501c3
| Posted On: 03/12/08 03:33:15 PM |
Age 42, AZ |
I don't know if this is the place to ask this question but I need advice on how to file for taxes next year. I wiil not file for a 501c3 because I feel it's not the Godly thing to do. I have a Television Ministry I'm airing and people are starting to send donations. I don't know how to file tax wise and it's starting to bother me it's even an issue when God is the one that gave me the money for outreach. Can someone help on what I file next year.
Thank You
Veronica
City of Refuge Ministries
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Coincidence?
| Posted On: 02/12/08 02:24:31 PM |
Age 42, NC |
Great article! Many of the observations listed in the article are thoughts I have had in the past.
I have attended a new church in the area called C3. It is a church far different then what I am used to. The music ministry is more contemporary with loud drums, electric guitars and loud singing. It is more like a rock concert every Sunday.
Now this church has two services on Sunday and regularly have about 2000 in attendance in each service. I have never experienced this.
Since this was new to me, I tried to keep an open mind. Everyone seemed to enjoying themselves. But something seemed to be missing.
The weekly 'sermons', if you want to call them that, did not have much meat on them. I have heard the term 'candy-coated', and now I know what that means.
It is OK to have a good time at church, but there must be reverence first. Even communion is given as an afterthought.
Then, on top of that, they are always trying to sell you something.
I then stumbled across this article, and noticed the name of the statute that gives the Church the tax exmempt status, 501-C3.
Then I thought about it. The name of the church is called C3! Now I am sure they will say that C3 stands for something else, but to me, there is too much of a coincidence.
I Googled C3 and came up with at least four churches that call themselves, C3. And they all seemed to have the same format.
Then I questioned, is the reason they named their church C3 because that was there sole reason for opening up a tax exempt 'business'? There focus seemed to be more on money than GOd.
Yes, it seems they have found a Church Business model that has proven to bring in the flock, and therefore the tithing. They keep the messages short, and simple, and keep the demands on the congregation low, so they will keep coming back.
I find myself believing that they have found a way to Franchise religion, and they are more than willing to 'plant' more franchises where ever they can turn a 'profit'.
Since this was new to me, I tried to keep an open mind. Everyone seemed to enjoying themselves. But something seemed to be missing.
The weekly 'sermons', if you want to call them that, did not have much meat on them. I have heard the term 'candy-coated', and now I know what that means.
It is OK to have a good time at church, but there must be reverence first. Even communion is given as an afterthought.
Then, on top of that, they are always trying to sell you something.
I then stumbled across this article, and noticed the
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 06/29/07 04:58:46 PM |
Age 50, TN |
A friend directed me to your article. Thanks for your willingness to broach this subject. I've been writing and publishing on this very issue for years. I've found that it's been a rather touchy subject to address with many pastors.
The problem, however, goes far above and beyond merely the 501c3. It really begins with the "corporate mindset" that occurs when churches organize as corporations, rather than as churches. It sets up the entire corporate infrastructure and everything that goes along with it.
Unfortunately, once the infrastructure is in place it's not so easy to convince church leaders to dismantle it and operate as "just a church." It's much easier for me to deal with legally than it is for many pastors to deal with emotionally. However, for those who are willing there are solutions.
Heal Our Land Ministries
http://hushmoney.org
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 06/19/07 12:45:20 AM |
Age 43, MO |
Well said my friend.
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 06/03/07 11:24:26 AM |
Age 38, TX |
Great comments from everyone. What has been said is not condemnation, but rather sounding the alarm. Bringing things to the attention of God's people. If this is wrong, then Jesus was wrong when He warned the people about the pharises or Paul was wrong for warning us about the false prophets and others.
I am a young pastor and I did not want to be bothered with 501(c)3filing. I was doing some research on this very same subject and issue, and the Lord led by here. God is Good!
But I know of other Young pastors who have been led to believe that if they are going to start a church, the should or must file as non-profit. The Lord has told be to stay away form this. For one, I did not want to have strings attached to the government, and two, Paul did say pay your taxes.
I was a Deacon once. I could tell you some stories, but I'll just close with this.
The bible tells us to, "Do not let you good be evil spoken of." With this in mind, I chose to stay away from 501(c)3 status.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/13/07 12:24:02 PM |
Age 48, OH |
As an employee of our local YMCA, I take issue with one point. It needs to be clear that the YMCA is NOT supposed to be a church. It's ministry is meant to reach out beyond the Biblical limits placed upon the "ekklesia," the called-out body of believers.
In other words: Let us please have the honesty to properly differentiate between a "church" and an outreach, based on Christian principles, to anyone who wants to participate. Some Y's (including ours) have chaplains, who refer unchurched people to churches. That is the proper province of YMCA's - not to serve as a church, but to support Christian principles and standards of behavior.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/12/07 07:00:03 AM |
Age 33, IN |
Amen...Brothers and Sisters, do not be found asleep when the master of the house returns. The church of today (the buildings called Life Centers) ARE ASLEEP. Ask your heavenly Father to open your eyes and heart to the truth... The modern church does not honour God it honours man. Ask your leaders to explain exactly what Jesus commanded us to do? They'll tell you all sorts of half truths, but they won't tell you the simple truth. Repent and Believe for the Kingdom of God is near. We are to tell them about Jesus. We're not to win souls through battle and strife. By attending one of the Life Centers in America, like the YMCA, you have become distracted and therefore fallen asleep. Every one of these corporations offer programs for finances, mission trips, social events...etc. None of them will tell you exactly what Jesus asked us to do. Read the bible and understand the simply truth of his message.
For those few who understand this article, fear not for these things must be before the return of our master. Be not afraid for this is the Apostasy.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/11/07 01:03:53 PM |
Age 37, OR |
I completely agree with this article. I think Pastors who realize the dangerous truth about being yoked with the 501c3 need to ask for God's forgiveness and help. God will protect them as He protected Joshua and the Israelites when they were deceived into making a covenant with the Gibeonites. The remant church is present within the 501-c3 church bodies, but sadly so are many who are deceived into believing they are born again. As Daniel remained a witness being part of the Babylonian system so we must continue to be a witness to this dying world and if that means one day our own government or church is going to punish us for speaking the truth from God's word, then we need not fear as God will be with us in the fire. Pastors and churches who are caving in because of fear or deception need our prayers and we need to share this truth to them in love. Everything we do has to be in love.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/08/07 07:31:01 AM |
Age 56, TX |
well...after reading much FEEDBACK on this article - it looks like it touched a nerve!
PRAISE GOD! Christians are SUPPOSED to 'stir ourselves up' in the word of our testimonies about GODS' GOODNESS AND HIS MIGHTY DEEDS in our lives, to be the 'witness' for HIM and the Kingdom of Heaven. HOWEVER, it sounds like many of YOU readers 'think' there is such a thing as a 'PERFECT CHURCH'. Let me remind you, that as soon as you think you have found one (church that is perfect), IF YOU begin to go there - THEN IT WON'T BE PERFECT ANYMORE! Remember, 'whatsoever a man sows, that and that ONLY shall he reap! We are instructed to pray for our leaders (pastors, elders, instructors, etc.), NOT to condemn them. Also, my bible still says: "to give a 'brother' an extra amount of grace as a brother/sister offended is harder to be won back over than an entire city".
BE BLESSED!! - SO, YOU CAN BE A BLESSING TO OTHERS!!!
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 09:12:15 PM |
Age 63, OR |
Excellent observations. First hand experience, obviously.
Even the smallest of "apostolic" churches(Acts church founders of first century) had, and now have, the same problems.
A small church fellowship I attend (only about 50+ active attendees) has three "paid" elders and most do not teach (a Biblical requirement of elder qualification). Even if a member donates an offering for a specific use, the elders choose to distribute the way they want...not as the giver specifies.
Whether large or small, most churches allow "cliques" to form and avoid the Matthew approach to dealing with problems - hence it takes a public expose of sexual deviancy before Ted Haggard's church board did anything to confront his sin; and he's just one amongst many sinning in the pulpit.
A likely reason whay churches are run as a corporation or business is because many pastors jump from corporate America and implement church growth, worldly programs, fund raisers, etc. based on what the skills they brought with them from their former secular jobs.
Your mention of a church having "unsaved members" is astonishing yet easily understood. There's more focus on getting visitors into a church member program than discerning whether they are actually saved or not. I know because I stopped attending an evening study group at one church which used the group as a catalyst to raise up church elders and leaders...but the teaching elder invited known unsaved new church attendees to the group. Mixing a little leven in the loaf spoils the whole lump!
Church today has become little more than a socialistic country club atmostphere of fun seekers - not God seekers!
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Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 07:50:37 PM |
Age 62, CT |
Speaking of election sermons - what we need is something like this:
"Unlimited submission and obedience is due to none but God alone. He has an absolute right to command; he alone has an uncontrollable sovereignty over us, because he alone is unchangeably good. He never will nor can request of us, consistent with his nature and attributes, anything which is not fit and reasoanble. His commands are all just and good. And to suppose that he has given to any particular set of men a power to require obedience to that which is unreasonable, cruel, and unjust, is robbing the Deity of his justice and goodness."
Rev. Samual West of Dartmouth, Massachusetts Election Sermon. 1776
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Re: Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 07:18:08 PM |
Age 41, NM |
Brother, you paint with an awefully wide brush. Yes the institution has its issues, but you seem to think all are like what you've experienced. And I really don't think its even remotely possible for your experience to be broad enough to objectively point this finger at so many church organizations you have never been to. In many circumstances God seems to have a different opinion than you because He has anointed and moved and transformed lives through such horrible organizations.
God's servants belong to him. If they are in sin and we become aware we are called to judge and to help restore, but you have not stated one sin - just opinion. That leaves me, in this situation to go back to Romans 14:4 "Who are you to condemn God's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let Him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord's power will help them do as they should."
I may disagree with another minister's philosophy of ministry or style or whatever. But they don't answer to me. They answer to God. If its sin - then I have a mandate to deal with it biblically. Until then, I trust them to God's care. And love to discuss ideas and challenge them and be challenged by them.
Anyway - I think you should be careful not to let a bitter root grow up within.
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Re: Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 07:02:03 PM |
Age 31, CA |
Yes, it has created a very passive Christianity. Everyone else has pretty much covered my feelings on the subject. It is only hard to know what the Church looks like when we don't want to come out of our comfort zone, instead preferring to mimic the world.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 06:15:28 PM |
Age 41, NM |
I'm saddened as I read most of the comments on your article. You have a valid point about 501c3 status and the "possible" influence that may have on church organizations and pastors. I practice tithing, and I love to tithe. I love to give over the tithe. I am saddened when I don't have the means to give more. I never think twice about tax-deductibility when I give. I don't even understand the insinuation. If I was giving to get in return why would I give a dollar to get thirty cents back? That makes no sense to me. Furthermore I am a pastor, and yes our organization has 501c3 tax status. But my only motivation in incorporating is to honor Romans 13 and submit to the governing authorities which God placed over me. If the government threatened to take away our 501c3 status for preaching the Word of God - I'd give it back in a heartbeat. But until then, I can do what God called me to do and submit to the governing authorities at the same time. I hope that's honorable. I sure want to be.
But what hurts when I read these comments is how so many just want to dump on the "church", and criticize leaders as greedy. Perhaps some of you have legitimately had pastors who were wrongly motivated, but that does not mean that all of them are.
I truly believe that for all its problems there are many church organizations that have 501c3 status and whether good, bad or indifferent, God still uses them.
I think of some new friends Juan and Beverly. They're in their 50's and were gloriously saved in my church in October. In November I had the priviledge of baptizing them. Since then they have had more problems in life than most people I know - but they still trust God. They still seek to obey. They still come for prayer every day at 8:00. They witness to people. They tell people how wonderful it is to serve God-even though life still has problems.
What an honor it is to have been a tool in God's hand and see this great transformation of character, even though my church is a 501c3 organization. I could give you dozens of other examples of God doing wonders in our midst.
The thing is, my Bible still says, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD. That means God can even use me in an imperfect church organization. Praise God. What a powerful God I serve.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 04:27:19 PM |
Age 51, MO |
Pastor Ray, you're on the right track as are several others who have commented. Briefly, the practice of religion is not taxable (Congress shall make no law...). Therefore, the 501(C)3 is entirely unnecessary re: the issue of taxation. Secondly, as a creature of the state, a 501(C)3 by law must advocate public (government) policy; that is, the current unjust war, the coddling of sodomites, the murder of unborn children, etc. For the time being they've chosen not to prosecute adverse views. Time will tell.
Buy why would the church of Jesus Christ want to be a creature of the state? Are a few liability perks worth the price of muzzling the whole gospel? If you can't teach people how to live and protect the flock, thus exposing the multitudinous fraud/debaucheries of the state and its various tyrants, what's the use? We have one King, Jesus Christ. All the others are pitiful mockers. SDG, Curt Frazier
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Re: Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 01:54:22 PM |
Age 43, KY |
You don't have to be an American to comment on any thing discussed on this forum, or even Christian, as I have witnessed in past topics and comments posted.
The Corporate Churches are a problem, as they are, selling something they call, "Christianity", but which truly isn't. Unfortunately, it is not limited 'Mega-Corporate-Churches', as I know many small churches who don't do any better, when it comes to the Truth of the Scriptures being taught. Far too many pastors, ministers and teachers have visions of being the next Billy Graham, or Pat Roberts, and to do this, they go for maximum audience size. They mistaking think that their purpose is to get the biggest congregation they can, and in order to do this, they have to put on a song and dance for potential members. Far too many pastors don't understand that only YHVH can call a person to Yeshua, and only Yeshua can save a person. No where in scriptures does it say that we are to call or bring anyone to the Messiah, nor does it give us the power to save. Our mission is simply... Worship the Lord with all our hearts, witness to the greatness of YHVH and Yeshua in our lives, teach the Word, and make disciples. If fact it the Lord working through us, not us alone, that does this. The reason for the mass exodus from the 'Church' is that so many Churches, big and small alike, are built upon the man speaking and not the Truth of the Scriptures being taught. When the Truth of the Scriptures being taught is the main focus of the ministry, people will come and stay. But when ministries start deviating from the scriptures and the truth that they offer, in lieu of some slick program, presentation, and speaker, designed to dazzle and wow the congregation, or more importantly, the unsaved visitor, to get maximum attendance, you might get a big surge of interest at first, but folks soon tire of it and loose interest. This is because, man and not YHVH have called these folks, and when man tries to do the calling, instead of YHVH, it is like building your house upon sand, instead of stone. No where in the scriptures that everyone you witness to, or teach the Word to, will accept Yeshua as their Savior and Messiah! Nor can it be found in scripture that there will be millions of true Christians followers around, when Yeshua returns. Or as far as that goes, that there will be a large body of folks who actually accept that message. The most dire problem with the "Church in America" and the World for that matter, is a lack of the Truth according to the Scriptures being taught, and trying to use some worldly fade or gimmick to catch the lost and believers alike attention to lure them in. The world offers too many other avenues of entertainment for the church to begin to think that it can compete in that field. We are not called to entertain or wow those YHVH brings to us, but rather tell them the great news about Yeshua and what He has to offer.
JMHO,
Mark
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Re: Re: Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 01:05:53 PM |
Age 50, CA |
Thank you brother for pointing out the fact that so many "throw the baby out with the bathwater" (a heavily used, but useful cliche). While I recognize the problems of the institutional church, I recognize the problem is with man, not the church. Simply moving bad hearts to a smaller group does not solve the problem. Your points are right on the money concerning small groups that can be just as messed up as a large group -- because they involve people.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 12:14:44 PM |
Age 26, TX |
Yeah, I agree with the above post--Ray, let's hear what you've found the church to truly be. Like you, I've questioned the appendages that are attached to the Scriptural definition of "church." It would be interesting to see what you have found in you study. Thanks!
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 12:00:18 PM |
Age 50, MI |
Thank you for your opinion. I happen to be a full time Chaplain with a ministry reaching out to the trucking industry, a place where the church fails to recognize the needs of those who move goods we use every day across the country. Ministries that require support in this model do have their faults, however, the good they serve and the blessings God has bestowed on those who are called to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."
Is it such a travesty to take the Gospel into the Government? Is it such a travesty to have special sanctions from the Government to promote the Word of God?
I won't dispute that there are 501c-3 'religious' organizations who organize themselves to further themselves and are rewarded right now for their 'good works', but don't throw out the those who would proclaim the Good News to others outside the organized church, where there is as much political unrest as there is in the Government over the 501c-3 organizations.
Instead of bashing those working for the Lord in ways He has called us to serve, let's work toward making God's Word a greater part of our lives and "show ourselves approved as II Tim 2:10-26 calls us to be.
Thank you for your opinion. Receive mine in love and meekness.
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Re: Do you attend a church or a 501-c3 nonprofit organization?
| Posted On: 02/07/07 11:23:32 AM |
Age 57, IL |
I attend both. A church which the IRS has given a 501 c(3) to. But first its a church, the 501 c(3) is just an added benefit because our country's founders decided that the gov't. can't tax churches.
I've planted two churches in my lifetime.
The first, in 1975, was a home missions church of a large and growing evangelical and Bible believing fellowship.
When I opened up a bank account for that church, I used the tax ID numbers provided to me by my statewide District office.
We required all checks to be signed by not less than 2 people and three people in the new church, plus myself, plus two or three of our statewide District officials were signers on the account.
Our legal structure was the denominational headquarters.
The second church which I wanted to plant was stopped by our District Office before it got off the ground.
I submitted myself to those in authority but wondered really if the call to plant that new church was from God and if so why did my denomination oppose it.
Looking back I'll admit I should have planted that new church anyway and left that denomination then and there if I had to.
A few years later my District Superintendent left our state to be a TV preacher. Very honestly I think he left because of the money not because of the ministry.
Once he arrived, he broke the law and a few years later he was sent to federal prison.
About that time I severed my relationship with that denomination.
A few years back I started up another church. Spring, 2004.
I tried to rent a P O Box for a mailing address and found I couldn't do that without a Tax ID number issued by the IRS. I tried to open a bank account and found I couldn't do that without a Tax ID number issued by the IRS.
I went online, found the IRS web site, filled out the paperwork, and they issued the tax id number.
I went back to the post office, rented a box, went back the bank opened up an account.
Then I called the IRS to ask how to get a 501 c(3) and they asked me, over the phone for my new Tax ID and I was told, since you are a church, the IRS already treats you as a 501 c(3), you don't need to apply.
The IRS has not bugged me since.
I fail to see why you guys seem to think its either a church or 501 c(3).
The church I attend and Pastor is both.
And no the church is not incorporated.
Pastor Art McCoy
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