Re: Re: Guilt by Association
| Posted On: 12/18/06 11:21:54 AM |
Age 40, TX |
Pastor Ken,
I do sincerely hear your words and everything will be grounded in prayer in Scripture. My ultimate source of authority is the Word of God. Much like your references to Dr. Martin I turn to Dr. John Piper for much advice, as well as my pastor and a few other Godly men. I have to be honest that I do not trust everything you write due to your bias. I am not suggesting that you willingly say anything false, but in your zeal you overlook the whole truth. As pastoral advisor for Slice of Laodicea you are responsible for everything on there. That includes the comments sections since that are tightly controlled to express the Slice view as clearly stated in the rules for commenting section. No, I am not outraged because my comments are not posted. However, when I see comments that say Rick Warren is the anti-Christ, I have to assume you are o.k. with that. Slice condemns humor from the church but is fine with playing a video mocking Joel Osteen. How does that stand for biblical truth? I have a problem with several things Rick does and a lot with Joel so dont try to say I defend them. I am defending the whole truth. I am not defending McManus and all that he does. I am defending his work in promoting the Gospel. No one is perfect and there may be things he does which are so heretical, we need to abandon him but I dont see it now. You told me to be careful of David Jeremiah, so your silence on Brannon Howse promoting him, tells me you dont have an answer. I still glance at Slice and Apprising because it points me to many relative things I need to know but I simply cannot trust everything on there. We may very well be at a crossroads where you quote Luke 12:54-56 for me and I in turn quote it in relevance to you. I absolutely do not want to discourage you but I say these words with the intent to reign in some extreme views I see on your part and hope that you carefully consider your responsibilities according Matt.12:36. More importantly, I will follow no man more than Jesus Christ because salvation in Him alone and the truth or Scripture are the only things I can trust 100%. Press On, Darren
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Re: Re: Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist ChurchPart I
| Posted On: 12/15/06 06:32:09 PM |
Age 36, TX |
Thank you! I will check into both of these. That's exactly what I have been lookin for -- more information, more evidence. I want to make informed decisions about my faith. I appreciate your post!
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Re: Guilt by Association
| Posted On: 12/15/06 06:28:42 PM |
Age 36, TX |
Well said, Darren!
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Re: Re: Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist ChurchPart I
| Posted On: 12/15/06 03:39:46 PM |
Age 57, CA |
Unfortunately, even the most committed and convicted Bible believing Christians fall into the trap of "listening" to other viewpoints/belief systems and then attempt to incorporate such into scripture thus creating confusion among even the elect, if that is possible. We must always be discernful, that is to judge for ourselves what is truth and what is leaning toward falsehood. Our "spiritual" eyes must always be open to be able to conclude for ourselves with the help from scripture what is heretical. As I said before, the apostate church is alive and growing and it does fool a large number of believers. Beware of such false prophets and do not look toward man for truth but toward God's Word. I pray for those who have been misled and who are thus misleading multitudes. I trust no man with words but only the Word of God do I hold steadfast to. It would be wise for all believers to do the same. Bottom line, it will be one on one with the Lord when He calls us home and we must solely answer to Him.
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Re: Guilt by Association
| Posted On: 12/15/06 01:56:30 PM |
Age 51, NH |
Darren, I must tell you in the Lord that you seriously need to open your eyes as to what "gospel" men like McManus preach. And you need to seriously look at his associations, his myriad websites and the human potential mumbo jumbo there. If "guilt by association" was not valid we might as well tear out 2 Corinthians 6:14-18. It's HOW close the association in the case of these new evangelical man-loving vipers. And my friend in your zeal to protect them you actually argue in a manner which is essentially a reverse "guilt by association." Honestly ask the Lord to show you since it is obvious you won't listen to me. No problem, just so you get the information before you get swept up into this compromise and spiritual deception yourself. There's no offense whatever meant here, nor any taken on my part; but you won't be able to say you haven't been duly warned. :-)
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Guilt by Association
| Posted On: 12/15/06 09:44:55 AM |
Age 40, TX |
I have also been critical of using the guilt by association for the purpose of condemning someone as heretical or calling them a fool. CWN itself promotes David Jeremiah as a speaker and sells his talks from their conferences and Pastor Ken has told us to beware of him due to his associations with Ken Blanchard. I have also heard that David Jeremiah quoted from McManus book so we should be concerned about that. Should we conclude that since Brannon Howse endorses David Jeremiah who reads from Erwin McManus that Brannon Howse endorses heretical teaching? Of course not. Darren
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Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist Church
| Posted On: 12/15/06 06:42:25 AM |
Age 46, GA |
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church but had been in an independent church for many years when we returned to an SBC church. It was conservative but popish in its application, there being no real accountability for the pastor. We then visited another SBC church in our community, supposedly one of the most conservative churches in our area. They sent home a DVD for our teenagers, giving highlights of their activities. One of these "edifying" activities was a wedding...with the traditional wedding march and all. You see the bride coming down the aisle, from the back. Then you notice there is plastic on the floor of the sanctuary. Then the bride turns around and the wild music comes on...the bride is a man with hairy armpits. The teens, screaming and squealing, begin to throw paint all over the "bride" and his white dress. Is this fun? We were sickened at every level, and needless to say, we never stepped foot back in that church. After visiting numerous SBC churches, we gave up on them but thankfully found a very conservative and God-honoring PCA church that has a very high view of God, His Word and the Church. God help us all.
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Re: Re: Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist ChurchPart I
| Posted On: 12/14/06 09:09:14 PM |
Age 36, TX |
Ken, whether you believe I am interested in the evidence or not makes little difference to me. I do desire to know the truth, which is one of the reasons I read CWN. But, if you're stating that you have already made your case as far as convicting McManus, then you and everyone else knows that you have fallen very short of the mark.
Unlike others, however, perhaps, I am not willing to make the leap to believe the worst about people without the evidence. The only thing you have demonstrated thus far is that Erwin McManus has had relationships with these people or that he has spoken at some various functions. I heard McManus speak at Fellowship Church in Grapevine and have read his book "The Barbarian Way." I have failed to see anything heretical in my experience with his ministry. If you're offering McManus' associations with these people as your only "documentation" of heresy then you know that is not only weak, but journalistically irresponsible and religiously presumptuous. If McManus has erred I would honestly like to know because I have other friends who have read "The Barbarian Way" and seem to enjoy his ministry also. I would like to see the actual quotes from McManus' writings and teachings that you believe document his heresy. If you can produce that, I would be happy to concede with your assertion. I am not a McManus fan, McClaren fan or anybody else's cronie and am more than happy to go where the evidence points. (I had not even heard of Brian McClaren until CWN.) Guilt by association is far from meeting the burden of proof in the Bible for convicting someone of heresy. You know that. Until you have produced the evidence, I'm going to exercise the rule of 1 Co. 13, i.e, believing the best about my brothers in Christ, which is exactly what every other believer following your column should do. 'Nuff said.
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Re: Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist ChurchPart I
| Posted On: 12/14/06 08:44:25 PM |
Age 40, TX |
Greg Koukl has two interesting articles on the emergent church. I think he and Ken Silva arrive at the same place with completely different styles. Ken "names names" which makes it seem more personal or judgmental (although it is not) while Greg gives us some guidelines to test these men. I think you will see that McManus may get into some mystical stuff but I dont think he has said anything that would lead us to believe he denies the truth of Scripture.
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Re: Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist ChurchPart I
| Posted On: 12/14/06 01:47:48 PM |
Age 51, NH |
Meaning no disrespect but I suspect you actually aren't interested in the actual evidence. As I said to your other comment, paraphrasing Blaise Pascal: "there's more than enough evidence to link McManus to Emergent philosophies, but there will never be enough evidence for him who just will not see."
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Re: Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist Church
| Posted On: 12/14/06 01:43:19 PM |
Age 51, NH |
Regarding Mark Driscoll, I personally think the jury is still out about just how far removed he actually is. However, due to space limitations I do not note what say in the article as it appears here. However, at http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/12/the_emergent_ta.html I do include a live link within to his site where Driscoll explains this. I hope that helps. :-) Pastor Ken
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Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist ChurchPart I
| Posted On: 12/14/06 12:32:04 PM |
Age 57, CA |
It is truly the sign of the times. The apostate church is alive and growing. I was raised a Southern Baptist, my father being a Southern Baptist preacher, during the 50's and 60's. A very conservative Southern Baptist Convention at that time and very connected with scripture. These are the times that the Lord warned us about and only the true elect of God will be able to discern truth from fallacy. May God prepare all His people to be as steadfast in our convictions and ability in seeing the truth and not be taken in by this heretical movement. May the Lord come quickly for us as the time is nearing for His return.
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Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist Church
| Posted On: 12/14/06 08:35:21 AM |
Age 40, MS |
I have belonged to Southern Baptist Chuches all my life and have been active in them most of my adult life. I have always tried to make sure before I joined ANY church that it was sound-biblically and doctrinally. I have also spent time researching Southern Baptist Doctrine and I follow, through the Baptist Record, decisions made during the Conventions. Like any human organization, I cannot say I am in total agreement w/ everything they decide, but for the most part, they are pretty close to Biblical teachings and unlike other well-established denominations, have yet to endorse and embrace the homosexual/pro-abortion agenda. But this is news to me and I thank the writer for highlighting it and I will be looking for these names, buzz-words, and terminology very closely.
I had the fortune (or misfortune) of hearing part of the Brian McLaren interview w/ the man spouting the heresy of the cross and hell being false advertising. I could not bring myself to listen to it all, because I bordered on outrage and nausea.
The other aspect this brings to mind is the parallel between what is happening now and what Paul tried to warn the chuches about in his writings and then later in Revelations w/ the letters to the 7 chuches. Wouldn't it be incredible if we could go back in time to see what was happening there then and how closely it reflects our times now? Isn't it even MORE AMAZING that we have the word of GOD and can do that very thing and read and BE WARNED by GOD to be wary of false prophets and all of the other things He tells us to look for and look out for. I'm sorry this is so long but ...He who has ears to hear (and I guess , in this case, eyes to read)
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Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist Church
| Posted On: 12/14/06 08:26:02 AM |
Age 28, WI |
In this article, which I truly agree with, you cite that Mark Driscoll was a part of the movement from its roots.
While this is true, I think it is only fair of you to then clarify that as people like Brian Mclaren became involved and Mark realized the direction the group was taking, he left the group because they didn't follow biblical teaching.
I think it lumps him in with these heretical teachers while he made the choice to separate from them and has since spent much time speaking out against the teaching they put forward.
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Re: The Emergent Takeover of the Southern Baptist ChurchPart I
| Posted On: 12/14/06 12:26:02 AM |
Age 36, TX |
Ken, 'still followin' ya' on all of this to hear what information you will bring, so I can make an informed judgment. Thanks.
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