Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 10:39:48 AM |
Age 44, CA |
We started a small home gathering on Father's Day this year to try and get back to an Acts-like gathering. Like many problems in the church as a whole, the greed for money, not money itself is a problem. The 501-c3 is not really the issue, greed is. The tax exemption can actually help true believers to give more to their church than they would without a tax exemption. That can be the pure motive. I also see some who won't give otherwise, which is the sad part.
Our goal is to have only believer's in fellowship; however twice, believing guests have "messed up" and brought two unbelievers. What did we do? We took a detour from programs and procedure and lead both to faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their "Lord" and "Savior". I am sure a few that came to the Acts churches got saved there as well, but agree our job as a church is to build the believers so we can then go out to "seek and save" the lost, so our church is called "Minister Where You Are" and among our teaching we actually teach our folks to minister where they are, be able to defend their faith, and preach the gospel. Our church/ministry is involved as a primary goal to support our evangelism outreaches at fairs, festivals, carnivals and where people are in their daily lives, always carry tracts with us in the event the Lord grants an opportunity to witness. I thank Ray Comfort for his influence and God inspired teaching, along with FAITH from the SBC, and Bill Fay's teaching as well.
If your Pastor's and elder's focus is Christ likeness, they and the church will love the Lord with all their heart, mind, strength, and spirit; and their neighbor as themselves: that church will naturally be ministering to the lost, because focus will be off of self and greed.
The key isn't "tax staus" it is "heart status" for the churches, starting with their leaders. The church will likely follow the lead of the leaders. If they don't reach out to the lost, their congregations probably won't see the urgency either.
Jack Jackson http://ministerwhereyouare.org
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 10:26:18 AM |
Age 54, IN |
I appreciate this article in that it zeros in on the obsession of churches to emulate business. I own a business but I am more interested in my business and personal life emulating Christ than I am seeing my church emulate my business. Many church leaders recruit successful business men regardless of their spiritual condition or obedience to God's word. When I recently asked a music director at a new mega church how things were going his first response was "giving is down", not "people are being saved from destruction and given the hope of eternal life." I think many churches have the same sad measuring stick. This 501C status thing has the church hamstrung to do what God has called us to do.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 10:08:10 AM |
Age 43, MI |
Brother Ray,
I would have you know(according to an estimate by a rather well known leader in today's christiandom)that somewhere between 50,000 and 70,000 people are leaving organized religion every week worldwide. It has been assumed wrongly by many of today's guru type leaders that this encompasses the great falling away of the faith. Despite the likelihood of some of these individuals doing just that, most are discovering by the grace of God just what He has always intended for HIS CHURCH. They are leaving precisely due to God's calling them to leave and come unto HIM.
I have always known something was desperately wrong with today's "churches" and discovered what that was some years ago. Just a cursory study between what the Bible teaches as a new testament assembly and what people call "church" today are almost complete opposites. Every year new ministries or movements attempt to revive the church (people) with little or no success. This includes everything from para church groups, books such as Prayer of Jabez to movies like the Passion. From WWJD? to Promise Keepers to Seeker Sensitive or Purpose Driven- NONE of these are God's solution to spiritual growth or maturity. There is one place only and that is through the Church He is building. The gates of hell are not only infiltrating mans church but overriding it. This of course cannot be true for God's Church which will stand and advance. It always has been. How little do His people really have eyes to see.
Due to the world taking over mans "church" it will change and become much opposed to God. And contrary to most peoples understanding, this is a good thing. In fact, God Himself is orchestating it.
God's children know and are known by Him. They follow not a mans direction, a "churches" ideas or a pastors vision. THEY FOLLOW HIM! Praise God that His Church has and will always be faithful. It is for these He truly gave Himself as a friend- for those who model not the status quo of mans religion but the narrow road that sent Jesus Himself to a cross due to His rejection of the methodologies and motives of religious men of His day. Nothing's changed. Were Jesus here today, He would no doubt be highly irate at what man has done and no doubt remind them of the obvious: MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD!
The sooner men stop attempting to build with bricks what only Jesus can do, the sooner we'll all be established and our Lord return.
I'll pray for you as well as those in the system that had the courage to post your article.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 10:04:02 AM |
Age 56, TX |
FINALLY! someone is ACTUALLY getting it! When
God's 'church' begins to stop 'bowing to other gods' such as governments, politics, and being 'respectors' of men, THEN and ONLY then will the TRUE CHURCH OF GOD - HIS BRIDE start preparation for 'HER' glorious wedding and HE (CHRIST) will return. THANKS FOR YOUR WILLINGNESS TO BOLDLY SPEAK THE TRUTH!
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Focus
| Posted On: 02/07/07 09:50:09 AM |
Age 23, OH |
The question of issue is who runs the church; if Christ then submit.
The issue we're seeing in the church is an effect which is seen as greed, poor management, pride, in-fighting, etc..
The cause of the effect is that we don't truly believe that in turning our eyes upon Jesus that the things of this world will grow strangely dim.
Simply put, let us concern ourselves with what God is concerned and not speak for God saying our concerns are His.
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 09:23:07 AM |
Age 75, LA |
Just a word about the statement .." no more boring sermons " ..If the sermon comes from God's Holy Word and is taught in context , there are no boring sermons ..Almighty God is not a boring subject to a believer ...worship is understanding God's Word and responding to it ...There is no worship of God ( the God of Abraham , Issac and Jacob and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ) apart from the true study of His glorious Word ...
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 09:09:59 AM |
Age 60, MO |
I see that you are old enough (66) to have some sense about this matter. :-)
George J. Cancilla
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 08:53:26 AM |
Age 27, SA |
I don't live in America so I can offer a more onjective view : and that is, from my viewpoint, most American churches DO run as corporations, with the pastor being the 'founding member and CEO' of the church. Their meetings look more like slick corporate presentations and entertainment than family gatherings. Yes, the Bible does present a proper model for running a church and it's not this way. It's model is much more simple, much more authentic, and much more difficult when it comes to making money. That is, it presents RELATIONSHIP as the first basis of church - a church is a community of believers, called out people who are with one purpose and mind - to bring the gospel to all the nations. If I was on the eldership TEAM of an American church (there's another clue: the Bible is about Team, not about one man shows), and this 501-c3 status was standing in the way of forming a church in the proper biblical way then YES, I would drop it and rather pay the expensive tax. After all, give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's.
If you read ACTS very closely, and some of the NT, you find that God has given us the exact model and way in which we 'run' church. Organic, relationship-driven, scripture loving, people loving, called out PEOPLE who form a community to encourage each other and teach and edify each other in the mission of bringing in the lost. Mega-CEO-church's are not God's way, and I don't feel arrogant by saying that. It's obviously not the Biblical way.
Great Article, Ray! I really enjoyed it. I disagree about preaching being about politics, but we should certainly be able to discuss politics within our community, amongst ourselves, rather than using the preaching for that. Besides, if the church really functions as a community, preaching is to bring in the lost more than it is to teach the saints. Bible study and smaller groups would be for teaching IMHO :)
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 08:40:05 AM |
Age 61, MA |
The fraud that is,is the institutional Church (which Ben Franklin hated). Yes,it is a buisness, because it is run like a buisness. The Biblical way to change this is to change the law alloweing our men of God to have eletions sermons again. Which where the longest running sermon since 1633-1950? Every election had a sermon by the Pastor before people would vote it was stopped by LBJ round 1950. Christian need to be re-educated on the founding of America,because the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court have misinterpreted the US Constitution along the way.
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 08:30:45 AM |
Age 51, AR |
Hello-
The New Testament is very clear on how we are to live if we have ears to hear. I did a teen event several summers ago. One of the study sheets had the kids read 1 Cor 6:9-10 which includes "Be not deceived: neither fornicators..shall inherit the kingdom of God." Then the teens had to answer the question, "what did Paul say fornicators would not inherit?" One of the best kids came up to me and asked - "do you mean a Christian or someone who isn't a Christian?" You see, the kid thought the doctrine of his church (everyone who repeats a salvation prayer is saved and then there's no way they can lose their salvation) trumped the clear teaching of the Bible.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 08:16:01 AM |
Age 62, CT |
In God's order of creation, the creature is to worship the Creator. Who or what is the creator of a 501C3 corporation/organization? So the creation worships its creator.
Regarding taxes - who needs tax exemption?
Thirty years ago I heard a lecture on the subject of taxes. It was the speakers opinion and urging that: "If your minister isn't preaching tax revolt - you're in the wrong church. Get out!"
Interesting thought.
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Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 07:58:17 AM |
Age 29, TX |
"Even if a church was not looking for the 501c3 they would still have to incorporate in order ot operate legally in the US, open business checking accounts etc."
Openning a checking account is not synonymous with becoming incorporated. A church may remain officially unincorporated and operate legally. Besides, the existance of the church is not based on whether it is leagl or not. Even if a country outlawed churches (the assembly of those committed to christ)the church would still have to continue because our authority is Christ and the commission he has given the church until He comes.
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 07:35:27 AM |
Age 41, NM |
According to Acts chapter the believer devoted themselves to four things. The Apostle's Teaching, Prayer, Fellowship andthe Breaking of Bread. After doing so the Fear of the Lord came upon them all. Later Fear was expanded in chapter 5 when Ananias and Sapphira were struck down by the Holy Spirit for lying. Right after that there is an interesting statement beginning with Acts 5:12 - Meanwhile the apostles were performing many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And the believerswere meeting regularly...NO ONE ELSE DARED TO JOIN THEM, THough everyone held them in high regard.
The biblical forms does seem to include teaching (Paul instructed pastor Timothy to Preach the Word), corporate prayer, Fellowship and taking communion.
And the services seem to only include believer, but not because the church excluded them.
Note: Evidently the apostle's message was not evangelistic. The people went out and won people to the Lord. Once they became believer, they joined the fellowship. Now we seem to expect the pastor to do the evangelizing, so we can sit in our pews and do nothing to advance the kingdom.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 07:26:41 AM |
Age 39, MO |
Great article. I agree but in most cities and towns small churches would fold if they had to pay taxes on the buildings and such. Maybe we should go back to meeting in homes? I praise the Lord my pastor still preaches political issues , but we live in a small town. Keep up the work of challanging believers!
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 07:17:02 AM |
Age 41, NM |
Yeah...no politics until someone comes who disagrees with you. No in crowd, because the out crowd won't come. No building fund raisers and hey cool...no tithing either. No boring sermons because there's no obedience to Paul's exortation to Timothy that he Preach the Word.
Oh, and a few more things: No submission to spiritual leaders God placed over you, because there are none. Usually no impact on the world around (though not always the case). And certainly no lack of pride!
Yes the institutional church has its issues, and you may have eliminated some, but in so doing you've created others.
My experience with home churches are that they are often filled with rebellious people who won't listen to anybody and they have a cancer of offense against those they used to be under, are filled with pride and they take separation to mean exclusion. But maybe my view is a small sampling.
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 05:16:59 AM |
Age 39, OH |
Yes, yes, yes. What is being called "church" IS a fraud. It has gone on so long that people aren't capable of seeing it for what it is.
It's hideous to think of all the money, falsely so-called as those pieces of paper are Federal Reserve Notes and not real dollars, of all the "money" solicited and spent on club houses both large and small. And then those club houses have to be supported with more "money". And then they must be enlarged and made more luxurious, with gyms and coffee houses and "prayer towers". It gags me.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/06/07 02:57:51 PM |
Age 42, CA |
the 501-c is not a requirement for Churches to be tax exempt for the Federal Goverment or for the people that are giving their offering or tithes to the church to use these donations for a deduction on thier taxes. If they choose to. The Church is automaticly covered under the Feberal laws. The 501-c is just an easy way to cover themselves in-case they get audited. The churches actually the pastors, and us as christians need to stand up against the enemy and fight for G-D's truth and his spoken Word. Not only are the churches looking more like the worlds non-profits they are saying the same thing. Live a good life be nice to others. Obey the Golden rule. Nothing about repentance and changing thier lives to be more like Christ. I think the business men need to stop being elders and leaders in the church and let the men who fear G-D start leading. If they happen to be the business men Praise the Lord.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/06/07 11:48:35 AM |
Age 44, PA |
Wow, you are soooooo close to discovering the fraud that is the institutional Church. Yes, is it a buisness, because it is run like a buisness. The institution is incorperated, has a CEO (pastor), board of directors, budget, building programs, fund raising campaigns, many even leave the $$$ biz to their childern, the only thing missing are stock holders. Even the best institution fall way short of the Biblical way of gathering, and yes it's "only" for believers.
The only problem I have with your article is the preaching from the pulpit. First preaching was mainly to the unbelievers for salvation. Most preachers would cower if they had to go out in the street and preach to the heathen. The pulpit was invented by sinfull men to elevate the oratory skill of the unbiblical clergy (see meaning of Nicolatian which Jesus says he hates).
You are comming to an understanding that many around the world have come to understand and that is the protestant "church" system is only one step away from Rome and Rome is only one step from Babylon.
My wife and I meet at home with other believers and "all" minister to all, every joint supplying for the edification of the whole body, no politics, no in crowd, no building fund raisers, and no boring sermons!!!!!!
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/06/07 10:39:50 AM |
Age 27, IL |
Good stuff Ray,
"Organizing" a move of God just won't work if we are to please God. Not that we should be disorderly, only we ought not sale our soul for a business model... Good stuff.
sabe
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/06/07 09:36:09 AM |
Age 38, MN |
Comparing the organization of 21st Americian churches to the first century is like comparing apples and oranges. Even if a church was not looking for the 501c3 they would still have to incorporate in order ot operate legally in the US, open business checking accounts etc. Also maybe churches aren't preaching about politics not because they are being bullied in that direction by the IRS and other groups, but because the pulpit is not the appropriate forum. In that situation it isnt what people come to church for, and it quickly becomes a bully pulpit, were the preacher shoves his political opnion down the congragations throat, whether they want to hear it or not. I have walked out of sermons that did that because the preacher was screaming bloody murder at the top of his lungs on the issue at hand, instead of feeding us with the Bread of life. The corporate worship service is not the best forum to talk about political matters. But in forums, meetings or even using the adult Bible class hour where it can be a dialogue instead of a monologue.
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