Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 04:51:09 PM |
Age 39, FL |
Once again, it seems thatwe missed the boat. If all you believe is that church growth is about numbers, then you are right. Our mission is to make disciples of all nations. That is the numbers game. The reason why there is a debate of this is because our motives are wrong. When our motives are wrong, then we fall into idolatry. The true problem is not growth but why we do what we do. Repentance is based on wrong motives, not numbers. If we tell people only about salvation, then it is just a numbers game. Jesus reached thousands and focused on internal change. Let us all examine why this topic stirs us deeply and ask yourself if you are doing it for God or yourself.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 04:50:47 PM |
Age 52, GA |
Good. Now, it's time to focus on being righteous, not religious. Time to focus on "Knowing God and doing the things that please Him." (my paraphrase of Eccl. 12:13). It's time to make the 'called out' what they were intended to be - God's family.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 04:12:09 PM |
Age 60, GA |
I agree 100%, but it is mild insight. The Lord has HIS formula for life. There is no Methodical-Inductive w/o doing it HIS way only. You deny that! problem- pastors aren't prophets. They don't see deeply enough into HIM or the Word to know the right methods/direction to take.
BIGGER PROBLEM - THEY are the only prophets they listen to, and aren't even pastors, but preacher/teachers. This is why after centuries of them and their followers loathing God's way, HE's left. He'll not return to these local pseudo-do-gooders. These are not HIS. This is prophecy = Right or wrong, no debate. PS - Pvbs 14:12 is out of context. Ask if you wish it made known.
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 03:19:37 PM |
Age 61, TX |
I, too, applaud the discernment of the writer of this article! We have men preaching in mega-churches, some of whom have never been to seminary, let alone graduated from one, and who are preaching "feel good about yourself" psychology. They're getting obscenely rich doing it, but they're creating Laodicean churches at best. When did you last hear a pastor preach that God's mercy is balanced with His justice? Many people who make their Sunday morning appearances are merely pew-warmers that are being led to hell, because they have never met the true Jesus Christ! Churches need to be inductively teaching Scripture, based on the who, what, how, when, and why it was written, as Precept classes teach. How can a pastor say he believes the Bible is God's Word to us, and put it aside when he preaches? I hold certain seminaries responsible for some of the dilutions of Scripture and compromises that have taken place. Compromise and tolerance has no place in rightly dividing the Word of God! God bless the author, and all who care!
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 03:10:01 PM |
Age 56, ID |
AMEN!! Pray for all the pastors who are obediently preaching the Word that reflects the point of this article. Ours does in Boise, ID. :o)
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 02:22:50 PM |
Age 54, NZ |
Predictably, there are many responses to this article that seek to put up some kind of defense and to find some middle ground. As one respondent put it, "Let's not throw out the baby with the bath-water." The problem is that as Jesus said, we cannot serve two masters. If we begin, in any degree, to yield to peoples' demand to be entertained, to that same degree we must compromise true Biblical worship. Only a divided heart imagines that tailoring our church meetings to suit our own tastes instead of conformity to the Biblical model could possibly be pleasing to God. The term, "Church Service" does not refer to service to the people, but service to God. As a pastor for many years, I have faced a constant battle to keep the world out of the church, and the personal cost has been huge, as Ray will shortly discover. But in this matter at least, there are still some of us who aim to die with a clear conscience. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world."
- Tumbleweed
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 02:02:12 PM |
Age 51, ID |
You have missed the point. Bill Hybels has been selling Church Growth Hormone since the start. He went out to the other church leaders and invited them to his conferences. He has continued to hold up his church as a model to follow. He was a classmate of Rick Warren at Robert Schuller's humanistic school of church growth.
He has preached what the people want to hear not what they need to hear.
Pastor Dave, maybe you need to stop trying to meet the community's worldly needs and focus on their spiritual needs. The world does not need an offer of a latte or rousing entertainment or even day-care to find their way to a church. They need the Holy Spirit's proding to seek out a sound Biblical church that can show them the answers to the need of their souls. It is the Holy Spirit's job to open their hearts. Your job is to preach the Word.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 01:49:58 PM |
Age 64, NV |
I believe Mr. Baumann is right on target
I see not where the world is getting
anymore churchy, but to the contrary, the
church is just getting more worldly.
The church like the world ,is today all
about money. Preachers get on t.v. and
tell us ignorant believers about a book
that we just have to have to make us
stronger in the LORD and we can have, for
a gift offering of x ammount of dollars.
If that were the case and they really did
love the LORD it would be free . We have
to many Simons in pulpits today and in
the media. Read Acts ch-8-9thru 24.
Danny Figiel
pastor
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 01:42:31 PM |
Age 59, WI |
I believe I have attended the church you speak of. If I'm correct, my daughter has joined your church, leaving our very conserative church. I have heard the Pastors at this church speak about how many former Catholics have joined, aprox, 2000, last time I attended.To join they must believe in Jesus and they are now members. All of my Catholic friends will say they believe in Jesus, but they also believe they need works to be saved. The Catholics who join this church are given no instructions on what the Bible says about who Jesus is.A Catholic friend who joined this church did not know that Jesus was the only way.So what good are numbers? This church(if I'm talking about the same one) promotes Rick Warren, and they sell Joyce Meyers in their bookstore along with all the other "in" authors. I was in a Rick Warren Purpose driven Bible study at this church. We did not study what the Bible said-only what Rick said. This church's next mission is to build a hugh community gym area and invite the community-shouldn't the numbers be left to God-and shouldn't they preach the Word?
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 01:26:37 PM |
Age 59, CA |
Jesus said, "I will build My church!"
Jesus said, "I want My house full!"
The Holy Spirit carefully monitors the growth of the church in the Book of Acts.
"God our savior will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."
"It is His will that none should perish but that all should come to repentance."
Heaven will have such large numbers of people that no one can count them.
Numbers of people are important to God. Jesus knows how many sheep He has. Don't take a stand against church growth. Church growth is obviously important to God.
Just don't lose your biblical priorities in an attempt to feed your own ego or become more important than your brother.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 01:25:07 PM |
Age 63, OR |
The Jews have had over 4000 years to come to realize the error of their selfish ways regarding God, and 2000 years about Jesus; so, it shouldn't be too amazing to realize that Christians too can be slow to understand the error of their ways ... even when their brothers and sisters continue to reveal their sin of following men rather than God! Just as this article centers...the church growth movement (progressive liberalization of the church) is man-centered not Christ-centered.
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Re: Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 12:38:21 PM |
Age 40, TN |
Thank you. I'm glad I am not the only one who thought the baby was going out with the bath water. Well said!
Pastor David Smith
Lenoir City First Church of the Nazarene
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 12:33:26 PM |
Age 49, FL |
Typical conservative christian nonsense! You pretend to be a Bible believer but if so use it in your arguement rather than argueing with your ignorant and biased opinion!! I will apply Proverbs 16:25 right back at ya!
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 12:28:07 PM |
Age 40, TN |
I understand the point and agree in principle but I really must ask for much more careful consideration in some of the specifics: ie;
The ingredients are as follows: man-centered theology,(I preach based on Christ-centered theology) relevant messages that solve peoples problems by meeting their needs,(Are you suggesting we preach irrelevant messages that don't solve problems and does not address peoples needs? That is definitely not a Christocentric model if that is the case. Jesus always confronted people at the deepest point of thier need without fear or favor) events and programs that reach out to the community,(Are you saying we ought to do away with events and programs that reach out and by some means wins people to the Lord? Are we to be completely unconcerned with larger social, moral, cultural, matters and only stick to the in-house issues? Christ sure seemed concerned with matters of social justice, or moral character and cultural blindness) and music that is contemporary and entertaining (How about music in Worship that draws our focus to Christ? Is that contemporary? Traditional? Blended? Can you define for me which "Style" of music is biblical for worship? I am part of a tradition that has utilizes many styles and I've witnessed every style coming off as entertainment. The point of using the tool of music, whatever style or combination of styles, is to focus on Christ in worship.) For best results, remove pews(we still have pews and what it wrong if we don't?), dress casual,(Does God care if I am in a tie or not? Does my attire demonstrate a modicum of modesty so as not to distract others from focusing on Christ? If so then thank God I can come to worship Him just as I am without one plea) and install a 5000 lumen projector(Ours is only 3000 because our sanctuary does not necessitate that large of a projector. For those who still prefer the Hymnal it is in the pew back.) If taken weekly (not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, regularly, intentionally for proclamation, teaching, discipleship, and genuine fellowship) and if you follow a regimented marketing strategy,(Pray together corporately and individually in a disciplined regular way until you hear from heaven) you are guaranteed growth.(Spiritual and numerical) The side effects may include unbelievers in leadership, false converts, uncommitted members, and shallow minds.(Yes if you don't love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. Yes if you don't GO into all the world, preaching the Gospel, making disciples, teaching them to obey all that Christ Commanded.)
People are coming to know Christ as their Saviour, and they are being discipled, and given opportunities to take that Good News to others in service to our community, our nation, and even beyond our borders. We have a big screen, we sing a blend of contemporay and traditional music, We reach out into our community with events and programs, we cooperate with other denominations to evangelize the lost and to feed the poor. I have a whole congregation of people who love the Lord with all thier heart, soul, mind, and strength and love their neighbors as themselves. They are bringing them to the church to find the Lord.
There is no hormone! It's a myth! But just because we are growing using some of the tools mentioned above does not mean we are unbiblical or operating out of an unbiblical worldview. Be more careful and give more thought to what you are putting out there. I feel like you used a blanket to smother me and every other pastor and church that is growing using "tools". We are not compromising the Great Command or the Great Commission and as long as I have breath in me I will never put my integrity away from me in this.
Pastor David D. Smith
Lenoir City First Church of the Nazarene
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 12:27:34 PM |
Age 60, AZ |
Finally, an article that let's me know that there is at least one pastor who understands one of the basic problems with today's churches!
From worship (or what passes for worship!)to the watered down and almost apologetic messages that I have heard coming from some pulpits, today's pastors are so concerned with what they see as being relevent and successful that they are moving right into apostacy.
We use the world's tools (because our Lord can use a little help getting his message out of course), make people feel good, increase the numbers and walla! You have a successful church.
Then we wonder why our light has dimmed and we are no longer salt. How tragic.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 12:25:04 PM |
Age 24, WA |
Amen Brother!
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 12:08:33 PM |
Age 33, FL |
What an excellent article. This is the struggle for the life of the Church today. So many Churches have lost site of the great commission.
Look at Mark 15:15. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Notice that Jesus didn't say, let them bring the world to you so you can love them. It says to GO, as in take Jesus to the world. The World should not change or influence the Church, instead, the Church should change and influence the World.
Keep Preaching the Truth, yes the ABSOLUTE TRUTH!
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 12:04:32 PM |
Age 43, WA |
thank God someone from the pulpit has seen the error of focusing on numbers!
Now I have hope that the Lord is still moving
within the church.
I stopped attending church regularly for the reasons written in this article. It seemed people were losing interest in the word of God, the will of God, and following Christ according to the word of God.(within the church body)
It is my hope that THIS message will spread throughout the pulpits all over the U.S.!
the members need something we can trust... which is the word of God (in Christ) without wavering, and a willingness follow Him.
Thank you Pastor, for your faithfulness to God. You don't know how long I have been waiting to hear these very words. thank you for encouraging me in my walk.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:57:27 AM |
Age 52, NY |
Pastor,
Thank you for your honesty. There are many Pastors today who need to hear your message. The next revival will depand upon repentance by our leadership. Which of today's success driven ministers will be willing to pray for a drought, economic failure or national set back to correct our wayward culture? These circumstances will inconvienence our lifestyle significantly, yet when worldliness is the problem, our lifestyles do need to be intterupted.
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Re: Church Growth Hormone - a Biblically Banned Substance
| Posted On: 12/07/06 11:56:18 AM |
Age 36, MI |
AMEN!! Far too often the church focuses on numbers instead of the true growth that leads people to Christ. In my denomination, we have the Annual Church Profile that we fill out, most denominations probably have the same. But this profile is all about numbers, attendance and baptism. It asks nothing about how the pastor is growing in His relationship with the Lord. It asks nothing about what evidence there is that the congregation is growing spiritually. It is like an assumption that if they are converted and baptized, they will automatically grow into disciples.
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