Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:38:24 AM |
Age 46, NJ |
Well, Pastior Baumann must've given up on CGH & used the Calvary Chapel formula, which is to get back & teach the Bible from cover to cover, verse by verse. Actually Calvary Chapel "stole" the idea from Jesus Himself, but it's ok, He let us do that!!!
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:37:58 AM |
Age 62, IA |
He is right. We are growing hugh churches of fluff. Our churches are no longer Christ centered institutions of Biblical truth, merely social centers.
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:27:37 AM |
Age 56, SK |
Your words challenge the reader and cut to the heart of the problems of all of us. By not mentioning anyone by name we are encouraged to examine ourselves and apply your experience to our own. Thank you for your inspiring words and a hearty "Amen"
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:26:18 AM |
Age 53, PA |
Amen! That is what Christ teaches in "Great Commission". That is " Making Disciples ".
Thanks.
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:24:29 AM |
Age 47, TX |
Thank you. I agree that we should not be concerned about Church growth. I'm a deacon
in a Church that is in a older neighborhood.
In a recent deacon's meeting. A fellow deacon
said that "We need to reach out to the people
with the two hundred and the one hundred thousand homes rather than the people in our
Church neighborhood". I couldn't beleive that he said that. He concerned about how much people give. We should be concerned about doing what God says and he will take care of our needs!
Franklin
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:23:48 AM |
Age 41, AL |
Amen! Praise God that he spoke to you in this way! The C.G.M. can be a very dangerous substance. I pray many more people in church leadership will be drawn by the Spirit of God to do what you have done. Bless you!
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:21:56 AM |
Age 52, WA |
Congratulations Ray on having your blinders removed. Be prepared to have your numbers start to shrink. People hate the Truth of God for the most part. They don't like to be uncomfortable and the Bible makes everyone uncomfortable sooner or later. I hope you survive to speak the Truth for years to come.Be prepared to learn things you had no idea could possibly be, but are...
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:17:41 AM |
Age 47, FL |
This is one of the best articles I have read! Thank you for posting it.
Yes, the Church needs to grow. But the church is a group of called out BELIEVERS, not unbelievers.
Thus if we want to see the Church grow, we need to reach out to the lost, where the lost are, then once they are saved, bring them into the Church.
I.e. Instead of being an inviting Church, we need to be an invading Church.
That requires strong believers, thus we can't have a weak Church.
Kees
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:11:41 AM |
Age 51, AR |
Thanks for this article. It is encouraging to see someone write about the fact they "were" involved with the church growth movement, but with further study came out of it. It seems there are many who are not willing to admit their error. We can all fall into error if we are not careful to measure every teaching by God's Word. Especially in these times, as we long to see people saved, we still must stay on the alert to false teaching. May God bless those pastors who are remaining faithful to defend His Word, yet may be seeing no conversions. I believe that too is a sign of the times, but also that there is a great need for pastors to feed their flocks, even if they remain small. (Praise God for his faithful servants!)
Thanks again!
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:11:40 AM |
Age 49, OH |
I agree with the premise contained in this article. As I reflect on the messages preached from the pulpit Sunday after Sunday, few contain the gospel which we are told to preach. There is a place for the self-help messages, but the focal must begin with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:00:58 AM |
Age 18, WI |
I think he is right. The main focus of the church should not be outreach but should be discipliship of the believers. The main imperative in Matthew 28 is " make disciples of all nations."
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:50:25 AM |
Age 56, GA |
As a member of a Christian Retreat Center who has felt the pulse of the "CHURCH" for some time now I assure you your article could not be any closer to the heart of GOD. The Body of Christ has become too casual with the things entrusted to them by GOD. GOD did not make man to serve with comfort, entertainment, nor their own agenda and ideas of what that might look like. No, HE gave a clear picture and true commission; pick up your cross and follow ME. Without HIS WORD, HIS WILL, and HIS KINGDOM PURPOSES you got programs, data bases, facilities, and performance.
beginning of the creation of God;
Rev. 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev. 3:17 Because thou sayest *, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev. 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:45:43 AM |
Age 42, IL |
I'm going to take the middle of the road approach here....I think. Here is my observation. I believe the God called people such as Bill Hybels to ministry. Bill created an unique style of ministry that has bore great fruit. BUT the problem is with Willow Creek and others like that is that they have had so many other pastors looking at what they are doing and they think "wow, we need to do ministry that way". Thus a market is created for church growth "how to" books. The PROBLEM is that what worked in Barrington for the most part WILL NOT work any place else.
Each church is unique. Every town is unique. Each has its own culture based on the history of the town or church, its social economic status, education level, type of work -blue collar vs.white collar, etc. As a pastor I need to find out what type of ministry reaches the people in my community. Every pastor needs to use their God given creativity to reach the people in his community. Relying on the 'how to' books will only cause one to have great frustration and failure. I have only skimmed through a few of those books and what i read about any creative ideas i have to ask...would something like this work in my community.
I know my feedack is getting long...so i won't comment on music or preaching. I would if I had the space.
Pastor Dave Eden pastordave@logonix.net
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:42:25 AM |
Age 49, WI |
While I agree with many of the points made in the article, I feel the need to express concern about the "throw the baby out with the bath water" aspect of some of the comments. I believe we must be careful in our criticism to be very specific about what is truly biblically incorrect. I have yet to find a scripture that declares specifically that multi-media screens, music that is entertaining and large congregations are errant. Microphones were a new way for pastors to communicate in their day, Bach's music played on a harpsichord was considered a modern form of entertainment in his day and I believe the 5000 were probably considered a pretty large congregation in Jesus's day. My church does utilize all of these items. It is also a fairly large church compared to many of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod churches in our area. And connections are a VERY important part of our church. But our mission statement is Connecting People to Life in Jesus. All of our programs are dedicated, not to the growth of our church, but to the individuals growth in Jesus Christ and in fellowship with other believers. All of our "self - help programs, like our Mom - to - Mom classes which draw moms from all over the area, are focused on where ALL of our help comes from...the owners manual..The Bible. Every program we offer is in conjuction with studying God's Word. And though we do reach out to people where they are, as Jesus did (remember the whole eating with sinners thing) our goal is to help each of the people we touch to grown in their faith and spiritual maturity. We start with "milk" but are ALWAYS moving toward "MEAT" as the Bible tells us to. And we DO NOT sacrifice proper theology to reach people. So while the author might look at our church, as many very critical people in our own denomonation do, and see the screens, and hear the music and the large numbers and write us off as a Church Growth Hormone Church...I would challenge people to actually come to our services, hear our pastor preach, learn about our programs and most importantly, learn how many hungery are being fed, naked are being clothed, churches & schools are being built abroad by our members in Jesus name and how many people are being reached with the word of God. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, please. God Bless.
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:41:49 AM |
Age 25, TX |
This was a great article in respect to Church Growth Hormone. There was a time where my priorties were about numbers in the church and not the spiritual condition of the congregation. Now I consider them family and helping them out in every way possible. The bible calls us to be doers of the word instead of listeners. So this is now my mission and my motto.
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:40:36 AM |
Age 45, CA |
Thank you for this article and observation. God is beginning to search the heart of His shepherds and see if there are any that truly are after Him... Why do we as a people of God put the same value upon ministry as the world asigns value; money, influence, numbers and visability, when we have been given Eternity as a reward? I don't know, other than we are no longer living as if Christ could return at any moment and we have yielded to the "scoffing spirit" that Peter addressed that speaks, "Where is the Promise of His coming" and have begun to give ourselves to, "the deceitfulness of riches, the cares of this life and the desires of others things..." God help us to not be friends of this world, but friends of You and have our delight in you and you alone!
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:38:31 AM |
Age 55, FL |
I'm glad the author got his bearings straight. That has to be our #1 priority.
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:29:54 AM |
Age 51, FL |
I am forwarding this article to every "Church Growth" advocate I know. This article is very revealing and convicting.I know ministers who feel that those who are opposed to the "Seeker Friendly" movement are out of touch with this generation and their needs. They feel it is only those of us that are passed 40 who have concerns. God's word never changes, it is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow!
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:15:35 AM |
Age 61, MS |
Bro. Baumann...you have no idea how elated I am to have read of your transformation back to God's Word! My husband and two other deacons from our former church were voted out in a public business meeting last April. It was the most horrible ordeal to have gone through! In fact, it was our story that was printed in the Wall Street Journal last September. People in that meeting actually stood and cheered at the demise of theses men's church affiliation...they were jubilant.Please know how thankful I am to see you taking a stand for Christ against this terrible movement you have so amply dubbed "church growth harmone". The antidote for this drug is repentance!
|
Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 10:06:53 AM |
Age 34, MO |
Pastor,
I thank you for your article. It couldn't have been stated better.
We are seeing the results (side-effects in your words)of an approach to "ministry" that is man-centered to the core. One need only converse a few minutes with the average professing believer today to see the devastating effects this Christian Lite pragmatism has had on them.
I loved the last line in your article about "training". What I hear you saying is that true growth is measured in one's MATURING IN THE FAITH, not the number of butt's in seats. I hear you saying pastors should be focused on DISCIPLING BELIEVERS. These discipled believers who then know what they believe and WHY THEY BELIEVE IT will then be armed to be effective for Christ in the world.
I'll keep a copy of your article for future reference...it is that good.
Blessings,
Jimmy
|
|
|
|
|
