Herod.
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Re: Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 11:09:40 PM |
Age 41, VA |
Socialists worship and rely upon the state but that false god will be put down in God's good time. It will be interesting to see Europe in 50 to 75 years after the Muslims have taken over those weak, decadent AND anti-Christian socialist societies. I wonder how Europe will rank in "quality of life" issues then? God never allows rebellion and wickedness of any kind to unpunished forever no matter which end of the political spectrum you choose to swing from.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 09:48:12 PM |
Age 47, CA |
Excellent article but also heartbreaking. How many people will be lead astray from the pure and peaceable Word of God by Campolo and others like him?
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I hear you...
| Posted On: 03/02/07 08:28:25 PM |
Age 19, MN |
...but understand that being a disciple of Christ means following Him and His Word, the Bible. Probe.org has a great article articulating the reason for a biblical view in economics, which, I think correctly, argues that private property, distribution of economic power, etc. is a good, biblical thing. Now, as far as Acts is concerned, the difference between socialism (private property being abolished, economy being centralized, and the wealth being redistributed to help the poor, except often at their own expense) and sharing/charity (giving from one's OWN pocket to help out, like what churches do at say, Union Gospel Mission, like the one down in my state's capitol) is that the church people voluntarily gave their own possessions and willingly shared. We have no problem with this (in fact, a recent book by a well known person indicated that religious conservatives give more in America than those who are not religious, even though they often make less money). Anyway, also keep in mind that whoever has the money and the guns has control...and if it's under the control a few people (no matter what worldview they hold), it can be dangerous. That is the problem of socialism, the power residing in a few people. It works in theory if you assume man is basically good by nature, but if man isn't good by nature....well that changes the whole equation. Have a great day and God Bless!!
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Quick pointer...
| Posted On: 03/02/07 08:04:24 PM |
Age 19, MN |
Captitalism, according to Dr. Noebel (I've heard him use this definition)is the "free exchange of goods and services". Now, the issue to keep in mind is that capitalism allows greater distribution of wealth since it creates competition to try and sell their things at a higher quality/cheaper price level. Was Jesus a capitalist, you ask? Well...in one sense yes, he was. Socialism (to it's core) is the govt. having all the economic power, including money, property, etc. Charity is, by far, more difficult to accomplish when the govt. has all the money. It is far easier in a capitalistic society, where the economic power is distributed, to do that from a purely physical standpoint. Now, don't get me wrong, I think we're probably both on the same page, so I'll just state that I don't think that Dr. Noebel is trying to promote capitalism over giving/charity. I think what he's trying to show is that since we are to bring our worldview to bear in the culture (just like anyone, including atheists, New Agers, etc.), that includes having a proper biblical worldview in economics, which is, of course, heavily under attack in today's intellectual and media power cirlces (on the whole). And Dr. Noebel has to show why capitalism is far more biblical than socialism to Christians, since there are Christians (or those who claim to be Christians), such as Tony Campolo, who promote socialism. Have a great day and God Bless!!
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Re: Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 04:24:16 PM |
Age 70, MN |
My Youthgroup back in highschool made trips to Winnona Lake, Ind. to attend the annual Youth For Christ International summer week-long meetings. Most of the leaders of todays evangelical and mission groups were speakers. Tony Compolo was one of them and at that time, he seemed true to AUTHENIC EVANGELICALISM. He seemed like a strong sold-out-to-Christ man of God who faithfully used the Word of God to win many young people to Christ and inspire many of us to dedicate our lives to follow Christ. Obviously and sadly, he has "left his first love". Exactly, how it happened we don't know but this should be a warning to us all to stay close to the Lord, or we too could be enticed away and follow another Christ. World History is our school-master regarding Communisim. The Bible doesn't advocate it for us to follow today. Also, I can site our former Church Moderator who worked with me to invite a well known marriage seminar speaker, several Creation speakers, etc., to teach at our church while all the time he was seeing other women and later divorced his wife. Today, he denies that t the Bible is truth, and questioned his grandaughter about did she really believe the "myth" about Jonah and the fish?
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 03:37:36 PM |
Age 31, MO |
Noebel only addresses what most thinking people already know, the falacy of Marxist and Communist economic and political thought. He points out that Campolo is sadly mistaken, and is leading young Christians astray. But is this the deepest danger in Campolo's agenda? Isn't it instead the luring of hearts away from a focus on and discovery of Jesus Himself? Yes, Sider and Campolo are wrong about the technical details involved in bringing relief to the poor and oppressed. But far more worse, they're wrong about what our relationship with Jesus is all about, wrong about His calling on our lives, wrong about what is most important to carry in our hearts to that last-day encounter at the throne of God. I read the article title with interest, but the article itself with growing disappointment. Unless such issues are approached from the point of view of a lover-of-Jesus, and not from a I've-got-the-right-economic-theology stance, all our time is wasted. Unless relationship with Jesus is the core and purpose of the heart, a conservative evangelical thinker is just as lost and pointless as a marxist-liberation-theology proponent. Take heed to the heart, not the methods.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 03:32:13 PM |
Age 19, MN |
My gosh people. Those who say that Dr. Noebel should have identified what capitalism and socialism have learned nothing from history and probably didn't even read the whole essay. He did identify what socialism and capitalism is. Second of all, Jesus did say that we should sell all that we have and follow him, but guess what, how can we help the poor if we do that. He was saying that to his disciples when he was alive, if they were to go with him, it was to learn from him. Then you must also understand why the early Christians had to pull their resources together: because of the persecution from the Roman Empire! Keep things in their historical and social context. Americans are the most generous people in the world. We have given billions of dollars to help feed Africa and fight AIDS. We gave aid to tsunami victims. Yes both economic systems are fallen, but, to quote Winston Churchill: The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
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Re: Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 03:32:02 PM |
Age 59, IL |
Dear age 59, KS; Please forgive me, my friend... but it pains me to tell you that you are missing the main point that causes most of us here on the right to do battle against the beliefs of the left. That is that "way too many of the ideas from the left wind up hurting the very people that they are intended to help". If it was just a matter of differing oppinions of how to get things done... then I would totally agree with you. Tragically, it is ABSOLUTELY not. In Him, scott.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 10:53:35 AM |
Age 59, KS |
I don't know where to begin but first I wish everyone would stop using right wing and left wing labels. Ideas are either good or bad and to put other labels on them shortens the debate to a point of nonsense.
Then I might ask.....was Jesus a capitalist? "Sell everything and follow me" seems a familiar refrain. Are the wealthy oil companies concerned about the poor of the world? Or, how about the market speculators who make a fortune on the uptic of gasoline and oil prices? Do they care about the 60 year old woman who works for minimum wage? Would Jesus care about her?
Our great nation tried to seek a balance at one time. One where good Christians shared the Gospel but also tried to live the Gospel.
Now, for some reason, there is polarization at the Christian level. Right wing Christians vs. Left wing Christians. Something has gone awry here, don't you think?
There will always be poor in ours and all other societies. There will be the old and the sick. There will also be the wealthy and all the in-betweens. God's Love as spelled out in the New Testament is the only answer to all our problems.
I have noticed that very wealthy people are often concerned about having to share their wealth. Nobody gets wealthy in a vacuum. Well, maybe those who inherit it but not those who actually accumlated it. It's only money and one thing for sure....nobody will take the wealth with them when they die.
I'm all for capitalism and wealth creation but I'm also for realizing that with wealth comes even more responsibility for society. Job creation is one avenue for the wealthy to share. Probably the best one too.
Some folks want to fit the Gospels into their way of thinking. I've only realized one message from them...."For God so Loved the world........" What did Christ say about the greatest of all commandments....Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself? Hmmm!
Is it all that difficult?
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 10:46:06 AM |
Age 47, WA |
Great editorial!
Liberals like Campolo just love to feel good about themselves at the expense of others. Raising taxes in order to fund their wealth redistribution schemes makes them feel like they are doing something about poverty but in reality, accomplishes nothing but increasing it.
Strange, but I don't remember Jesus saying anything about starting a government program to feed the poor. I do remember him instructing US to do so. And by the way, I also remember the admonishment stating that "if you don't work, you don't eat."
Socialism is the Devil's religion. Campolo is his bishop.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 09:14:05 AM |
Age 42, MN |
Thank you Dr. Nobel! Jim Wallis spoke at Bethel College/Seminary last fall and got a standing ovation from the students and it was reported as more of an "alter call" to join his movement. Our Christian youth are being very deceived by this group and I deeply thank you for alerting us parents to what our children are being exposed to. I appreciated your facts and quotes linking them to communism. It is a very helpful article to pass on to students I know at Bethel.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 08:45:11 AM |
Age 38, IL |
I can only say I'm not surprised. I am often lured in by good article titles only to find myopic rants. What Dr. Noebel fails to own is that all of the examples he uses to show the evils of socialism come from ATHIESTIC communist (if not Totalitarian) regimes. I don't think Godless capitalism would yield (or is yielding) any better results. He also fails to define the terms capitalism and socialism in order to look intelligently about the pro's and con's of both man-made, fallen economic systems. Such an inquirey might point to the need for redeemed people to use thier wealth to help others in need (See Matthew 23 and Acts 2). The goals or socialism are consistent with the teaching of Jesus and the behavior of the early church. The mechanisms of socialist government have failed miserably. Free market capitalism seems to do a much better job at building wealth and motivating individual workers. However, the "least of these" often get lost in the dust. That happens when personal wealth is the highest goal. I don't think Jesus would say an economic system that survives on greed is a great way to go. At the same time, an economic system that survives on forced charity is not too helpful either. How about voluntary socialism within a free market economy. i.e. God's people selling all that they have, giving to the poor and following Jesus? The jab against Wallis' commune and holding everything in common is a jab at the early church itself. Can we please get off the agendas and have an intelligent conversation instead of pandering to a constituency you want to sell books to?
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 07:25:15 AM |
Age 54, WV |
If Compolo believes that God is for the "oppressed and poor" but is against the "strong and powerful," how will God deal with the "oppressed and poor" when they become the "strong and powerful?"
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APOSTLES OF ANTICHRIST
| Posted On: 03/02/07 03:37:23 AM |
Age 51, OH |
I can't believe David Noebel referred to Tony Campolo as a "Christian Evangelist", in light of what he himself reported!
A few years ago, I personally attended a Campolo lecture at Regent University in Virginia Beach, where Campolo said, and I quote: "Jesus Christ IS THE DARK SIDE OF HUMANITY". I still have a tape recording of that lecture.
Jesus Christ, in Revelation 2:2, praised the Ephesian church, saying, "[T]hou canst not beat them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars[....]"
Campolo does have a gospel that he preaches, but it doesn't come from above.
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