Re: Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists?
| Posted On: 12/24/06 11:18:22 AM |
Age 28, TX |
Thank you for the additional information.
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists?
| Posted On: 12/22/06 04:11:10 PM |
Age 57, CA |
There is no way in which the action undertaken by Hank Hanegraaff could possibly be construed as filing a lawsuit against John Ankerberg and John Weldon. To do so either indicates the authors total ignorance of the legal system or it is a deliberate misconstruction of fact. An Amicus Brief is not and cannot be submitted by a party to a lawsuit; it is filed by a non-party to bring certain matters of interest to the attention of the court. While Ms Litz is free to criticize the content of the brief filed by Hanegraaff, she should not misconstrue the facts.
If it was possible to say that Hanegraaff sued the apologists (which it is not), then it would follow that the various Christians who signed and filed other Amicus Briefs in this case also sued fellow Christians. (Walter Martin never claimed that the Local Church was a non-Christian group although he was critical of them.) However the author neglects to criticize the actions of the other Amicus filers.
In attacking Hanegraaff for filing a lawsuit against Brad Sparks, she neglects to point out that Sparks filed the original suit against Hanegraaff. In the citation she used from Sparks, he references Hanegraaffs countersuit; a countersuit is only filed in response to another suit. Ms Litz should know that there was reportedly a group of Christians including Sparks who were willing to sue their brother but, upon advice from counsel, only the strongest case was chosen for litigation. It is an untenable position to use one lawsuit filed by a Christian against a fellow Christian to criticize that same one for filing a Amicus Brief in a litigation involving fellow Christians. It is also more than a little hypocritical.
In this post, I have not addressed the tone of the article or many of the other issues that should be discussed. The points I raise above are important in this conversation and Ms Litz should try to address them without the rancor evident in her article.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult?
| Posted On: 12/22/06 03:19:43 PM |
Age 63, OH |
I am very impressed with your perseverance. When I feel someone has a different view of
some scripture then it often brings me to serious questioning. The scriptures tell me that I should esteem others higher than myself and I do try to do that despite my arrogance.Knowing myself, as I have learned with great difficulty, makes this much easier. However,many times,the more I learn about others the more difficult this task becomes. Thank heavens there are exceptions such as you. However even in the difficult cases it only requires that I look back on myself and the mercy and grace that Jesus has extended to me and the task becomes much easier. I believe every jot and tittle of the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures are written by God Almighty. I further believe that this has been mathematically proven to be true. My last name is Newton so you might imagine that I have made a study of Physics and Math. As a result this mathematical proof, though not necessary, is more meaningful to me than to some. I did not assume you had not gone to Hank in private, or how you should have accomplished this task, but was merely asking if you had done this. If the line was long at his door then I would think a letter should be proper. If he did not answer then that would be his problem not yours. I would think that my efforts would show that I do not think any human being should take any false thing lightly, but any lie is from the enemy of Jesus and to be treated as such. My response might not had much to do with your article but more to do with the method and attitude of your article. Furthermore,I do not feel like I wasted my time, but you seem to be a person worth contending with. My comments still stand; I think women certainly have a place in the church and ministry, just not leadership or authority over men. This should be done like this to honor the Lord. If our Lord Jesus learned obedience by suffering how much more so we must suffer to learn to obey. Surely the master is greater than the student.(Hebrews 5;8) When Isaac's mom left me 19 years ago I learned how suffering can bring obedience. The fellowship of His sufferings brings us much closer to Him. Being closer to Him COMPELS me to want to obey one so Holy. If we trust Him to save us then we are standing in the Holy of Holies covered with His blood with nothing left against us, nothing left that He would even scold us for. To The Holy One. ---- Lou
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult?
| Posted On: 12/21/06 10:59:08 PM |
Age 61, TX |
I'm afraid you've misunderstood my reason for responding to your post. I did so because you made the following statement: "Your article has brought a serious question between it and my faith," after which you laid out some remarks that left me wondering if you were questioning Scripture. You made statements that sounded as if you were trying to make particular verses (taken out of context) condradict each other. As a fellow believer, my only aim was merely to reassure you that the Bible is worthy of our belief and faith, thus my discussion of the different translations of the word, love. In no way was I trying to challenge you. While I feel much of your last post had little or nothing to do with what I said, I'm happy to know that you're a serious pursuer of the Bible and its Author. May I ask you why you took the position that the author had not discussed Hal's apparent dilusions with him? Was that a conclusion on your part? Do you feel a woman should tolerate false teaching?
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Re: Re: Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult?
| Posted On: 12/21/06 01:33:28 AM |
Age 63, OH |
Thanks for your kind answer.We are accepted by trusting in Jesus, but trusting in Jesus brings obedience to Him. As Jesus said " if you love me you will obey my commands". Notice He did not say you will try to obey my commands; or He did not say you will obey as you understand. He said you will obey my commands. There is one way to judge our love for Him and that is our obedience. Obedience does not save us because of our wicked sinful hearts. There is part of us that always wants its own way. But thank God if he lives in our hearts there is part of us that always wants to obey. I have found IF I AM WILLING TO BE MADE WILLING he is always able and willing to cause me to be obedient. If we ask we will receive. If we have not it is because we ask not. I have always wondered about Jephthah in Judges 11 and the mystery of him sacrificing his only daughter. I had not because I asked not or I asked for wrong motives, my glory and not his glory. But the other day I studied the scriptures and did a word study to prepare myself and the Lord gave me a revelation of what the mystery was about. It was almost to easy; I had wondered about this ever since the 1st time I read the story 32 years ago. I don't get any of my revelations from men but they all come from Jesus Christ himself. He is able to show anyone, who is really willing,the truth is he not. I asked the Lord to take my life 32 years ago ( what mercy and grace He has to call one such as I). I have about 30 different English translations and study them all; even back to the 1534 translation by William Tyndale (May God bless his soul). I have found that all scripture is profitable for my instruction. Some deny the scriptures in a big way and say the virgin birth was a story dreamed up by the apostles. And some just say the scriptures that don't say what they can believe are not for this time or for them, but for someone else. I would think that you could take your answer to me and Hank would want to send that same answer to you about what you wrote him about. When I was 39 and not married or seeing anyone; the Lord spoke to me and said I would have another son. He would be a child of promise and a child late in life so call him Isaac. 5 years later the Lord brought him forth. He asked if he could ask Jesus into his heart when he was 3. He was so given to the Lord that I was shamed by his obedience. He has a IQ of 160 and majors in Physics. He earned a letter in Cross Country his freshman year. He has seemed to surpass me in every way and I am not worthy to be his father; but I have never tolerated any disrespect to be shown me. He is still younger and less experienced. If he can not honor me who he can see then he will not honor God who he can't see. We should respect our elders because God is the ancient of days, so we should respect age. We should respect our parents because they are our source of physical life and God is our source. Women should show men respect not because men are better; But God is a father and He became a man. Also a man is the stronger vessel; as God is the strongest vessel. Manhood should be shown respect out of respect for our father. Even if I am wrong my son is not to correct me out of respect for his heavenly Father. In the name of the one who is able.Jude 24&25 --- Lou
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Re: Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists?
| Posted On: 12/20/06 08:08:08 PM |
Age 48, FL |
What exactly are you insinuating about Calvary Chapel? Does this website consider them to be part of the "mega-church" movement? Do you know the specifics about any lawsuits involving C.C. pastors?
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists?
| Posted On: 12/20/06 12:30:03 PM |
Age 50, KS |
Not defending Hank's stand on the Local Church (whether it is a cult or not) nor am I commenting on any other lawsuits in which he may have participated, but in this case I don't believe he was a participant in the suit. I have pasted the definition of "Amicus" below and after reading the CRI position statement, PSL001, I would have to agree that a very bad precedent may have been set by the court that could be used by anyone (secular media, government, etc.) to make any claim they wish (child abusers, wife beaters, drug users) about an organization (such as Grace to You), throw in the word "cult" and the organization would have no legal recourse. READ THE POSITION PAPER, READ THE DEFINITION BELOW.
God bless.
Amicus curiae
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Amicus curiae (plural amici curiae) is a legal Latin phrase, literally translated as "friend of the court," that refers to someone, not a party to a case, who volunteers to offer information on a point of law or some other aspect of the case to assist the court in deciding a matter before it.[1]. The information may be a legal opinion in the form of a brief, testimony that has not been solicited by any of the parties, or a learned treatise on a matter that bears on the case. The decision whether to admit the information lies with the discretion of the court.
The situation most often noted in the press is when an advocacy group files a brief in a case before an appellate court to which it is not a litigant. Appellate cases are normally limited to the factual record and arguments coming from the lower court case under appeal, and attorneys focus on the facts and arguments most favorable to their clients. Where a case may have broader implications, amicus curiae briefs are a way to introduce those concerns, so that the possibly broad legal effects of court decisions will not depend solely on the parties directly involved in the case.
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Re: Going to your brother first
| Posted On: 12/20/06 11:28:36 AM |
Age 42, AZ |
Here is a quote from the disclaimer on CRI's site. This is not about LC but about the wording of "cult" and the opportunity of any secular or non-christian group falsly accusing a church or other christian organization of something criminal or abhorant. See below what ECNR included in the term cult. This IS about our 1st amend rights. This was appealed by the lower courts and CRI is trying to make the court system fair for you and I.
"While our courts quite rightly are prevented by our Constitution from deciding the truth or falsity of theological or religious claims, our courts are expressly charged with deciding whether or not secular claims are upheld or libelous in issues such as fraud, sexual abuse, false imprisonment, larceny, bioterrorism, pedophilia, and so forth (the kinds of characteristics ECNR uses for cults). When ECNR attributes those kinds of actions to the groups they term cults, they are placing themselves in a position to be challenged legally in the realm of libel if they cannot substantiate their charges. That ECNR frequently uses terms such as criminal in association with these accusations underscores this point."
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists?
| Posted On: 12/20/06 10:45:08 AM |
Age 42, AZ |
" It is funny how most of Hanks audience is not aware of this lawsuit against apologists. As I have spoken to radio hosts and Hanks fans, they have all seemed astounded at this news. If there is nothing wrong with it, then why not feature this story on a segment of the radio show? Christians would be interested in your answer, Hank"
Just a note there is a large disclaimer on CRI's website if you would like to look there. So I would say they are disclosing it to their "fans".
Thank you for bringing this to our attention, there were no links to prove what you were saying Mrs Litz so I went to CRI to get my info.
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Re: Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult?
| Posted On: 12/20/06 01:29:38 AM |
Age 61, TX |
Did you open and read the links in the article? This is nothing new. An overwhelming number of people listen to Hank on the radio, and he's changed his teachings in certain areas. Because he seems to be deviating from God's Word, he's lost many many listeners. We bailed out a few years back. It's almost as if someone is 'leading' him. We feel deep concern for those who blindly trust him. He's not the original "Bible Answer Man" and that dear man must be appalled by what has happened to the ministry he started. You mentioned words like: sarcasm, hostility, vicious: I don't think the author is aiming that at Hal so much as at anyone who is repeatedly altering what the Bible says. In that regard, I understand what she's feeling. You either believe the Bible or you don't. You're either pro-Christ or anti-Christ. Think about it.
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Re: Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult?
| Posted On: 12/20/06 01:11:23 AM |
Age 61, TX |
You've asked many excellent questions that can't all be answered here. I believe all scripture is important, and that they can be applied to our lives today. But we must study the Bible with the understanding of WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY, and HOW, the books were written. Each had its own purpose for coming into existence. The Gospels were primarily written for the Jews. Jesus was a Jew, as was nearly all of the early church (which translates to assembly of believers). Jesus kept the OT Law and Feasts, I'd believe He was kosher, and don't think He'd wear garments of both cotton and linen; it would break the Law, etc. The Epistles were written to certain churches (again, assemblies of believers) or individuals for specific reasons, based on what the struggles of the believers happened to be at that time, and in their situations. As to whom a woman is to love: we should all try to 'agapao' everyone, just as God does; We should all 'phileo' unselfishly, and "philanthropia' out of love for mankind, but we should feel 'eros' for our spouses only. It's not quite as cut and dried as you make it sound. While we may read 'love' in our translations, there were many different words that were translated into that one word 'love.' Their definitions were more extensive than ours. The OT and NT Scriptures addressing homosexuality are very clear: it is a sin. I thank God for study resources, Hebrew and Greek dictionaries, and solidly sound preachers and teachers who can explain on a level I can understand. And I thank Him for exchanges with people like you, because I always learn something. God bless you.
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists?
| Posted On: 12/20/06 01:05:57 AM |
Age 36, CA |
Your article was patently one-sided and confusing. That much was obvious from the get-go. Your opening sentence gives you away: to use the term "self-styled" belies your true feelings toward Mr. Hanegraaff's use of the title Bible Answer Man. The article contained no information for Mr. Hanegraaff's point of view, only statements (without examples) of how great Messers Ankerberg and Weldon are, about how Mr. Hanegraaff has let so many Walter Martin supporters down, about how awful he is (according to Brad) and a FEW examples of people who are siding with you. How is anyone supposed to objectively come to a conclusion? I agree with a previous post: this is gossip, and it made me sick to read it. Had you been objective, fair by giving examples from both sides, it would be different. Simply saying "We must pray for Hank..." doesn't cut it when you're so one-sided. Why didn't you post the Amicus Curiae by Mr. Hanegraaff on behalf of the Local Church? You'd see that he disagrees with some of their theology and ecclesiology, but after conducting his own research he concludes they are not a cult. After conducting his own research. Obviously his research yielded a different answer than Messers Ankerberg and Weldon. To label a group a "cult" has potentially devastating consequences, and because he did not agree with the label, Mr. Hanegraaff supported the Local Church. It's also interesting that you've linked to Jackie Alnor's article on this topic; she's a staunch supporter of the Calvary Chapel movement and its Senior Pastor. She blasts away at Mr. Hanegraaff for the lawsuit (is he suing or did he lend his support to the Local Church?), yet nowhere on her site will you find an article about the many lawsuits currently taking place between Calvary Chapel's Senior Pastor and other pastors and churches and ministries within the movement. Maybe you should also do an article on these lawsuits? I would love to read an in-depth, objective, well-written article that would allow believers to come to some honest conclusions.
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Re: Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult? (Part One)
| Posted On: 12/20/06 12:32:03 AM |
Age 61, TX |
I've already said that if everyone that wanted to practice Mt. 18 with Hank, the line would be discouragingly long. Hank has changed his teachings on some topics, and not for the better. This has been going on for more than a few years. You asked the author about possibly causing a fellow believer to take offense/stumble, or a non-Christian reader to use it against the church. I COMMEND THE AUTHOR for WARNING fellow believers and non-believers that everyone who considers themselves an authority on the Bible is not one! Beware! Be a Berean! Acts 17:11-12 Please read it.
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Re: Going to your brother first
| Posted On: 12/20/06 12:18:25 AM |
Age 61, TX |
I'm afraid Hank would have an awfully long line if everyone went to him to discuss an issue first, as the Bible instructs us to do. He has changed his mind and teaching in the last few years, and we no longer listen to him or use him as a resource. I'm afraid his new insights are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. If you do follow Hank, be a Berean, and check everything he says against Scripture and see if it holds up to the test of truth.
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Going to your brother first
| Posted On: 12/19/06 04:00:47 PM |
Age 42, ID |
I also would like to know if you approached Hank directly before writing this article. You don't say. I think these things need to be exposed, however, we need to do all things in an orderly and Biblical manner. (I'm not accusing you, just asking and hoping you will answer.)
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult?
| Posted On: 12/19/06 01:37:10 PM |
Age 37, MI |
I agree that if a Christian brother sins, we who are the body should speak the truth in love to restore him to the right path. I agree that lawsuits between Christians are not biblical and should be addressed. However, the tone of this article made me feel wrong in reading it, as if I were listening to the most poisonous gossip. I can't judge the writer's heart - only God can do that- but if the intention of her heart was as hateful and vengeful as her article came across - then she is in need of loving correction as well ( We ALL need it from time to time). What happened to speaking the truth in love? We can judge the action of the lawsuit against a Christian brother as wrong, but we cannot say that it is Mr. Hanegraaf's heart intention to get money so he can spend it on golfing and country clubs. This is unnecessary slander and gossip. As Christians, none of us do everything right all the time (he who says he has no sin is a liar, right?) We need to speak the truth, but we need to speak it in love. Jesus was full of grace and truth, and it seems that we as Christians tend to lean one way or the other, but our goal should be to let the Holy Spirit lead us into TRUTH and GRACE. Thank you for listening and I hope my comments are taken as they were meant - to give a reader's perspective on this article. May God receive glory from all of our lives and actions!
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult?
| Posted On: 12/19/06 12:43:53 PM |
Age 48, RI |
This article lacked any facts that would help anyone to know why the individual placing the lawsuit did so. I could berate this site for running a pop up while I was reading this that said "would you like to make or save money!!![click here to organize something for us]". I could assume you are using money to incent and motivate Christians to do something to benefit what your beliefs. Without knowing the facts I'll try not to judge as harsly as this article did! Thankfully every believe has the ability to discern truth from error via the Holy Spirt. Praise God he has provided for that, and none of us are dependent up on the internet, the radio or even a local pastor to be 100% perfect! Silly that we'd expect it, actually. Praise God he will work all things to good to those called according to his purpose regardless of our own frailties! And as for bashing the Bible Answer Man, I'm not into it. But I'll pray that all believers in America are led by the Holy Spirit to change lives and make us as his people be what God desires.
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult? (Part One)
| Posted On: 12/19/06 11:46:34 AM |
Age 41, NM |
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a fan of the Bible Answer Man or his radio show. It often seems to display a critical spirit. However, I have a question for you, Dwayna. Since you are concerned that The Bible Answer Man has engaged in a lawsuit without following the prescription of Matthew 18, did you follow Matthew 18 in approaching your fellow brother in Christ seeking to win your brother over, before spreading gossip about him to the rest of the Christian world who reads these articles? What if, by spreading these issues around, you cause a young brother or sister in the Lord to take offense and/or stumble and have a bitter root grow up within them? What if non-christian who read this article use it to speak against the church and defame the name of the God whom you and Hank both serve? I just think we as Christians ought to practice the things we tell others to practice. Don't you? Just a thought. Perhaps you did contact him directly and follow the Matthew 18 edict. If so, I am thankful. Dear God I ask that you would work in the heart of my brother Hank, and draw him nearer to you. If he is in error, I pray you would restore him and increase his effectiveness. May Your kingdom grow even through what we see as a setback. I pray, Lord, that those reading this article would not let a bitter root grow up in them and that they truly would pray for those involved and not just talk about it. Bring glory and honor to your name through this situation. You are able and You are worthy. In Jesus' name, Amen.
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult?
| Posted On: 12/19/06 11:40:06 AM |
Age 63, OH |
ARE ALL THE VERSES IN THE BIBLE IMPORTANT or can we throw some of them out or excuse them away. I think you have made a good point about Hank and the answer is yes; all the verses of the Bible are important. Your article has brought a serious question between it and my faith. Please answer my question for this is a serious matter. The following are some of the questions that came to mind:
While Hank seems to be in violation to the verse about taking a brother to court; we are also told to talk to a brother privately 1st and then to take serveral brothers with you to talk to him. After this we are told to take the matter before the whole church. Have you done this.
There is another verse in 1 Timothy 11-15. Is that verse still part of the Bible. If we say it is outdated because culture has changed; then can't we say the same of the verses about lawsuits. Is this scripture about how women should act in church; or about how women in the church should act. Is the church a building or a meeting; or is the church the Body of Christ. This scripture also has a witness in 1 Cor 14:34-35.
If it is OK for you to talk to another womens husband this way; then would it be OK for that women to talk to her husband in the same way. Ephesians 5:22-24 tells the women to submit to the husband as she would the Lord; so would it be proper to talk also to the Lord this way.
It also says in the Bible that the love between a man and a women explains the mystery of how Jesus loves the church and how the church is to love Christ. Is a women to love her husband only and not her brother. Is not this scripture also an indication of how women who are in the church are to treat men in honor of our Lord.
If we throw these scriptures out; are we not saying to the homosexuals that they are correct in throwing out the ones that offend them. Would it not have been better for you to go to a brother and get him to correct this brother so as to honor our Lord.
I no not if you have a husband as you did not mention one or your father. So I humbly ask their forgivness and address these questions and comments to them so as not to offend them.--- Hoping to honor the only One worthy; the Lord Jesus. -- Lou
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Re: Bible Answer Man Sues Apologists and Defends A Cult? (Part One)
| Posted On: 12/19/06 11:32:24 AM |
Age 53, OK |
A tragic development but predictable.
Because of the decline of Scriptural authority in the Church, the Bible Answer Man program has had to move slowly away from a focus on cults to a focus on Church issues. Regrettably in doing so the program has become less and less about solid, exegetical Bible answers, and is becoming more and more The Bible According to Hank.
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