Re: Re: Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 08/18/07 12:58:10 AM |
Age 66, CANADA |
I am replying to a feedback from Lou dated Jan 26, 2007, where he refers to an Edgar Bailey.
I met Edgar Bailey many years ago in Vancouver Canada. I have not been able to contact him since then. Is it possible that you might have a phone number or forwarding address for him?
The very same thing that happened to Lou, happened to me while Edgar was in Vancouver, except he touched the back of the lobe of my ear with his finger tip.
Edgar has a huge testimony. I would love to get in touch with him again.
This was the only google response to a search for his name.
Thanks for your help if you are able to help.
Sincerely, John Laughland
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 04/21/07 05:52:03 PM |
Age 34, TX |
If you go to Bishop TD Jakes website he has posted a page clearing up the false notion that he does not believe in the Trinity. Go to the Doctrinal Statement page and click on the link "What does Bishop Jakes have to say about our doctrinal statement". Other wise titled "Hearsay not Heresy"
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Re: Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 02/01/07 06:33:04 PM |
Age 27, MD |
You state: "I believe Jesus would call us to respectful discussion of these mysterious issues. We should never forget that His high priestly prayer for us in John 17 was that we be in unity, not that we be doctrinally or theologically correct."
Please believe me that my intention with this comment is not to be mean spirited. But when I read this statement, the first thing that came to mind was 'won't the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses be glad to hear this!'
Because, if doctrinal and theological correctness are not necessary, but only unity, then what makes the difference whether someone denies the trinity, as long as they claim Christ? If it's unnecessary, why stop there? Why not embrace those who claim Christianity but deny that he is the only way?
Of course doctrinal and theological correctness are important! Vital, really. Because otherwise we are deceiving ourselves and everyone we witness to, and not telling them the truth about God. We should make it of the highest priority to study God's word and ask for His wisdom and understanding as we do so. We should be as the Bereans in Acts 17, examining the Scriptures every day to see if what we're being taught is true. If we find that something we thought was true is in fact false, we should be humble enough to admit it and conform our beliefs to the truth of scripture (*and* be willing to share that truth with others.)
"To the Jews who had believed him,Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."-Jn.8:31,32
If we hold to anything that is not doctrinally or theologically correct, then we are not holding to Jesus' teachings.
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."-Jn.16:13a
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and truth."-Jn.4:23,24
And finally:
"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."-2Tim.2:15
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Re: Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 02/01/07 05:03:13 PM |
Age 27, MD |
But wasn't the point of this article to point out that T.D. Jakes never really comes right out and says it; that he dances around the issue instead of being clear about what he believes? As Christians, we should know what we believe, and we should not be embarrassed or backward about sharing that!
Also, if one does not clearly state what he professes to be true, then how can we be sure if he is really a brother or not? Many people claim to be Christians, but are they? Mt. 7:21-23
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/29/07 04:56:33 PM |
Age 67, IN |
Totally agree. I appreciate your discernment and warning. I'll pass it on!
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/29/07 04:26:50 PM |
Age 57, TX |
I am sorry to have to say it, but in my view this article is reprehensible. It's one thing to disagree about doctrine and theology, even very strong disagree about very fundamental issues. However, such virulent personal attack as Ken Silva has used against another believer is without justification. I believe Jesus would call us to respectful discussion of these mysterious issues. We should never forget that His high priestly prayer for us in John 17 was that we be in unity, not that we be doctrinally or theologically correct. To be sure, accurate interpretation of Scripture is important, but not of first importance. At least, Jesus didn't seem to think so.
Whether T.D. Jakes is right or wrong in his theology, Silva owes him an unqualified apology for his unwarranted personal attack. I only hope he makes his apology as public as his attack.
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Re: Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/29/07 02:13:08 AM |
Age 51, GA |
Right on brother, the basis for that accusation was very weak for such a vicious attack. I think we all know who the accuser of the brethren is, and that is not a spirit I would want to cultivate. May we all encourage one another to worship in truth and in spirit.
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/29/07 01:55:28 AM |
Age 51, GA |
There's no such thing as being called to a ministry to attack other believers. People might think they are, but there is no scriptural mandate for it. The scriptural mandate is the great commission. Remember the verse, those that aren't against us are for us. Calling a brother names, because of a superfluous disagreement over trinity doctrine, which nobody fully understands is ridiculous, not helpful, and puts you in danger of judgment (see Mat 5:22). I checked T.D.'s belief statement he doesn't deny the trinity. Anyway, there are no special crowns waiting for heresy hunters. Those are precisely the people Jesus was calling vipers. Brother Ken needs to remember he is not the perfect theologian. There was one, but He got hung on the cross, and He was/is the living Word.
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Re: Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/26/07 09:25:45 PM |
Age 30, IA |
Amen brother on the holy laughter and spirit slaying! I guess there was one biblical account where two were slayed by the Holy Spirit! Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapter 5....
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/26/07 07:24:00 PM |
Age 43, WI |
It may be time for cwn to once again "clean house" regarding columnists contributing to your site. Not only was the title inappropriae, the personel attack was hostile, there was no context for the debate,creating a fictional dialouge and then answering for your opponent may be classified as "cowardly". This is possibly the worst case of apologetics i have ever seen. Im not even sure I know what the author was trying to say.
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Re: Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/26/07 01:49:14 PM |
Age 63, OH |
Dear brother you have made a very important point and made it well. But I think you would be better served if you would have said you see no scriptural basis for "slain in the Spirit" than to say there is none. In John 18 when they came to arrest Jesus, He said;" Who is it you want"-- They replied" Jesus of Nazareth" -- "I Am He" Jesus replied. When Jesus said "I AM He" they drew back and FELL TO THE GROUND. I have been to many, many churches and seen so many (in my opinion) carnal speaking in tongues, healings,and being slain in the Spirit that I have come to the belief that MOST of the times these things are carnal. I have went up for prayer and had some preacher push my forehead so hard that I had to fall back or take a step back. I always chose to take a step back. I thought we can go all the way to the back of the church this way if you want sir. But even if it is really rare I have heard people speak in tongues and wanted to worship the Lord when thisnamed Edgar Bailey preach. I though the people were acting very carnal so I will admit I had a bad attitude. But when he started preaching WOW. It was the Holy Spirit preaching which is a rare thing. He preached nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. After the sermon Edgar said if anyone wanted to come to the altar for prayer they could. I thought about it and to my amazement the altar was full already so I kept my seat. I was more amazed at what followed as Edgar came down the line he would touch the ear of someone with his fist and the person would fall down. I am getting a chill as I write this just as I sensed then that this was different. Every single person in that church fell back when he touched them on the ear, 167 of them if I remember correctly. There was no one that caught them and no waving of the arms while making a lot of noise. Not one person made a noise when they fell on the floor and no one got hurt. As this was happening I said to the Lord; I will go up there if you want me to Lord but I am going to stand there with all my strength and no man is going to make me fall, but Lord if you want to make me fall that is fine because I am your servant. I went up with my girlfriend who I latter married, and we both fell back onto the floor. Edgar came up to me and spoke something from the Holy Spirit to me then touched my ear and all of a sudden it was as my body was gone and my head just floated to the floor. There was a women with us who was very angry at this and said that was not from God and she went up to show us so. He touched her ear and she fell back like everyone else did. However she laid there for about ten mimutes so they covered her with a blanket and Edgar went back to preaching. While he was preaching this lady quietly got up, went to her seat and never said one word the rest of the evening. I propose to you brother that I was slain in the Spirit once and the scriptures back it up. By the way Edgar's hand turned very red when he did this. He said he got his hand burnt very badly once and the Lord healed his hand. After the service I was asking Edgar about this and he showed me a video tape of him walking around the field of a the Hula Bowl Stadium and you could see ALL the people fall back as he walked by. This was at a evangelistic service. To the Lord Jesus who is able to make even unbelievers fall back at His presence. Lou
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/26/07 12:34:49 PM |
Age 63, OH |
KEN;you quote Jakes as saying:One God, but manifest in...three different ways, Father in creation, Son in redemption, Holy Spirit in regeneration. Then you proceed to call him a heretic because he does not use the term Trinity or Triune God. You do not quote ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE to show why Jakes would be a heretic by saying what you claim he said. I have to say that your methods are the same methods used by the Catholics to try what they called "heretics". Even if someone believes what is true they can still make that doctrine an IDOL instead of worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ. We can look in Judges at the story of Gideon to see how people react when they defend an idol. They get angry when someone destroys or attacks their idol. The reason the worshipers of Baal got angry was their idol was destroyed and Gideon was still standing. This made it look like Baal was no god at all(which of course was true). This made the worshipers of Baal look foolish. So in order for them not to look foolish they wanted to kill Gideon so they could say "look what happens to people who burn Baal". Gideon's father reasoned with them and pointed out that it would not be Baal acting against Gideon but mere humans, which would only support that Baal could not act. So even these idol worshipers were able to see that if Baal was a real god then they would have to leave Baal judge an act against Gideon, if Baal could. So they said "Let Baal Contend with him", him being Gideon. Of course Baal being made out of wood was unable to contend with Gideon. So all the people knew that Baal was not god but the Lord was God. This story spread to the land of the Midianites and the fear of Gideon spread with it. You would be fearful of someone who destroyed your God. And you would start to fear their God. You seem to deal with Mr. Jakes with much anger. Are you defending an idol or God. We can point out the truth and leave someone decide for themselves without the judging of souls. I certainly don,t even listen to the preaching of TD Jakes but from what you charge I am not ready to cast him into hell. By the way to be honest the word Trinity or Triune NEVER appears in any translation that I have ever read. I am sure it never appears in the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures. Also they never once say that God is three. But Jesus does say when asked what was the most important commandment "HEAR O'ISRAEL THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE". So could not one argue that Jakes is correct on this point and you are the one that is incorrect. Lou
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/26/07 11:56:47 AM |
Age 43, FL |
I have not met Mr. Jakes to ask him myself; but, from your quote of Time magazine at the beginning of your article, he seems O.K..
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/26/07 12:33:15 AM |
Age 58, VA |
Should have read "Latter Rain" not "Latter Reign". The former, not the latter, is correct!
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/26/07 12:12:39 AM |
Age 58, VA |
God the Son, Jesus, is fully and completely God. God the Father is fully and completely God. And God the Holy Spirit is fully and completely God. Yet there is only one God. In Genesis 1:26, Then God said, Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds. In John 16:13-14, Jesus said of the Holy Spirit, He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. And in John 8:16-18, Jesus said of Himself and the Father, And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.
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Re: Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/25/07 07:33:11 PM |
Age 58, VA |
That is a good one! "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged." "Seperate,"but equal!
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/25/07 07:29:26 PM |
Age 68, MA |
Reading the feedback I see Ken is called mean spirited, a name caller, and "bitter towards T.d. Jakes." Hmmm. Sounds like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Why complain and then do the same thing ?
The knee jerk reaction to having one's idol knocked off his/her pedestal seems to be to attack the messenger.
Here's a little food for thought. Mt 23:27
" Woe to you,scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleaness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to men to men, but within you are full of hypocracy and iniquity."
That was the real Jesus, not the gentle fluffy imaginary Jesus people like to promote. Tell me, do Jesus' words above make Him a mean spirited, name calling, bitter towards the Pharisees Son of God ? Or how about these words ... "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? "
Gal 1:11 "But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned." Does that make Paul bitter toward Peter, and mean spirited ? God forbid we should confront problems head on and take care of them ! Time to stop defending our favorite preachers/ministers and focus on Jesus Christ. Read and believe His Words, that is life
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/25/07 07:21:43 PM |
Age 58, VA |
For myself, I get tired of people saying, "that wasn't enough info." If it wasn't, why not study it our for yourself! To those of you who did not think Pastor Ken gave enough proof to support his beliefs, could it be that it is the responsibility of those that read these articles on the web to also search out for themselves more information on this or any other subject in order to be like the Bereans? If I hear something I put my faith in is "rocky", I am going to delve further into it myself to find out what the Bible actually says. -Just another tidbit to whet someone's appetite-I would like to add what Pentecostal Rev. Joseph R. Chambers in his article "Blasphemy: The False Anointing And The "Latter Reign" Movement" said concerning the "Jesus Only" false doctrine. He said, "This present "revival" characterizing the false anointing began in the late 1940s and early 1950s as "the Latter Reign Movement." What is happening now is a resurfacing of what Bible-believing churches rejected when it first occurred. One confusing false doctrine that came out of the latter reign movement is the "Jesus-only" theory, which denies the Trinity and presents a "god" who does not know who he is. He is schizophrenic, one minute claiming to be the Father that gave His son, the next minute claiming to be the Son, and the next minute claiming to be the Holy Ghost sent by the Father at the request of the Son. I often say to the Jesus-only proponents, "I would not want to serve a god who does not know for sure who He is." This kind of doctrinal confusion is the mindset of the present new wave anointing called "revival." In his article titled "The False Roots In the Present Revival", Chambers says of the Charismatic movement, "the Bible states clearly, "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (Psalm 11:3). It is impossible to build a spiritual house unless the foundation is pure and Biblical. When a religious event is based on a foundation totally apart from the solid truth of Scripture, then that event cannot be accepted as New Testament or Biblical. The fruit that issues from an unbiblical religious experience or event may appear real, but will prove to be rotten fruit." Did not God say, "a deluding spirit so strong if possible, it would deceive the Elect?" We best stick to what thee Sscriptures teach and we best find out for ourselves, with the help of the Holy Spirit, what that is!
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/25/07 01:16:25 PM |
Age 46, AK |
Brother Ken has been called to a ministry that is not an easy one.
One feedback comment mentions that he does not define modalism; whereas, he actually had in previous articles, viz., with regard to the Oneness theology of TD Jakes.
Other comments mention that he shouldn't use such terminology or harsh language or "name calling." Have we forgotten that John the Baptist called those erring religious leaders a generation of vipers, straight to their faces? (Matt 3:7) Have we forgotten that Jesus outright called these hypocrites vipers also? (check out all of Matthew 23). In fact, the Lord rebuked Peter and called him Satan because he denied the truth of the Cross (Matt 16:23). Have we forgotten how Jesus often offended the religious hypocrites and deceivers? (Matt 15:12) The Lord called Herod a fox and he wasn't using that as a term of endearment (Lk 13:32).
Did our Lord do this because He was critical, insensitive, or politically incorrect? No, He did this because He loved and is love.
Brother Ken's service to the Lord is not mine, as mine is not his. Yet, as different members of the body of Christ, we can both be used to bring glory to God through the preaching of the Cross and the teaching of His Word. If someone from my congregation reads his article and something's not altogether clear, I can present the horrible error of Oneness as a doctrine that maligns the very nature of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. If Jesus was not fully God, He lied and therefore, His atoning blood as fully man would be tainted, making the Cross ineffective to save us... according to Scripture.
Rather than give all the Scriptural references for Christ's deity and atoning grace, the pastor of your own Bible-teaching congregations can present those truths.
The doctrine of the Trinity is not true because it is something that can be explained by human logic or settled by human reason; it is truth because Scripture declares it. To deny the Trinity is to worship something other than the God who has revealed Himself in Scripture.
Chen V'Shalom Kol L'kem
(Grace and Peace to You All)
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Re: T.D. Jakes Is A Spiritual Coward
| Posted On: 01/25/07 08:55:22 AM |
Age 51, NY |
I was a bit disappointed in this article. It didn't carry a spirit of Christian love and concern.
I, too, was raised Baptist, and turned Pentecostal at age 20. I am extremely thankful for what each denomination has taught me. Both have been wonderful. But I am controlled by neither.
Denomination is a man-made thing. Certainly it has it's place in running church organizations, spending monies, pursuing goals, etc. But in itself, it is no maker of doctrine. Only the Scriptures qualify for that. So why make an issue of it? Why would anyone want to be controlled by any denomination?
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